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--></style><meta name="viewport" content="width=device-width" /><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/vnd.ui.insecure+html;charset=utf-8" /></head><body lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="#954F72" style="overflow-wrap:break-word; word-break: break-word;"><div class="mail_android_message" style="line-height: 1; padding: 0.5em">John.<br>
<br>
Basic idea is to literally define the PDUs (protocol data units). Since the Web3D Consortium has some experience with multiple encodings, the PDUs could be defined as XML or JSON or similar. The server (if one is used ) must support all encodings. The client may select an encoding during login. <br>
<br>
I do not know XMPP, but SIP is a text based protocol similar to http and can be human-readable.<br>
<br>
The server architecture depends on the use case. <br>
Should we support voice chat? Should we support chat based on the transport protocol or based on the MU protocol? Do we like to have LI for avatar position? Many questions here.<br>
<br>
Facit: I'll try to create a project exposè and get back to you next weekend.<br>
<br>
All the best<br>
Christoph<br>
-- <br>
Diese Nachricht wurde von meinem Android Mobiltelefon mit GMX Mail gesendet.</div><div class="mail_android_quote" style="line-height: 1; padding: 0.3em">Am 01.04.19, 00:01, John Carlson <yottzumm@gmail.com> schrieb:<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0.8ex 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
<div class="WordSection1"><p class="MsoNormal">Your documents give me the feeling of a network protocol, whereas mine feel more like a database or http/rest. Probably because we have our separate work experience. I think the DIS protocol works more like radios and GPS would be my guess. With X3D MU, we are defining in a space of 1) chat protocols like XMPP and IRC 2) database protocols like SQL*Net 3) Object/Multimedia protocols like WebRTC and SIP.</p><p class="MsoNormal"></p><p> </p><p class="MsoNormal">Some comments:</p><p class="MsoNormal"></p><p> </p><p class="MsoNormal">People build webapps to protect users from their databases. The corollary to this is that there might be user information that is exclusive to a user or group.</p><p class="MsoNormal"></p><p> </p><p class="MsoNormal">My primary request for a network protocol is that they are difficult to debug, thus you should create them similar to a command prompt, like request/reply, UTF-8, etc. However, I think with MU, you are getting events from others, so it’s more like debugging pub/sub or a messaging system like Oracle AQ, Java JMS, IBM MQ, Apache ActiveMQ, etc. </p><p class="MsoNormal"></p><p> </p><p class="MsoNormal">What do you think about using pub/sub or messaging? What “style” of protocol works best in SP-ARK’s case? I think one to many and many to one is one of the best features of pub/sub, but often it takes a lot infrastructure to maintain the queues.</p><p class="MsoNormal"></p><p> </p><p class="MsoNormal">Maybe we should step back and define the objects we are communicating.</p><p class="MsoNormal"></p><p> </p><ol style="margin-top:0in" start="1" type="1"><li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">Avatar (initial H-Anim figure) and position, orientation, motion (ongoing). This is done by pc.multiplayer tag around the world</li><li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">Things the avatar might be carrying (shapes transformed by the avatars position, orientation and motion)</li><li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">Sounds-chat-video applied to avatar position</li><li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">???</li></ol><p class="MsoNormal"></p><p> </p><p class="MsoNormal">Sent from <a href="https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986">Mail</a> for Windows 10</p><p class="MsoNormal"></p><p> </p><div style="mso-element:para-border-div;border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"><p class="MsoNormal" style="border:none;padding:0in"><b>From: </b><a href="mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at">Christoph Valentin</a><br /><b>Sent: </b>Sunday, March 31, 2019 4:18 PM<br /><b>To: </b><a href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com">John Carlson</a><br /><b>Cc: </b><a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org">X3D Graphics public mailing list</a>; <a href="mailto:luletibbe@gmail.com">Sven-Erik Tiberg</a><br /><b>Subject: </b>Aw: RE: New X3D network working group suggestion: Standardsforcollaboration I/O, processing and storage (SP-ARK)</p></div><p class="MsoNormal"></p><p> </p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Great, it's an unusual feeling not being alone :-) <p></p></span></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"> <p></p></span></p><div style="border:none;border-left:solid #C3D9E5 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 8.0pt;margin-left:7.5pt;margin-top:7.5pt;margin-right:3.75pt;margin-bottom:3.75pt;word-wrap: break-word;-webkit-nbsp-mode: space;-webkit-line-break: after-white-space" name="quote"><div style="margin-bottom:7.5pt"><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Gesendet:</span></b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"> Sonntag, 31. März 2019 um 23:14 Uhr<br /><b>Von:</b> "John Carlson" <yottzumm@gmail.com><br /><b>An:</b> "Christoph Valentin" <christoph.valentin@gmx.at>, "X3D Graphics public mailing list" <x3d-public@web3d.org><br /><b>Cc:</b> "Sven-Erik Tiberg" <luletibbe@gmail.com><br /><b>Betreff:</b> RE: New X3D network working group suggestion: Standards forcollaboration I/O, processing and storage (SP-ARK)<p></p></span></p></div><div name="quoted-content"><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">I will review you contributions now Christoph.<p></p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"> <p></p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">John<p></p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"> <p></p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Sent from <a href="https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986" target="_blank">Mail</a> for Windows 10<p></p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"> <p></p></span></p><div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">From: </span></b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"><a href="mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at" target="_blank">Christoph Valentin</a><br /><b>Sent: </b>Sunday, March 31, 2019 2:47 PM<br /><b>To: </b><a href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com" target="_blank">John Carlson</a>; <a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org" target="_blank">X3D Graphics public mailing list</a><br /><b>Cc: </b><a href="mailto:luletibbe@gmail.com" target="_blank">Sven-Erik Tiberg</a><br /><b>Subject: </b>Aw: New X3D network working group suggestion: Standards forcollaboration I/O, processing and storage (SP-ARK)<p></p></span></p></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"> <p></p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">John,<br /><br />Of course I will add these ideas to the collection of inputs.<br /><br />>>>>>>>>What do you view as the primary SP-ARK actions?<br /><br />1) SP-ARK is dedicated to the use (and support) of X3Dv4<br />2) basically, the playground is open to anybody, who is interested in simple multiuser scenes<br />3) probably we will implement some demo application maybe even a server (depends on support)<br />4) Goal 1: help the Web3D Consortium in defining an application layer protocol for the Network Sensor<br />5) Goal 2: to be defined<br />6) Goal 3: to be defined<br />7) and so on<br /><br />8) SP-ARK has not been started yet, but with this e-mail the probability of a start increases :-)<br /><br />All the best<br />Christoph<br /><br />--<br />Diese Nachricht wurde von meinem Android Mobiltelefon mit GMX Mail gesendet.