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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>></span><span style='font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>Now
coming to the idea with the Hyper Scene and to Gina-Lauren's suggestions. I
think the idea with the Hyper scene that cares for the networking is a good
idea<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>
- as long as the shared state is not too complex (each value has to be
transported via the "?")<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>
- as long as the Hyperscene sticks to a standard (which would need to be
defined, too)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I've read Doug's description of his HS idea, though I'm not
sure I understand. I'd imagine it to work for sprite type games, where the top
layer is not actually inside the underlying scene. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>></span><span style='font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>If
the scene becomes too complex or if the scene is compiled from different
sources, e.g. "module by module" and "model by model", then
I would rather prefer to "bury" a network sensor within each model,
just broadcasting the "network connection" to every model by an
SFNode and defining the "streamName" for the network sensor, the rest
would be done by the model internally.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>The object and avatar coordinates are relative to the browser. If
you switch scene or remove it altogether, the objects/avatars will remain in exactly
the same position, as controlled by the script node, which is at the center of
it all and stays loaded at all time regardless of scenes or models. The script
node resides at the core in a client/server relationship, because its functions
act as the client that makes connections to the server. The objects/avatars move
according to the coordinates that are being passed to them from that core
script. This, at least in the implementation that we have at OT, where the 3D browser
is not required to handle any MU duties, other than passing along the http
requests/responses to and from a script node. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>But what you are describing reminds me more of Java 3D. It can
be a very powerful object oriented approach, but its implementation paradigm an
entirely different animal than that of X3D. I've played with it some back in
the days, before deciding to opt out of Java altogether, so my experience is
limited. But how you would make it work with X3D is intriguing. Is that the
direction you are taking with your Train project?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>></span><span style='font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>Now
to the misunderstaning which I have with Gina-Lauren. I often used the term
"network protocol" in a wrong manner. Of course I do NOT mean a
"network LAYER protocol", such as IPv4 or IPv6, but of course I mean
an "application LAYER protocol".<span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Ok.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>></span><span style='font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>I
think this application layer protocol could be sketched by message flow charts
and by textual description. Just which messages are defined, how are the
messages combined to procedures and which parameters can the messages carry.
How are the messages routed?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Like I've mentioned earlier, in my case, avatars must first authenticate
(to server) and login (to scene). Same for logout (leave scene) and delete (from
server). So that's one type of messages. Then you have your coordinates and
orientation messages for avatars and vehicles. Also action messages for avatar
gestures and the motion of more static but moveable objects such as doors and
furniture. Text chat is also another type of message, though they can all be
passed at once within the same http request. But I think that is all too
application-specific for a general standard. An author should probably be able
to expose any number of fields in the NS to configure it as needed, which I
believe is pretty much what the current draft entails.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>>How
are the messages routed?</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>They are routed through TCP now because that's what we have
available, though I'd like the ability to use other protocols, especially UDP based
in the short term and quite possibly SCTP eventually. The draft also calls for
an X3D protocol (X3DP) which is not defined but I think very much at the center
of this discussion. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Do we really need the NS to be implemented in a 3D browser? Or
can it be at least emulated with Javascript? I have high hopes for that.. ;)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>GL<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Simplified Arabic Fixed";
color:#1F497D'>________________________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Simplified Arabic Fixed";
color:#1F497D'>* * * Interactive Multimedia - Internet Management * * *<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Simplified Arabic Fixed";
color:#1F497D'> * * Virtual Reality -- Application Programming * *<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Simplified Arabic Fixed";
color:#1F497D'> * 3D Net Productions 3dnetproductions.com *<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>This
