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--></style></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink="#954F72"><div class=WordSection1><ul style='margin-top:0in' type=disc><li class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:0in;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo10'>Could the rest of all the examples be fixed while waiting for joe fingers?<o:p></o:p></li></ul><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Yes, the important ones are first to upgrade the existing spec v1 loa3 visible and spec motion. If we could get those up to loa4 v2, that would be a fine contribution.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Joe<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p><div style='mso-element:para-border-div;border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal style='border:none;padding:0in'><b>From: </b><a href="mailto:gpugroup@gmail.com">GPU Group</a><br><b>Sent: </b>Saturday, June 27, 2020 3:11 PM<br><b>To: </b><a href="mailto:joedwil@earthlink.net">Joseph D Williams</a><br><b>Cc: </b><a href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com">John Carlson</a>; <a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org">X3D Graphics public mailing list</a><br><b>Subject: </b>Re: [x3d-public] FW: FW: [x3d] Spec Comment by dougsandenon19774-2:HAnim MotionCapture -V1.0</p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>Could the rest of all the examples be fixed while waiting for joe fingers?</p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Sat, Jun 27, 2020 at 4:08 PM GPU Group <<a href="mailto:gpugroup@gmail.com">gpugroup@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><div><p class=MsoNormal>To what extent are the fingers or toes a pet project? Is web3d examples progress being held up while someone plays with a pet project? Or is that essential for the new LOA work? Are there other skins with permissive license that could be substituted until joe skin is done some time in the future?</p><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Sat, Jun 27, 2020 at 3:32 PM Joseph D Williams <<a href="mailto:joedwil@earthlink.net" target="_blank">joedwil@earthlink.net</a>> wrote:</p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><div><div><ul type=disc><li class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l4 level1 lfo1'>pick a scene, joe_kick … </li></ul><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>That one needs first, update to Joint hierarchy from v1 loa3 to v2 loa4</p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Second, to add v2 loa4 new sites as points for the skin, then redo the triangles to include the new points. Also some detail needs to added for toes, like was added for nigers. </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>The first part is not that hard, but the second point, which is adding the new points, making the new or revised triangles, then getting the revised inverse binding matrix of Joints to points takes a bit more concentration. </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>All Good,</p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Joe </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> </p><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b>From: </b><a href="mailto:gpugroup@gmail.com" target="_blank">GPU Group</a><br><b>Sent: </b>Saturday, June 27, 2020 2:07 PM<br><b>To: </b><a href="mailto:joedwil@earthlink.net" target="_blank">Joseph D Williams</a><br><b>Cc: </b><a href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com" target="_blank">John Carlson</a>; <a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org" target="_blank">X3D Graphics public mailing list</a><br><b>Subject: </b>Re: [x3d-public] FW: FW: [x3d] Spec Comment by dougsanden on19774-2:HAnim MotionCapture -V1.0</p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> </p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>How about a combination: pick a scene, joe_kick, manually inspect, but only edit through automation. Then when that scene is done a tool will be read processing other models. Manually inspect, edit through automation.</p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> </p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>On Sat, Jun 27, 2020 at 2:54 PM Joseph D Williams <<a href="mailto:joedwil@earthlink.net" target="_blank">joedwil@earthlink.net</a>> wrote:</p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><ul type=disc><li class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l6 level1 lfo2'>Maybe we need some practice manually fixing before automating?</li></ul><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>That is it exactly, some manually fixing and checking against the tidy logs. Sorry to be out of range except for some intermittent web access that will only do emails, mostly. Next meeting I will get someplace with reception.</p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>I think best not to work an lots of them, but just focus on getting the spec visible and spec motion and joe kick up to v2 hierarchy and names. The spec visible will be the easiest. </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Thanks, </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Joe</p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> </p><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b>From: </b><a href="mailto:gpugroup@gmail.com" target="_blank">GPU Group</a><br><b>Sent: </b>Saturday, June 27, 2020 8:24 AM<br><b>To: </b><a href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com" target="_blank">John Carlson</a><br><b>Cc: </b><a href="mailto:joedwil@earthlink.net" target="_blank">Joseph D Williams</a>; <a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org" target="_blank">X3D Graphics public mailing list</a><br><b>Subject: </b>Re: [x3d-public] FW: FW: [x3d] Spec Comment by dougsanden on 19774-2:HAnim MotionCapture -V1.0</p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> </p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Tidy has such a big list - overwhelming for a human. So that would be good for some of the little things at the end. Getting the list down to human size first would help.