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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Andreas,<br>
<br>
I have made the suggestions that X3D V4 include a "skin &
bones" animation node that is not H-Anim. This would be a basic
skin animation based on movement of bones, independent of any
H-Anim body structure or naming conventions. It is needed when
animating flexible material such as cables, hoses, material, etc.
This node could form the basics of H-Anim skin animation. I do not
have a formal written proposal at this time.<br>
<br>
Leonard Daly<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAKdk67uuJLnVthvYUWvJR_6w8JAVV90oVgV-yT2RPAFzWyW9Bg@mail.gmail.com">
<pre wrap="">The Nancy prototypes example does not have scripts and was therefore
easier to adapt. It turns out the included HUD was the only obstacle
for have it work with x3dom and the protoexpander:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://x-ite-nancy-protos.glitch.me/index.xhtml">https://x-ite-nancy-protos.glitch.me/index.xhtml</a>
uses
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://x-ite-nancy-protos.glitch.me/NancyPrototypesNoHUD.json">https://x-ite-nancy-protos.glitch.me/NancyPrototypesNoHUD.json</a>
The HUD reorientation routing is disabled here but the animation buttons work.
So this should make this example a good target for basic, native hanim.
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19774-1/V2.0/HAnim/ObjectInterfaces.html">http://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19774-1/V2.0/HAnim/ObjectInterfaces.html</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19775-1/V3.3/Part01/components/hanim.html">http://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19775-1/V3.3/Part01/components/hanim.html</a>
are the specifications to go by ?
Are Protos in <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19774-1/V2.0/HAnim/BodyDimensionsAndLOAs.html#LOA0ExampleSourceInVRML">http://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19774-1/V2.0/HAnim/BodyDimensionsAndLOAs.html#LOA0ExampleSourceInVRML</a>
the same as the Nancy protos ?
-Andreas
On Mon, May 28, 2018 at 11:20 PM, Andreas Plesch
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:andreasplesch@gmail.com"><andreasplesch@gmail.com></a> wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Ok, I will try to take out the scripts and make the example work with
x3dom and John's expander, maybe further simplify. The next step would
be to take a stab at blindly porting the proto's to x3dom and thereby
discover potential problems.
On Mon, May 28, 2018 at 7:26 PM, Joseph D Williams
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:joedwil@earthlink.net"><joedwil@earthlink.net></a> wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Real fine, Andreas. Nancy is a ‘simple’ humanoid where simple means that
geometry is child of segment which gets driven by joint. When the joint
moves a segment, then the geometry moves as expected. Simple means the basic
hierarchy but no continuous-mesh skin.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
Simple or Basic humanoid may be good target target then. Perhaps Basic
is in a Profile ? I should look at the new spec.
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">As you can see from the protos, nothing special about x3d is required
because x3d is already so special – that is unless you wanna get some real
skin in the game.
Yes, there is no script required to do that ‘simple’ character, and the
protos do not require any scripting.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
ok.
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">The Nancy scripts are derived from the protos given in HAnim Part 1 Annex A
examples (VRML at this moment, but easy to figure out). So for a basic
humanoid there is nothing really new except the names of the various
humanoid skeleton and skin objects. Even the animations are completely
standard interpolators. Again, the only tough part is getting the skin to
work.
Also please notice in the spec where it is possible to create the
continuous-mesh skin from selected vertices of geometry that is part of a
segment. That is a possible way to leverage from geometries of the segments
to a full continuous-mesh surface.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
Sounds like something you really need a authoring system for.
-Andreas
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">A collection is here:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://hypermultimedia.com/x3d/hanim/HAnimCollection20130818/0MainStageScene0818.x3dv">http://hypermultimedia.com/x3d/hanim/HAnimCollection20130818/0MainStageScene0818.x3dv</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://hypermultimedia.com/x3d/hanim/HAnimCollection20130818/HAnimCollection20130818.zip">http://hypermultimedia.com/x3d/hanim/HAnimCollection20130818/HAnimCollection20130818.zip</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.hypermultimedia.com/x3d/JoeX3D/JoeX3D.htm">http://www.hypermultimedia.com/x3d/JoeX3D/JoeX3D.htm</a>
some other pieces:
Thanks and Best,
Joe
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://hypermultimedia.com/acontents.htm">http://hypermultimedia.com/acontents.htm</a>
From: Andreas Plesch
Sent: Monday, May 28, 2018 3:28 PM
To: Joseph D Williams
Cc: John Carlson; x3dom mlist; X3D Graphics public mailing list
Subject: Re: both X3DOM and X_ITE.