application layer protocol should be open to (m)any transport protocol(s), such
as XMPP, SIP, RTP, TCP, UDP, SCTP, MSRP, 3GPP MCX, ............<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>Such
a stable description and the promise to support any transport protocol would
create trust in X3D MU.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>All
the Best<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>Christoph<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div style='border:none;border-left:solid #C3D9E5 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;
margin-left:6.0pt;margin-top:6.0pt;margin-right:3.0pt;margin-bottom:3.0pt'>
<div style='margin-bottom:6.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>Gesendet:</span></b><span
style='font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'> Donnerstag,
14. März 2019 um 17:53 Uhr<br>
<b>Von:</b> "GPU Group" <gpugroup@gmail.com><br>
<b>An:</b> "X3D Graphics public mailing list"
<x3d-public@web3d.org><br>
<b>Betreff:</b> Re: [x3d-public] Netw. Sens. Protocol - WAS: 3d-public
Digest, Vol120, Issue 34<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>One
very fuzzy idea: HyperScene (HS) <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>-
one layer above scene<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>-
networking would/could work on this layer ie <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>Scene
-?- HS - network - HS - ? - Scene<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>-
with the ? being maybe EAI/SAI and/or DISTransform-like node updater<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>-
the LayeringComponent - some have been asking if it could/should be dropped or
fixed, and maybe if fixing, it might relate to a layer above scene also<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>HS
- Layering - Scene<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>And
maybe 2 scene instances rendering on the same web page or side-by-side in one
desktop browser instance might be on some layer above scene, such as Layering
or HyperLayering.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>But
sorry I can't explain any deeper. Its all fuzzy thinking.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>-Doug
Sanden<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>On
Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 2:37 PM GL <<a href="mailto:info@3dnetproductions.com"
target="_blank">info@3dnetproductions.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;
margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'><br>
<br>
Christoph,<br>
<br>
Personally, I don't think the NS should impose a network protocol standard at
all. Instead, it should allow for as much flexibility as possible, remembering
that we don't necessarily work within a web browser, and that present and
future applications may involve different types of hardware and/or protocols
not thought of, yet widely in use, or available today. We don't have to define
implementations, but just leave the door open so to speak, so that vendors and
authors may build what they need without the standard getting in the way.<br>
<br>
However, at a higher level, if we want different 3D implementations to be able
to communicate with each other, there would be a need to have a standard way of
making worlds, avatars, objects, etc. compatible at the network level. In that
case, we could envision an X3D application layer protocol (perhaps thinking of
ftp, smtp, http, etc, but explicit to X3D), independently of the network
transport layer, while the emphasis remains on flexibility. That being said,
provide a set of mechanisms, a structure for conduits and data tunnels, but
what passes through it should probably largely be left undefined as far as a
standard is concerned, as long as the format is true to X3D form.<br>
<br>
It would be nice to have data transmissions more defined, but the world being
what it is and constantly evolving, I doubt we'd ever get there. I'd say
"let the market forces play and the chips fall where they may".<br>
<br>
So I am not too sure how to answer your question. I think that is what we are
trying to figure out. Cheerz<br>
<br>
GL<br>
<br>
<br>
________________________________________________________<br>
* * * Interactive Multimedia - Internet Management * * *<br>
* * Virtual Reality -- Application Programming * *<br>
* 3D Net Productions <a
href="http://3dnetproductions.com" target="_blank">3dnetproductions.com</a>
*<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
From: x3d-public [mailto:<a href="mailto:x3d-public-bounces@web3d.org"
target="_blank">x3d-public-bounces@web3d.org</a>] On Behalf Of Christoph
Valentin<br>
Sent: Monday, March 11, 2019 4:21 AM<br>
To: <a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org" target="_blank">x3d-public@web3d.org</a><br>
Subject: Re: [x3d-public] Netw. Sens. Protocol - WAS: 3d-public Digest, Vol120,
Issue 34<br>
<br>
Hi Gina-Lauren, Hi John<br>
<br>
>>>>>>But yeah, whatever the browser vendors support as a
standard would be OK with me.<br>
<br>
John, You speak as a scene author, don't you? So you don't care, which Network
Protocol the browser uses.<br>
<br>
I understand that, because I am a scene author, too.<br>
<br>
Now, what is the position of the Browser vendor?<br>
<br>
Wouldn't the Browser vendor say the same? "Whatever the server Vendor
supports as standard, would be Ok with me?"<br>
<br>
@Gina-Lauren: What would you like to support as standard? Just to have an
example.<br>
<br>
Just my 2c<br>
<br>
:-) Christoph<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