</p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Tidy has suggestions for some. Getting those nuisance / annoying / routine substitution things out of the tidy log first by automation would help get it closer to human scale. </p></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> </p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>On Sat, Jun 27, 2020 at 9:17 AM John Carlson <<a href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com" target="_blank">yottzumm@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Maybe we need some practice manually fixing before automating?</p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> </p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>John</p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> </p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>On Sat, Jun 27, 2020 at 7:47 AM GPU Group <<a href="mailto:gpugroup@gmail.com" target="_blank">gpugroup@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><a href="https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/HumanoidAnimation/build.X3dSchematronX3dTidy.log.txt" target="_blank">https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/HumanoidAnimation/build.X3dSchematronX3dTidy.log.txt</a> </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>If its this tidy stuff, is there a way to automate some of the fixing? It looks like tidy has some ;guesses' for some of the names. And for other names a human could probably guess, if it was in a list / lookup table.</p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>I wonder if there's a way to get tidy to put out its complaints into a form that could be used by a string substitution utility. Or scrape a lookup table from the tidy log?</p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>So it could all be done in a day.</p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> </p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>On Sat, Jun 27, 2020 at 12:33 AM Joseph D Williams <<a href="mailto:joedwil@earthlink.net" target="_blank">joedwil@earthlink.net</a>> wrote:</p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> </p><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b>From: </b><a href="mailto:joedwil@earthlink.net" target="_blank">Joseph D Williams</a><br><b>Sent: </b>Friday, June 26, 2020 9:53 PM<br><b>To: </b><a href="mailto:gpugroup@gmail.com" target="_blank">GPU Group</a><br><b>Cc: </b><a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org" target="_blank">X3D Graphics public mailing list</a><br><b>Subject: </b>RE: FW: [x3d] Spec Comment by dougsanden on 19774-2: HAnim MotionCapture -V1.0</p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> </p><ul type=disc><li class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3'>Getting past blockages in the HAnim project and on to node improvements might help later when harmonizing with glTF skinning.</li></ul><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Any hanim blockages are just getting some really rather straightforward simple updates (names and hierarchies) done. </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>We are already harmonized with gltf, because it is the same data in json form as we author in x3d human-readable form. Nothing magic or not harmonious, just the gltf data is built for hardware instead of humans. If you have figured out what the gltf stuff is and how to use it, then you will have learned about x3d hanim. </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Likewise, the reverse is true but it is more difficult because the gltf data is so scattered around. For example, the skin deformation is indexed by vertex usually with about 16 (for convenience) joints and weights, and one of these for each vertex. If you look at hanim Joint, the vertices and weights associated with each joint are listed in the Joint node. So, what would you do with hanim Joint data to create some gltf vertex objects?</p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Joe</p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> </p><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b>From: </b><a href="mailto:gpugroup@gmail.com" target="_blank">GPU Group</a><br><b>Sent: </b>Friday, June 26, 2020 3:46 PM<br><b>To: </b><a href="mailto:joedwil@earthlink.net" target="_blank">Joseph D Williams</a><br><b>Cc: </b><a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org" target="_blank">X3D Graphics public mailing list</a><br><b>Subject: </b>Re: FW: [x3d] Spec Comment by dougsanden on 19774-2: HAnim MotionCapture -V1.0</p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> </p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Q. HAnim Examples > What does the to-do list look like? </p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>I ask because I got a sense that no new / modified HANim nodes would be considered beyond official HAnim2 until examples cleaned up.</p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Is there anything blocking that? I ask in case someone has something that can help.</p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>One thing that popped to mind: is there a problem getting authors permission? If so and an example was demonstrating a particular thing, perhaps that scene can be dropped and a new one authored or volunteered by others reading this who may be sitting on some assets or capabilities that can volunteer equivalent scenery.</p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>-Doug</p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>more..