A quick follow up:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/Basic/HumanoidAnimation/NancyDivingProtoInstancesIndex.html">http://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/Basic/HumanoidAnimation/NancyDivingProtoInstancesIndex.html</a>
seems to be a good example for proto-based HAnim.
It works in x_ite and perhaps is expandable.
The scripts do not seem to part of the proto's ? If not, perhaps it is
possible to simplify and take those out ?
-Andreas
On Mon, May 28, 2018 at 6:09 PM, Andreas Plesch <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:andreasplesch@gmail.com"><andreasplesch@gmail.com></a>
wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">On Mon, May 28, 2018 at 4:24 PM, Joseph D Williams
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap=""><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:joedwil@earthlink.net"><joedwil@earthlink.net></a> wrote:
</pre>
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<pre wrap="">
</pre>
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<pre wrap="">From: Andreas Plesch
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<pre wrap="">There just does not seem a lot of demand or requests by users or
</pre>
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</pre>
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<pre wrap="">customers. Of course, this may be a chicken and egg problem.
</pre>
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<pre wrap="">And, that if you hae soething that works, like contact and instant, maybe
</pre>
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</pre>
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<pre wrap="">you don’t need to complain.
</pre>
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</pre>
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<pre wrap="">Or on the web look for other,widely available technologies.
</pre>
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<pre wrap="">Contributions to x3dom or x_ite are always welcome, in any case.
</pre>
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<pre wrap="">Great a contribution to either is a contribution to X3D.
</pre>
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<pre wrap="">Well said.
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<pre wrap="">For x3dom, my interest would be probably the glTF angle. glTF has
</pre>
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<pre wrap="">
</pre>
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<pre wrap="">character animation. Here is an example:
</pre>
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</pre>
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<pre wrap="">
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.donmccurdy.com/2017/11/06/creating-animated-gltf-characters-with-mixamo-and-blender/">https://www.donmccurdy.com/2017/11/06/creating-animated-gltf-characters-with-mixamo-and-blender/</a>>
</pre>
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<pre wrap="">Great, I will look. The basic x3d hanim skeleton, bindings, animations,
and
</pre>
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<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">geometries can be stored in gltf. I hope I can look back in the hanim
</pre>
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<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">archives to see a comparison I did. No doubt gltf can transport the good
</pre>
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<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">stuff with the only problem that gltf uses unit quats instead of
axis-angle.
</pre>
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</pre>
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<pre wrap="">
</pre>
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<pre wrap="">x3dom uses quats internally anyways, I think rotation field values are
</pre>
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<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">immediately converted at parsing.
</pre>
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<pre wrap="">The best explanation, apart from studying glTF loaders, is apparently
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<pre wrap="">in this figure, sorry about that:
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<pre wrap="">
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://raw.githubusercontent.com/KhronosGroup/glTF/master/specification/2.0/figures/gltfOverview-2.0.0a.png">https://raw.githubusercontent.com/KhronosGroup/glTF/master/specification/2.0/figures/gltfOverview-2.0.0a.png</a>
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<pre wrap="">OK, I will look for more recent info, but I don’t think anything in this
has
</pre>
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<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">changed. Structure and data – names may be different but the data and its
</pre>
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<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">application is the same. Now I know there may be some new tech but for
the
</pre>
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</pre>
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<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">basics stuf, not much has changed in the last 20 years since hanim was
</pre>
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</pre>
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<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">specified.
</pre>
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</pre>
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<pre wrap="">The glTF spec. itself, I think, refers to the figure to explain meaning.
</pre>
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</pre>
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<pre wrap="">translation of a simple glTF character to an HAnim humanoid would be a
</pre>
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</pre>
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<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">good first step.
</pre>
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<pre wrap="">A better first step would be to transcode an HAnim humanoid into gltf and
</pre>
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</pre>
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<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">back again. From what I saw it would work. After all, it is all the same
</pre>
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</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">structure and same data. I was going to work on the Boxman and the
JoeKick
</pre>
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<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">models in the x3d hanim example archives.
</pre>
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</pre>
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<pre wrap="">
</pre>
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</pre>
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<pre wrap="">Well, these are two steps. The simplest rigged skining glTF example seems
to be:
</pre>
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</pre>
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<pre wrap="">
</pre>
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</pre>
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<pre wrap="">
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://github.com/KhronosGroup/glTF-Sample-Models/tree/master/2.0/RiggedSimple">https://github.com/KhronosGroup/glTF-Sample-Models/tree/master/2.0/RiggedSimple</a>
</pre>
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<pre wrap="">A functional, minimal subset of HAnim of nodes and/or a Proto-based
</pre>
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</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">implementation of the nodes would also help implementers.