<p></p></span></p><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Am 31.03.19, 21:14, John Carlson <yottzumm@gmail.com> schrieb:<p></p></span></p><blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:4.8pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:4.8pt"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Way up above the networksensor protocol is the concept of collaborate. How can we effectively store and communicate collaborations? Do they effectively store to a typical hierarchical file system, ala Git or Google Docs or do we need to create a new technology for collaborations? Might collaborations be “part of the network”? What if you couldn’t work without someone to collaborate with? Can a collaboration include parts of the physical world?<p></p></span></p><p><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"> <p></p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:4.8pt"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Christoph, you can add this as a comment to SP-ARK. I think we need to develop some use cases or user stories for SP-ARK that involve collaboration if they are not already there:<p></p></span></p><p><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"> <p></p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:4.8pt"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Primary actions are Create, Delete, Change, Inspect, Add, Remove, Move, Copy, Grant, Revoke. Record Date/Time for all actions performed.<p></p></span></p><p><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"> <p></p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:4.8pt"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Create Collaboration<p></p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:4.8pt"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Create Object<p></p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:4.8pt"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Create Subject<p></p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:4.8pt"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Delete Collaboration<p></p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:4.8pt"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Delete Object<p></p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:4.8pt"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Delete Subject<p></p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:4.8pt"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Change Collaboration<p></p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:4.8pt"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Change Object<p></p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:4.8pt"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Change Subject<p></p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:4.8pt"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Inspect Collaboration<p></p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:4.8pt"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Inspect Object<p></p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:4.8pt"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Inspect Subject<p></p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:4.8pt"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Add Subject to Collaboration<p></p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:4.8pt"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Add Object to Collaboration<p></p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:4.8pt"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Add Collaboration to Collaboration<p></p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:4.8pt"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Remove Subject from Collaboration<p></p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:4.8pt"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Remove Object from Collaboration<p></p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:4.8pt"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Remove Collaboration from Collaboration<p></p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:4.8pt"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Move Subject to Location, Orientation in Collaboration<p></p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:4.8pt"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Move Object to Location, Orientation in Collaboration<p></p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:4.8pt"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Copy Object between Collaborations<p></p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:4.8pt"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Copy Collaboration between Collaborations<p></p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:4.8pt"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Move Collaboration to Location, Orientation in Collaboration<p></p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:4.8pt"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Grant access to “Collaboration, Object, Action” (key) to Subject<p></p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:4.8pt"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Revoke access to “Collaboration, Object, Action” from Subject<p></p></span></p><p><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"> <p></p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:4.8pt"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">So for pc.multiplayer, there are 3 collaborations, global tag, card game and chat, managed by a server.<p></p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:4.8pt"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Objects include location, card and message<p></p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:4.8pt"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Subjects are clients<p></p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:4.8pt"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">There is no real collaboration, except the server is effectively a collaboration. There is limited communication between servers.<p></p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:4.8pt"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">No grant/revoke.<p></p></span></p><p><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"> <p></p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:4.8pt"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Collaboration might be thought of as a server, table, channel, room, or conversation all at once.<p></p></span></p><p><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"> <p></p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:4.8pt"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">More? I believe if we implement this much for a network protocol for SP-ARK, we will have achieved quite a bit.<p></p></span></p><p><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"> <p></p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:4.8pt"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">We should probably prototype with an easy to use protocol, that can be used from JavaScript, and “upgrade” to a more industrial protocol once we have the patterns down. That is, lower levels can be swapped out by vendors. Thus we need a “JPA-like (Hibernate)” level which unifies the persistence and communication. I am thinking some object attributes can be annotated as persistent and/or communicateable.<p></p></span></p><p><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"> <p></p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:4.8pt"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">What do you view as the primary SP-ARK actions?<p></p></span></p><p><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"> <p></p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:4.8pt"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">John<p></p></span></p></blockquote></div><p style="margin-left:4.8pt"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"> <p></p></span></p></div></div></div></div></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-right:3.75pt;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:7.5pt"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"> <p></p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"></p><p> </p></div></blockquote></div></body></html></body></html>