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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Some background info first.</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Web components are a means to create
new nodes within HTML that use the HTML parser and are
more-or-less fully integrated into DOM. New nodes are descendants
of fundamental node classes. The developer writes the code
necessary to interpret the attributes of the node and provide the
functionality. <br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Google has developed a web component to
display a glTF model. My understanding at this time is that the
component displays one model with all of the features that
THREE.dis provides for lighting, environment maps, texturing,
animation, etc. Anyone who might be saying that this web component
does all of the work, does not really understand 3D scene
composition, nor 3D interactions.</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Note that OS and Safari are a different
matter. Apple appears to be going down a different road for the
display of 3D content. Something like QuickTime for Rx. It does
not appear to be an in-browser capability. Canary is Google's
nightly development build and may be unstable. <br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">XSeen currently does not use Web
Components. The current public release (0.7) and development
release (0.8) use an internal parser for the attributes (HTML does
the tags). V0.8 has been focused on AR (using the phone camera as
a background) features. I am planning on a migration to web
components for V0.9. V0.8 will be out before SIGGRAPH and include
new tag/attribute documentation. I won't rewrite the API
documentation until I figure out my plans for V0.9.</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">The biggest issues for AR I have so far
encountered are:</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">
<ol>
<li>No DIS implementation of Simultaneous Localization And
Mapping (SLAM) algorithm for tracking translational movement</li>
<li>iOS restricts access to the phone camera in a browser.
Safari can use it; however, the default configuration of
Safari does not use WebGL. Chrome and other browsers do not
have access to the camera. I last checked about 6 weeks ago,
things may have changed since then.<br>
</li>
</ol>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Leonard Daly</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Hmm. On my surfaces, I offset a small
distance to get a tangent/normal. So if I could do it with
derivatives and recursion, that would work well.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I watched the youtube video. They seemed
to indicate that declarative graphics was “done” with
webComponents. That is, if you can load a glTF model with an
element, you are done. Only one implementation of webGPU on
Macs with Canary (is this a push by Apple?)</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">They didn’t make any statements of
compatibility between WebGL and WebGPU.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Expectation seems to be that WebGPU will be
implemented in web components for the most part.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">More info here:</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a
href="https://gpuweb.github.io/gpuweb/spec/"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://gpuweb.github.io/gpuweb/spec/</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">What the impact on desktop applications?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">John</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Sent from <a
href="https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986"
moz-do-not-send="true">Mail</a> for Windows 10</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="border:none;padding:0in"><b>From:
</b><a href="mailto:gpugroup@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">GPU Group</a><br>
<b>Sent: </b>Monday, May 13, 2019 3:31 PM<br>
<b>To: </b><a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">X3D Graphics public mailing list</a><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [x3d-public] Vulcan, Metal, WebGPU
impact on x3d NG</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">DXR (directX) and RTX (Vulkan) can
raytrace in real-time on capable (primarily recent RTX
series nVidia) GPUs.</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">- DXR (DirectX) will run in fallback
mode on slightly older GPUs iet GTX</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">- that may relate to PBR, like
Blender Disney or shader materials</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">- can do 'computational geometry' -
no triangles, you write a shader to decide what to do
with a ray</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">- otherwise triangles is builtin</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">But how would it all work with web3d?</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Hypothesis: on mouse-up or button
press you could raytrace the last frame.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Doug Sanden</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 1:46 PM Andreas
Plesch <<a href="mailto:andreasplesch@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">andreasplesch@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:4.8pt">There is a new
generation of low level graphics programming which aims<br>
to (slowly) replace OpenGL. I think the goal is to better
match modern<br>
GPU hardware capabilities. These interfaces are becoming more
widely<br>
used. For example, Vulcan is used increasingly by games and
Chrome<br>
Canary on Macs now has WebGPU support:<br>
<br>
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2JzIUIHIhc"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2JzIUIHIhc</a><br>
<br>
<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WebGPU" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WebGPU</a><br>
<br>
<a href="https://doc.babylonjs.com/extensions/webgpu"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://doc.babylonjs.com/extensions/webgpu</a><br>
<br>
So we may ask if development of X3D would be impacted by these
new technologies.<br>
<br>
One might say, X3D is high level and abstract and therefore
only<br>
implementations in X3D browsers are affected.<br>
<br>
But it is also important to realize that there is a pretty
strong<br>
connection from OpenGL to Inventor to VRML to X3D. In fact,
some X3D<br>
nodes are direct reflections of OpenGL constructs.<br>
<br>
So these new low level technologies may be good opportunity to
see if<br>
X3D should adapt. I do not know much about those technologies
but one<br>
common theme seems to be less or no distinction with compute
programs<br>
(shaders) and graphics programs (shaders) on the GPU, better
sharing<br>
between CPU and GPU, and also shared memory on the GPU for
parallel<br>
access by many GPU units. Wikipedia has some overviews.<br>
<br>
All web 3d frameworks are currently WebGL based. It will be<br>
interesting to see how their abstractions fit with WebGPU, the<br>
designated successor to WebGL.<br>
<br>
As a concrete matter, it seems likely that the Programmable
shaders<br>
component would be affected. For example, WebGPU uses WHLSL:<br>
<a href="https://github.com/gpuweb/WHLSL" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://github.com/gpuweb/WHLSL</a><br>
<br>
It may make sense to start thinking about these interfaces
early for<br>
those of us so inclined,<br>
<br>
-Andreas<br>
<br>
-- <br>
Andreas Plesch<br>
Waltham, MA 02453<br>
<br>
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<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
x3d-public mailing list
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<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org">http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org</a>
</pre>
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<p><br>
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<div class="moz-signature">-- <br>
<font class="tahoma,arial,helvetica san serif" color="#333366">
<font size="+1"><b>Leonard Daly</b></font><br>
3D Systems & Cloud Consultant<br>
LA ACM SIGGRAPH Past Chair<br>
President, Daly Realism - <i>Creating the Future</i>
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