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--></style></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink="#954F72"><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal>After the meeting, looking at the .md file we worked on, I edited further this cut at the V2.0 LOA4 joint/segment/site hierarchy.</p><p class=MsoNormal>Next is a closer look at the current 7250 definitions and replace the ones shown here, mainly from V1.0 with latest and greatest hopefully using the same x y z as V1 when the feature is the same</p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Thanks, </p><p class=MsoNormal>Joe</p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div style='mso-element:para-border-div;border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal style='border:none;padding:0in'><b>From: </b><a href="mailto:brutzman@nps.edu">Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV)</a><br><b>Sent: </b>Monday, November 12, 2018 6:42 PM<br><b>To: </b><a href="mailto:h-anim@web3d.org">Humanoid Animation (H-Anim) Working Group</a><br><b>Cc: </b><a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org">X3D Graphics public mailing list</a><br><b>Subject: </b>Re: [x3d-public] [h-anim] HAnim review: ISO 7250,Anthropometry and CAESAR references, ISO comments, github work on LOA tables</p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Weekly HAnim implementation teleconference minutes.</p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Attendees Joe Williams, William Glascoe, Don Brutzman.</p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>======================================================</p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>1. Joe and William are working on confirming that CAESAR landmarks are correct in current draft HAnim specification.</p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>a. William has obtained a non-sharable copy of ISO 7250 part 1, and it is very helpful.</p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal> ISO 7250-1:2017 Preview</p><p class=MsoNormal> Basic human body measurements for technological design --</p><p class=MsoNormal> Part 1: Body measurement definitions and landmarks</p><p class=MsoNormal> https://www.iso.org/standard/65246.html</p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal> ISO/TR 7250-2:2010 Preview</p><p class=MsoNormal> Basic human body measurements for technological design --</p><p class=MsoNormal> Part 2: Statistical summaries of body measurements from national populations</p><p class=MsoNormal> https://www.iso.org/standard/41249.html</p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal> ISO 7250-3:2015 Preview</p><p class=MsoNormal> Basic human body measurements for technological design --</p><p class=MsoNormal> Part 3: Worldwide and regional design ranges for use in product standards</p><p class=MsoNormal> https://www.iso.org/standard/64237.html</p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>b. *Dick have you obtained an ISO copy for us to work with* in an official capacity? We do need it... I have old copies circa 2015 so we need the latest.</p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>c. While searching for ISO 7250, also found the following pages of interest:</p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal> Wikipedia: Anthropometry</p><p class=MsoNormal> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropometry</p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal> Wikipedia: List of human-based units of measure</p><p class=MsoNormal> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_human-based_units_of_measure</p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal> Wikipedia: History of anthropometry</p><p class=MsoNormal> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_anthropometry</p><p class=MsoNormal>lists</p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>* Anthropometric Survey of Army Personnel: Methods and Summary Statistics 1988</p><p class=MsoNormal>* ISO 7250: Basic human body measurements for technological design, International Organization for Standardization, 1998.</p><p class=MsoNormal>* ISO 8559: Garment construction and anthropometric surveys — Body dimensions, International Organization for Standardization, 1989.</p><p class=MsoNormal>* ISO 15535: General requirements for establishing anthropometric databases, International Organization for Standardization, 2000.</p><p class=MsoNormal>* ISO 15537: Principles for selecting and using test persons for testing anthropometric aspects of industrial products and designs, International Organization for Standardization, 2003.</p><p class=MsoNormal>* ISO 20685: 3-D scanning methodologies for internationally compatible anthropometric databases, International Organization for Standardization, 2005.</p><p class=MsoNormal>* National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey. Anthropometry Procedures Manual. CDC: Atlanta, USA; 2007.</p><p class=MsoNormal>* Komlos, John (2010). "Anthropometric History: an Overview of a Quarter Century of Research" (PDF).</p><p class=MsoNormal>* Folia Anthropologica: tudományos és módszertani folyóirat. 9: 5–17. ISSN 1786-5654</p><p class=MsoNormal>* Pheasant, Stephen (1986). Bodyspace: anthropometry, ergonomics, and design. London; Philadelphia: Taylor & Francis. ISBN 0-85066-352-0. (A classic review of human body sizes.)</p><p class=MsoNormal>* Stewart A. "Kinanthropometry and body composition: A natural home for three dimensional photonic scanning". Journal of Sports Sciences, March 2010; 28(5): 455–457.