</pre>
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<pre wrap="">
</pre>
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</pre>
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<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Of course we have the proto-based nodes for HAnim where the geometries
are
</pre>
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<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">children of Segments (bones) and we animate the skeleton. A prototype for
</pre>
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<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">seamless skin animation is Boxman in x3d hanim archives - it needs a
fancy
</pre>
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</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">script to move skin. Since there are no other features of x3d that
</pre>
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<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">approximate the way skin is animated, there are no scriptless prototypes.
</pre>
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</pre>
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<pre wrap="">
</pre>
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</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Ok: Here is the link:
</pre>
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<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/Basic/HumanoidAnimation/HAnimPrototypesIndex.html">http://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/Basic/HumanoidAnimation/HAnimPrototypesIndex.html</a>
</pre>
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</pre>
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<pre wrap="">
</pre>
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</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">But I do not see scripts ?
</pre>
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</pre>
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<pre wrap="">
</pre>
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</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Will there be an proto update for the new version of HAnim ?
</pre>
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</pre>
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<pre wrap="">
</pre>
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</pre>
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<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">A main challenge will be probably the requirement to have vertex
</pre>
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</pre>
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<pre wrap="">geometry manipulation in a shader on the GPU. This is done only for
</pre>
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</pre>
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<pre wrap="">displacement textures of a CommonSurfaceShader node currently in
</pre>
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</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
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<pre wrap="">x3dom.
</pre>
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</pre>
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</pre>
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<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Yes, we need to control individual ‘skin’ vertices according to a simple
</pre>
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<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">weighting algorithm depending upon rotation of one or more joints. That
has
</pre>
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</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">been a problem, yet it is so basic, that and morph shape, that we should
</pre>
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<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">have both features outside the Humanoid container.
</pre>
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</pre>
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<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Yes, morphing seems generally useful. I think glTF may use weighted
</pre>
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</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">matrices but not sure.
</pre>
</blockquote>
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</pre>
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<pre wrap="">
</pre>
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</pre>
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<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">If anyone wants to learn character animation, anything you learn about
x3d
</pre>
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</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">hanim will not be a waste of time. X3d hanim still documents an industry
</pre>
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<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">standard approach where inputs were taken from all major toolmakers
because
</pre>
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</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">strangely, even back in the late 1990’s there was great input from users
to
</pre>
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</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">the biggies that they had to allow data to be exported and transported
</pre>
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<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">between applications. Only the names were changed to prevent favoritism
and
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">preserve innocence – ooh, and to bring the secretive data structures and
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">bindings out into the open.
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Ok. I will say that the HAnim prototypes which do not need scripts
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">should be possible, even straightforward to port to x3dom and probably
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">x_ite native nodes. John's protoexpander probably already could deal
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">with those. So the main challenge probably really is the GPU based
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">vertex displacing.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Is there any use in having the Grouping/Transform type HAnim nodes only ?
</pre>
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<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Best, -Andreas
</pre>
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<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
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<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
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<pre wrap="">
</pre>
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<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">On Mon, May 28, 2018 at 10:42 AM, Joseph D Williams
</pre>
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</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
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<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap=""><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:joedwil@earthlink.net"><joedwil@earthlink.net></a> wrote:
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">both X3DOM and X_ITE …
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">The discussions about both X3DOM and X_ITE are, to me, missing a very
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">important feature. Neither of these tools can do HAnim skeleton
controlled
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">deformable skin. This is a very important feature, lending itself to
many
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">important applications in addition to HAnim. There have been several
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">discussions about the hanim joint(s) to deformable skin bindings and as
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">far
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">as I have seen, there is no doubt that the way x3d specifies the basic,
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">most
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">simple, and most transportable technique to achieve the result. So, as
the
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">HAnim standard takes the next step, why not move a bit toward
implementing
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">this important capability in your browsers. BSContact does it, I think
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Instant does it mostly but x3dom and x_ite don’t.
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Thanks and Best,
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Joe
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<p><br>
</p>
<div class="moz-signature">-- <br>
<font class="tahoma,arial,helvetica san serif" color="#333366">
<font size="+1"><b>Leonard Daly</b></font><br>
3D Systems & Cloud Consultant<br>
LA ACM SIGGRAPH Past Chair<br>
President, Daly Realism - <i>Creating the Future</i>
</font></div>
</body>
</html>