--<br>
Diese Nachricht wurde von meinem Android Mobiltelefon mit GMX Mail gesendet.<br>
Am 11.03.19, 08:09, Christoph Valentin <<a
href="mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at" target="_blank">christoph.valentin@gmx.at</a>>
schrieb:<br>
Hi Gina-Lauren, John, Andreas,<br>
<br>
Now seriously.<br>
<br>
Given the Network Sensor (or however it would be called), i.e. the syntax of
how to instantiate the related nodes in a Web3D scene , was specified sufficiently
(e.g. in X3Dv4)<br>
<br>
there would still be a lot to be defined regarding how to connect to the
server, connect to a server at all, use a star topology or support server
hierarchy and so on.<br>
<br>
If those decisions were left to the implementors of Web3D browsers (and
libraries), then the market would fall apart again, as soon as it starts to
bloom.<br>
<br>
The standard doesn't need to be technically perfect, but it must be
well regarded.<br>
<br>
Just philosophy:-)<br>
<br>
Just my personal opinion :-)<br>
<br>
(And meanwhile we can use open-dis ;-) )<br>
--<br>
Diese Nachricht wurde von meinem Android Mobiltelefon mit GMX Mail gesendet.<br>
Am 11.03.19, 07:41, John Carlson <<a href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com"
target="_blank">yottzumm@gmail.com</a>> schrieb:<br>
I wish there was a reviewing site for open source software. With both
developer and end-user reviews (separate).<br>
<br>
John<br>
<br>
Sent from Mail for Windows 10<br>
<br>
From: Christoph Valentin<br>
Sent: Monday, March 11, 2019 12:36 AM<br>
To: John Carlson; <a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org" target="_blank">x3d-public@web3d.org</a><br>
Subject: RE: [x3d-public] Netw. Sens. Protocol - WAS: 3d-public Digest, Vol120,
Issue 34<br>
<br>
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<br>
>>>>>>May I suggest a CSV-like protocol across the https or
TLS/SSL network, similar to:<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
(SSL-initiation)<br>
<br>
COMMAND1,TIME1,PARAMETER1,PARAMETER2,..\r\n<br>
<br>
COMMAND2,TIME2,PARAMETER3,PARAMETER4,…\r\n<br>
<br>
…<br>
<br>
[Christoph:] I think it depends on the KIND of state/event you want to
transmit. If the state does not change very often (let's say every second),
then a text based protocol will be the right choice. If you had a state that
changed in real time (position of a jet plane) , then I'd think about somthing
like an RTP stream (real time protocol). Anyway, the first step is to agree
THAT the protocol should be standardized.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
>>>>>>Will that satisfy the network nazis?<br>
<br>
[Christoph] I always thought the term Network Sensor (NS) was a bad
choice :-)<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
>>>>>>>What type of constrictions do we have to jump
through to satisfy network ops? Should we make the protocol look just
like an Excel file? </span><span style='font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>😊😊</span><span
style='font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'> Just wait
until the first executive gets his excel file stopped by a network filter </span><span
style='font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>😊</span><span
style='font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>.<br>
<br>
[Christoph]: I'd suggest to use SIP as signaling protocol, but this is my
personal opinion. I'm not supported by my employer nor by my former employer.<br>
<br>
<br>
--<br>
Diese Nachricht wurde von meinem Android Mobiltelefon mit GMX Mail gesendet.<br>
<br>
Am 11.03.19, 06:07, John Carlson <<a href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com"
target="_blank">yottzumm@gmail.com</a>> schrieb:<br>
<br>
May I suggest a CSV-like protocol across the https or TLS/SSL network, similar
to:<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
(SSL-initiation)<br>
<br>
COMMAND1,TIME1,PARAMETER1,PARAMETER2,..\r\n<br>
<br>
COMMAND2,TIME2,PARAMETER3,PARAMETER4,…\r\n<br>
<br>
…<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Will that satisfy the network nazis?<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Also, we might use a STEP/EXPRESS-like format, if we want a hierarchical
format.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Can we leverage X3DUOM-style XSD and our tools to create APIs?<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
What type of constrictions do we have to jump through to satisfy network
ops? Should we make the protocol look just like an Excel file? </span><span
style='font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>😊</span><span
style='font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'> </span><span
style='font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>😊</span><span
style='font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'> Just wait
until the first executive gets his excel file stopped by a network filter </span><span
style='font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>😊</span><span
style='font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Maybe not, huh?<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
What types of interactions do we want to support?<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
John<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Sent from Mail for Windows 10<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
From: Christoph Valentin<br>
Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2019 10:34 PM<br>
To: <a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org" target="_blank">x3d-public@web3d.org</a><br>
