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--></style></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink="#954F72"><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><b>From: </b><a href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com">John Carlson</a><br><b>Sent: </b>Sunday, January 6, 2019 7:23 PM<br><b>To: </b><a href="mailto:joedwil@earthlink.net">Joseph D Williams</a>; <a href="mailto:awonnink@hotmail.com">Albert Jan Wonnink</a>; <a href="mailto:vmarchetti@kshell.com">vmarchetti@kshell.com</a>; <a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org">X3D-Public</a><br><b>Subject: </b>RE: [x3d-public] Euler rotation</p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><ul style='margin-top:0in' type=disc><li class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'>Can this be written up and placed on popular website?</li></ul><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>What part do you want to get written up? My favorite now is whether to risk calling the default x3d axis x y z by the commonly understood terms of pitch yaw roll, respectively, just as a memory aid. </p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Right, not accepting rotation degrees is a very interesting part of the x3d story. Maybe a point of departure from fixed frame rate to realtime and variabletime. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><ul style='margin-top:0in' type=disc><li class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'>Thanks,</li><li class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'>John</li></ul><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><Transform DEF="x-rotation" rotation="1 0 0 0"><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><Transform DEF="y-rotation" rotation="0 1 0 0"><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><Transform DEF="z-rotation" rotation="0 0 1 0"><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><!-- put vehicle model here <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal> May be Important to consider recommendations <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal> for drawing vehicle model axes relative to <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal> default x3d rotation/orientation axes --><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><Shape>...</Shape><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal></Transform><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal></Transform><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal></Transform><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>…<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>DEF Pitch OrientationInterpolator { <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>key [ 0, 0.25 0.5, 0.75 1 ] <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>keyValue [ 0 0 1 0, 1 0 0 1.5, 0 0 1 0, -1 0 0 1.5, 0 0 1 0 ] }<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>DEF Yaw OrientationInterpolator { <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>key [ 0, 0.25 0.5, 0.75 1 ] <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>keyValue [ 0 0 1 0, 0 1 0 1.5, 0 0 1 0, 0 -1 0 1.5, 0 0 1 0 ] }<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>DEF Roll OrientationInterpolator { <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>key [ 0, 0.25 0.5, 0.75 1 ] <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>keyValue [ 0 0 1 0, 0 0 1 1.5, 0 0 1 0, 0 0 -1 1.5, 0 0 1 0 ] }<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>…<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Add timer(s) and routes to get data generated by interpolators and sent to transforms for vehicle model x (pitch) y (yaw) and z (roll) rotations. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Add some vehicle internal and external viewpoints to see what is happening. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Change the keyvalue(s) and see what happens. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Change the key(s) and see what happens. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Have Fun, <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Joe<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b>From: </b><a href="mailto:joedwil@earthlink.net">Joseph D Williams</a><br><b>Sent: </b>Sunday, January 6, 2019 7:20 PM<br><b>To: </b><a href="mailto:awonnink@hotmail.com">Albert Jan Wonnink</a>; <a href="mailto:vmarchetti@kshell.com">vmarchetti@kshell.com</a>; <a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org">X3D-Public</a><br><b>Subject: </b>Re: [x3d-public] Euler rotation<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Hi Albert and All, <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>When you use euler (or <span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Tait-Bryan) </span>angles for a while you will find that you get problems. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Actually there is plenty of writing about the details maybe even in the x3d or hanim archives and widely on the web.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>In addition, when you create or edit the things much then you will find it is actually a lot easier to use quats or axis-angle radians. In general, for degrees, maybe your editing system may offer as a learning tool if radian is really an elementary block to learning, but really, never in the user code due to misleading simplicity and what ‘cha finally gonna tell ‘em when the gimbals lock? <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><ul style='margin-top:0in' type=disc><li class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><Transform DEF="yaw-rotation" rotation="0 0 1 $yaw"></li><li class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><Transform DEF="pitch-rotation" rotation="0 1 0 $pitch"></li><li class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><Transform DEF="roll-rotation" rotation="1 0 0 $roll"></li></ul><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Besides the fact that a variable is not allowed there <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>(maybe use a prototype if you need a variable?) <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>I don't think your naming of yaw and pitch and roll is reasonable for x3d. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>For default transform rotation 0 0 1 0, sit on it and face +z and find +y is up and +x is left. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>then fly the thing using pitch and yaw and roll.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>The x3d axis-angle parameters are most likely pitch yaw roll then the scale, <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>and I think the same order for quaternions, except where the 'scale' is placed and the special limits for values. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Why not try the following:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>DEF Pitch OrientationInterpolator { <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>key [ 0, 0.25 0.5, 0.75 1 ] <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>keyValue [ 0 0 1 0, 1 0 0 1.5, 0 0 1 0, -1 0 0 1.5, 0 0 1 0 ] }<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>DEF Yaw OrientationInterpolator { <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>key [ 0, 0.25 0.5, 0.75 1 ] <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>keyValue [ 0 0 1 0, 0 1 0 1.5, 0 0 1 0, 0 -1 0 1.5, 0 0 1 0 ] }<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>DEF Roll OrientationInterpolator { <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>key [ 0, 0.25 0.5, 0.75 1 ] <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>keyValue [ 0 0 1 0, 0 0 1 1.5, 0 0 1 0, 0 0 -1 1.5, 0 0 1 0 ] }<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Thanks and Best,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Joe<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b>From: </b><a href="mailto:awonnink@hotmail.com">Albert Jan Wonnink</a><br><b>Sent: </b>Sunday, January 6, 2019 2:25 PM<br><b>To: </b><a href="mailto:vmarchetti@kshell.com">vmarchetti@kshell.com</a>; <a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org">X3D-Public</a><br><b>Subject: </b>Re: [x3d-public] Euler rotation<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Thanks Vince, for your reply. <o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>As long as the angles and X3D code is generated by code one can of course easily calculate the individual parameters for a quaternion. But during the testing of our experimental Unity based browser, and preparing scenes for that, I found it very easy to extend the transform specification with a degree-based Euler attribute (Tait-Bryan would also have worked).<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>The current system still makes it relatively difficult to manually apply an angle of the most used fractions of PI, doesn't it?<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>I guess this issue must have been discussed in one of the early days of the X3D specification. But it seems to me a lost chance to make it more convenient.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Regards<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Albert Jan Wonnink<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><img border=0 width=562 height=2 style='width:5.85in;height:.025in' id="Horizontal_x0020_Line_x0020_1" src="cid:image003.png@01D4A606.14B5CB60" alt="cid:image002.png@01D4A5E3.FD08F950"><o:p></o:p></p><div id=divRplyFwdMsg><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='color:black'>Van:</span></b><span style='color:black'> vmarchetti@kshell.com <vmarchetti@kshell.com><br><b>Verzonden:</b> zondag 6 januari 2019 22:49<br><b>Aan:</b> Albert Jan Wonnink; X3D-Public<br><b>Onderwerp:</b> Re: [x3d-public] Euler rotation</span> <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>There is no single node Euler angle alternative representation of a rotation transform defined in the current (v 3.3) X3D standard.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>You can get an easier to edit representation of Euler angle rotation (specifically the Tait-Bryan angles, <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euler_angles#Tait–Bryan_angles">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euler_angles#Tait%E2%80%93Bryan_angles</a>, commonly used for vehicle oriented<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>with respect to the horizon, by nesting 3 Transforms:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><Transform DEF="yaw-rotation" rotation="0 0 1 $yaw"><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><Transform DEF="pitch-rotation" rotation="0 1 0 $pitch"><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><Transform DEF="roll-rotation" rotation="1 0 0 $roll"><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><!-- put vehicle model here --><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><Shape>...</Shape><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal></Transform><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal></Transform><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal></Transform><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>where for $yaw, $pitch, $roll you need to substitute the numerical value of the rotation angle in radians.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Vince Marchetti<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Jan 6, 2019, at 12:53 PM, Albert Jan Wonnink <<a href="mailto:awonnink@hotmail.com">awonnink@hotmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>Is there, or should there be, an Euler alternative for the transform 'rotation' property? This makes direct x3d code editing much easier.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>Albert Jan Wonnink <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Monaco",serif'>_______________________________________________<br>x3d-public mailing list<br></span><a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org"><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Monaco",serif'>x3d-public@web3d.org</span></a><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Monaco",serif'><br></span><a href="http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org"><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Monaco",serif'>http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org</span></a><o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></body></html>