</p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>d. William looked at obtaining a copy of original CAESAR reports... score! with some search we found</p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal> CIVILIAN AMERICAN AND EUROPEAN SURFACE ANTHROPOMETRY RESOURCE (CAESAR) FINAL REPORT, VOLUME I: SUMMARY</p><p class=MsoNormal> Air Force Research Lab (AFRL), June 2002, HE-WP-TR2002-0169</p><p class=MsoNormal> June 2002</p><p class=MsoNormal> https://humanics-es.com/CAESARvol1.pdf</p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal> CIVILIAN AMERICAN AND EUROPEAN SURFACE ANTHROPOMETRY RESOURCE (CAESAR), FINAL REPORT, VOLUME II: DESCRIPTIONS</p><p class=MsoNormal> Air Force Research Lab (AFRL), June 2002, KE-WP-TR2002-0170</p><p class=MsoNormal> http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a408374.pdf</p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>also Anthropometric Survey of Army Personnel: Methods and Summary Statistics 1988</p><p class=MsoNormal> http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a225094.pdf</p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>He and Joe will continue building out specification annex values for hands and feet.</p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>e. Interesting reference from 16 years ago. Perhaps with continuing effort we will someday achieve bringing this work to a successful conclusion:</p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal> A Web3D Based CAESAR Viewer</p><p class=MsoNormal> August 26, 2002 BY Sanford P. Ressler, Qiming Wang</p><p class=MsoNormal> https://www.nist.gov/publications/web3d-based-caesar-viewer</p><p class=MsoNormal> https://ws680.nist.gov/publication/get_pdf.cfm?pub_id=51046</p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>======================================================</p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>2. This past week we received comments HAnim DIS from ISO editors.</p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>They are copied into the Web3dConsortium github documents section for HAnim Architecture part 1 and HAnim Motion Animation part 2.</p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>a. https://github.com/Web3DConsortium/H-Anim/tree/master/ISO-IEC%2019774/ISO-IEC%2019774-1/ISO-IEC%2019774-1%20V2.0/ISO-IEC%2019774-1%20V2.0%20DIS%20Prep/Working%20documents</p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>b.https://github.com/Web3DConsortium/H-Anim/tree/master/ISO-IEC%2019774/ISO-IEC%2019774-2/ISO-IEC%2019774-2%20V2.0/ISO-IEC%2019774-2%20V2.0%20DIS%20Prep/Working%20Documents</p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>As reported earlier, these are almost completely editorial in nature and can be accomplished for review during Web3D Korea Chapter meeting in Seoul mid January 2019.</p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>So, if we finish hands/feet and fix LOA mismatches, we are close to being ready...</p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>======================================================</p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>3. Continued topic: various LOA tables have mismatched segment names</p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>a. Following discussion, to disambiguate "github HAnim" i renamed the public archive on github to HumanoidAnimation. Publicly reachable at</p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal> https://github.com/x3d/HumanoidAnimation</p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>b. LOA-0 and LOA-1 comparisons are complete in the comparison table:</p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal> Comparison Tables for Level Of Articulation (LOA)</p><p class=MsoNormal> https://github.com/x3d/HumanoidAnimation/blob/master/HAnimHierarchyWeb3d-19774-V2.0.md</p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>We next focused on first l_tarsal_interphalangeal</p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal> l_tarsal_interphalangeal : l_tarsal_distal_phalanx</p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Note that it is the same in LOA-2 and LOA-3, but is a mismatch in LOA-4:</p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal> l_tarsal_interphalangeal_1 : l_tarsal_distal_phalanx_1</p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>This is a MISMATCH for both left and right sides. Comparison table updated.</p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>That was a worrisome start... but then we are thrilled to note that all other entries appeared to be fully consistent, both for left and right sides.</p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>We finished LOA-2, LOA-3, and LOA-4. Hooray!</p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>This is a good reference. We will next need to resolve differences (~8 total). With left/right symmetry, there might only be ~4 mismatch differences across the LOAs.</p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>For the hand, there is also an inconsistency where lower LOAs correspond to LOA-4 thumb (finger 1) - for reaching and touching purposes, they should probably correspond to middle finger (finger 3) which is longest.</p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Once corrected, it seems to me that these annotated figures could directly replace the figures in the specification. They include the same information, with the addition of LOA information.