Subject: Re: [x3d-public] x3d-public Digest, Vol 120, Issue 34<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
>>>>>>It may be time to come up with some proof of concept
implementations of nodes or infrastructure around a scene using web technology
before more thought experiments.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
>>>>>Andreas,<br>
<br>
I don't mean to interject in your conversation, but my earlier comments (below)
were not merely "thought experiments". Most of everything I've talked
about is already implemented and working at <a href="http://officetowers.com"
target="_blank">officetowers.com</a> (The server is currently suffering from a
database malfunction, so login is not currently possible until next week, but I
can assure you. Meanwhile, videos are available if you'd like to see them).<br>
<br>
That world and its associated X3Daemon multiuser server, have been ready for a
network sensor for years. But before potentially spending hundreds of hours in
implementing one in a new version based on more modern practices and available
technologies, I'd like to see what we can come up with as a consensus.<br>
<br>
What is exactly a network sensor? What are its functions? Within what
boundaries and parameters? Do we refer to the earlier draft (when work on it
stopped) as a basis? IMO, those are some of the questions that need answers
before we can contemplate creating specs for a NS.<br>
<br>
Cheerz,<br>
Gina-Lauren<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
[Christoph]<br>
<br>
Hi Gina-Lauren, Hi Andreas,<br>
It's me, who should not disturb fruitful discussion here, but waiting for
Andreas' response I'd like to add my two cents.<br>
<br>
Just assume the members could agree on a test setup and they could motivate
enough manpower to "do it".<br>
<br>
A) How could such test setup look like?<br>
<br>
B) Assuming the test setup and the specs would be developed in parallel, what
would we need from the specs?<br>
<br>
As I said, just my 2c.<br>
<br>
Have good luck :-)<br>
Christoph<br>
<br>
Am 11.03.19, 03:38, GL <<a href="mailto:info@3dnetproductions.com"
target="_blank">info@3dnetproductions.com</a>> schrieb:<br>
<br>
<br>
>It may be time to come up with some proof of concept implementations of
nodes or infrastructure around a scene using web technology before more thought
experiments.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Andreas,<br>
<br>
I don't mean to interject in your conversation, but my earlier
comments (below) were not merely "thought experiments". Most of
everything I've talked about is already implemented and working at <a
href="http://officetowers.com" target="_blank">officetowers.com</a> (The server
is currently suffering from a database malfunction, so login is not currently
possible until next week, but I can assure you. Meanwhile, videos are available
if you'd like to see them).<br>
<br>
That world and its associated X3Daemon multiuser server, have been ready for a
network sensor for years. But before potentially spending hundreds of hours in
implementing one in a new version based on more modern practices and available
technologies, I'd like to see what we can come up with as a consensus.<br>
<br>
What is exactly a network sensor? What are its functions? Within what
boundaries and parameters? Do we refer to the earlier draft (when work on it
stopped) as a basis? IMO, those are some of the questions that need answers
before we can contemplate creating specs for a NS.<br>
<br>
Cheerz,<br>
Gina-Lauren<br>
<br>
<br>
________________________________________________________<br>
* * * Interactive Multimedia - Internet Management * * *<br>
* * Virtual Reality -- Application Programming * *<br>
* 3D Net Productions <a href="http://3dnetproductions.com" target="_blank">3dnetproductions.com</a>
*<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Hello Andreas, Christoph and all,<br>
<br>
<br>
>I looked at the network sensor, and BS Collaborate nodes. I think the idea
is to explicitly forward all events which need sharing to the server which then
distributes those to connected clients.<br>
<br>
<br>
I'd say it's a fair assessment, though there are also a
little more, behind the scene events, such as avatar authentication,
login/logout, standby/resume status, and other similar network connections that
are not necessarily shared in the scene per say.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
>This leaves the definition of the shared state to the scene, and therefore
requires careful design and code for MU. Perhaps there is a way that the
browser can better assist with making a scene MU capable.<br>
<br>
<br>
X3D is very capable of doing this internally, but I'd definitely want
it to have its own script node. It may be possible to pass simple events
through the browser, but that solution would impose severe limits to the
ability to perform multiuser tasks in general. I mean, it can get convoluted
enough as it is, without adding the extra complexity of passing events and
network connections back and forth through the browser. I understand it
isn't easy, but if it can be done, we probably should do it.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
>What is the complete state a client needs when it is admitted to a shared
scene ?<br>
<br>
<br>
>From my experience, that will depend very much on the use case, but generally,
the scene is complete within each client, though avatars and/or objects may be
hidden and not necessarily seen at any given time. When the client connects to
the shared network, that's pretty much when state is established.
There may be exceptions to that, for example when an avatar has a specific
identity and/or status in a game or accumulated points, that information will
typically first be obtained from the server's database, before being
passed on to the client and in turn to the network.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
>Since most fields of most nodes accept input, and can therefore potentially
change, complete state probably means just the value of all fields of all root
nodes which means all nodes. The complete state may only need to be transferred
when a client joins.<br>
<br>
<br>
Ditto. Yes exactly. See above.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
>Plus the offsets of avatars from Viewpoints. And the clock. Perhaps other
values.<br>
<br>
<br>
Again yes, so avatars don't end up on top of each other for example.<br>
<br>
As far as a clock, I have never shared one or felt I needed to thus far. In my
implementation, each client simply polls the server at regular intervals of
one, two or more seconds (depending what other subsystems are in place). We
sometimes cannot allow a client which is experiencing latency for one reason or
another, to hold back all of the other clients. The show must go on, whether a
client gets disconnected or happens to get out of sync. It generally seems to
have little impact, since, at least in some cases, users are not together in
one room. So they are in essence unaware that they are out of sync, as the case
may be.<br>
<br>
But, I can see how specific applications may need and would want to have a
clock. And in that case, I believe we should take a good look at what the MIDI
standard has to offer. MIDI is a well established and solid standard that has
many uses for timing and control, not just music, and is more than likely a
very good fit for virtual reality.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
>I was thinking about avatar initiated event cascades since the state of
everything else should be deterministic and only depend on time. These other
things should update themselves. There are exceptions such as scripts which
generate random values.<br>
<br>
<br>
Avatars with gestures, and also all kind of visible objects, such as doors,
cars, elevators (that's a tough one), a cup of coffee, a guitar,
clouds, stars and anything else that moves. But also various more subtle things
like say group chat, or items inside pockets or bags, money, ammunition and
things of that nature also need shared states, and sometimes to various levels
of privacy.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
>Avatar initiated event cascades generally start with environment sensors.
Not sure if there are other ways. The idea would be to just have to transmit
this event cascade to other clients which then can replay it to update their
scene instances.<br>
<br>
<br>
Sure. General user interactions with the world and its interface, such as
buttons and inworld devices, often need to be shared as well.<br>
<br>
<br>
>I also was reading some of the github open-dis documentation. Interesting
background, and pretty accurate discussion on coordinate systems. It may be
possible to set up somewhere a very simple distributed simulation to join and
test clients with.<br>
<br>
<br>
I remember the DIS-Java-VRML work. That was very good. I will take a closer
look at Open DIS as you mentioned. It sounds interesting. As I began to touch
above, each MU implementation will have their own particularities. Personally,
I would very much like to see a general NetworkSensor node that would be
flexible enough to accommodate different protocols, but also one that has the
ability to be adapted to specific use case and needs.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
>Single browser MU: I think an additional touchedByUser field would be
required but perhaps there is a way to generalize tracking of Users.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I don't know if it's possible, but I'd like to see
the possibility to add any number of fields to the network node. Fields that
would be defined by each implementation as needed, as we may not be able to
always predict its application.<br>
<br>
<br>
I feel there is much more to discuss, and I'd re-iterate my suggestion
to open a NetworkSensor group or similar, so as to allow for more detailed
exchanges and begin to have some basis for VR networking.<br>
<br>
Gina-Lauren<br>
<br>
<br>
P.S. Your work with Python is very interesting and falls in line with some of
my own thoughts.<br>
<br>
________________________________________________________<br>
* * * Interactive Multimedia - Internet Management * * *<br>
* * Virtual Reality -- Application Programming * *<br>
* 3D Net Productions <a href="http://3dnetproductions.com" target="_blank">3dnetproductions.com</a>
*<br>
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