</p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>We will look at the identified LOA inconsistency issues in our next meeting.</p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Following that, am hoping to continue to the annotation effort to show where the Sites are each best correlated to Segments. William may find more sites for us.</p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Since every Joint:Segment pair has a corresponding LOA, that means we will also be able to define corresponding LOA for each Site.</p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>This is a pretty huge step forward! It certainly was very difficult and felt like surgery to perform. Certainly couldn't have accomplished this without Joe's keen eyes throughout. Frequent refresh on github was also very helpful.</p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Elapsed time 3.5 hours! wow. Good to work on good work. All review comments welcome. Very respectfully submitted.</p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>For continuity with prior dialog, prior traffic follows.</p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>On 11/6/2018 11:56 AM, Nicholas Polys wrote:</p><p class=MsoNormal>> IMO</p><p class=MsoNormal>> very important to me that these names are persistent and additive</p><p class=MsoNormal>> </p><p class=MsoNormal>> PS</p><p class=MsoNormal>> </p><p class=MsoNormal>> https://www.iso.org/search.html?q=human%20landmark</p><p class=MsoNormal>> </p><p class=MsoNormal>> On Mon, Oct 29, 2018 at 9:17 PM Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <brutzman@nps.edu <mailto:brutzman@nps.edu>> wrote:</p><p class=MsoNormal>> </p><p class=MsoNormal>> Joe, William and I worked again today on HAnim. Joe's recent tables are pretty interesting.</p><p class=MsoNormal>> </p><p class=MsoNormal>> It is exceedingly hard just to stay synchronized on a simple teleconference while we talk and look at many different things.</p><p class=MsoNormal>> </p><p class=MsoNormal>> Motivated by Joe's example, we created a new HAnim project in the public github for X3D as a way to look at things. After experimenting with a few approaches, made some progress. Please see</p><p class=MsoNormal>> </p><p class=MsoNormal>> https://github.com/x3d/HAnim</p><p class=MsoNormal>> https://github.com/x3d/HAnim/blob/master/HAnimHierarchyWeb3d-19774-V2.0.md</p><p class=MsoNormal>> </p><p class=MsoNormal>> ==========================================================================</p><p class=MsoNormal>> 4.9.6 Hierarchy</p><p class=MsoNormal>> </p><p class=MsoNormal>> http://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19774-1/V2.0/HAnim/concepts.html#Hierarchy</p><p class=MsoNormal>> </p><p class=MsoNormal>> Review notes</p><p class=MsoNormal>> </p><p class=MsoNormal>> These tables are copied from the HAnim specification</p><p class=MsoNormal>> The specification does not call out LOA-0</p><p class=MsoNormal>> '''MISMATCH''' indicates inconsistent segment names</p><p class=MsoNormal>> </p><p class=MsoNormal>> [...]</p><p class=MsoNormal>> </p><p class=MsoNormal>> [LOA-0] humanoid_root : sacrum</p><p class=MsoNormal>> [LOA-1] sacroiliac : pelvis</p><p class=MsoNormal>> | [LOA-1] l_hip : l_thigh</p><p class=MsoNormal>> | | [LOA-1] l_knee : l_calf</p><p class=MsoNormal>> | | [LOA-1] l_talocrural : l_hindfoot *MISMATCH talus/hindfoot*</p><p class=MsoNormal>> | | [LOA-1] l_metatarsophalangeal : l_middistal *MISMATCH middistal/tarsal_proximal_phalanx*</p><p class=MsoNormal>> | [LOA-1] r_hip : r_thigh</p><p class=MsoNormal>> | [LOA-1] r_knee : r_calf</p><p class=MsoNormal>> | [LOA-1] r_talocrural : r_hindfoot *MISMATCH talus/hindfoot*</p><p class=MsoNormal>> | [LOA-1] r_metatarsophalangeal : r_middistal *MISMATCH middistal/tarsal_proximal_phalanx*</p><p class=MsoNormal>> [LOA-1] vl5 : l5</p><p class=MsoNormal>> [LOA-1] skullbase : skull</p><p class=MsoNormal>> [LOA-1] l_shoulder : l_upperarm</p><p class=MsoNormal>> | [LOA-1] l_elbow : l_forearm</p><p class=MsoNormal>> | [LOA-1] l_radiocarpal : l_hand *MISMATCH hand/carpal*</p><p class=MsoNormal>> [LOA-1] r_shoulder : r_upperarm</p><p class=MsoNormal>> [LOA-1] r_elbow : r_forearm</p><p class=MsoNormal>> [LOA-1] r_radiocarpal : r_hand *MISMATCH hand/carpal*</p><p class=MsoNormal>> ==========================================================================</p><p class=MsoNormal>> </p><p class=MsoNormal>> and so on through all Levels of Articulation (LOAs).</p><p class=MsoNormal>> </p><p class=MsoNormal>> And so, wondering how to resolve these segment naming mismatches. The essence of HAnim is naming, if LOAs are incompatible then they are not really reusable at different levels of geometry or animation fidelity.</p><p class=MsoNormal>> [...]</p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>all the best, Don</p><p class=MsoNormal>-- </p><p class=MsoNormal>Don Brutzman Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br brutzman@nps.edu</p><p class=MsoNormal>Watkins 270, MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA +1.831.656.2149</p><p class=MsoNormal>X3D graphics, virtual worlds, navy robotics http://faculty.nps.edu/brutzman</p><p class=MsoNormal>_______________________________________________</p><p class=MsoNormal>x3d-public mailing list</p><p class=MsoNormal>x3d-public@web3d.org</p><p class=MsoNormal>http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org</p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></body></html>