</p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>On the horizon: glTF skinning which may have the effect of bypassing HAnim, perhaps obsoleting HAnim in practice.</p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><a href="https://www.khronos.org/files/gltf20-reference-guide.pdf" target="_blank">https://www.khronos.org/files/gltf20-reference-guide.pdf</a> </p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>- p.5,6,7</p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Getting past blockages in the HAnim project and on to node improvements might help later when harmonizing with glTF skinning.</p></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> </p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>On Fri, Jun 26, 2020 at 3:52 PM Joseph D Williams <<a href="mailto:joedwil@earthlink.net" target="_blank">joedwil@earthlink.net</a>> wrote:</p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:4.8pt'> </p><ul type=disc><li class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l3 level1 lfo4'>My conceptual model is a bit different. </li></ul><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:4.8pt'> </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:4.8pt'>That is OK by me as long as it works. Whatever, Joint hierarchies will operate just like practical hierarchies of standard x3d Transform nodes, using center of rotation concept. </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:4.8pt'> </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:4.8pt'>For the Humanoid, if there are more joints in the capture than the playback, then you “ignore” some sets of values. If there are more joints in the playback than the capture, then, if the hierarchy is still ok, you don’t send events to the extra joints, or just send the default. </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:4.8pt'>The x3d tool should be able to help an author by first giving a list of what joints, segments, sites are available in the playback skeleton defined In the Humanoid skeleton. All the author needs to do to use existing x3d timer/interpolator/route animations is connect up the animation events to the skeleton Joint DEFs. Multiple, selectable animation routines can reside inside or outside the Humanoid, and prototype behaviors are very usable and very sharable between similar characters. In general, these animations are designed for realtime rather than frametime, but of course can be used to produce a frame at any time. However, these animations by themselves may not directly define the skeleton they apply to, or the initial pose. </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:4.8pt'> </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:4.8pt'>For x3d HAnim Humanoid Motion style, I think we are trying to access a perhaps more public range of animations, by the easiest way possible. From what I have seen these mostly use capture intervals related to video or film and are typically oversampled for typical realtime needs, and also, since mainly using xyz data, are subject to unpredictable animations, particularly fast wide motions. However, we want to make it convenient for an author, so we want to use the data in the bvh file to help connect the skeletons with the data. </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:4.8pt'>Turns out this may be easy because the bvh file contains configuration data for the capture skeleton as well as the animation data. Now all we must do is connect the skeletons and then the data and events are all handled under the covers. In this case, it is possible that a tool could for example, display a model of the capture skeleton and the playback skeleton to help the author decide how to proceed, or even, if the names matched, do it automagically. </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:4.8pt'>A Humanoid Motion animation resides in the Humanoid object and for best automation, should include enough information to reconstruct the capture skeleton hierarchy. In order to establish this baseline, the existing Motion node wants the author to transcribe important bvh data into x3d data forms and place it within the Humanoid Motion node. This practice also tends to help transportability between various typical capture skeletons and x3d hanim ‘standard’ skeletons. </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:4.8pt'> </p><ul type=disc><li class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l7 level1 lfo5'>Your loa4 idea makes sense if you don't want to ignore…. </li></ul><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:4.8pt'> </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:4.8pt'>I still think the idea behind ‘ignore’ is that if you have more joints and data in for the capture skeleton than the playback skeleton can use. The author has determined that some of the capture data has to be ignored and not sent to playback skeleton, so those joints are labeled with ‘ignore’ keyword in order to declare that the related data is not to be used. Please tell me if this is not what is intended. </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:4.8pt'>If that is the case then the playback skeleton will never know because no events are sent to joints that are not there. </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:4.8pt'>If you have more joints in the playback skeleton, then it is ok and no capture data needs to be ignored and playback joints that don’t get data don’t care and work as if not there. </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:4.8pt'> </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:4.8pt'>Thanks for thinking about this, </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:4.8pt'>Joe</p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:4.8pt'> </p><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:4.8pt'><b>From: </b><a href="mailto:gpugroup@gmail.com" target="_blank">GPU Group</a><br><b>Sent: </b>Wednesday, June 24, 2020 4:33 PM<br><b>To: </b><a href="mailto:joedwil@earthlink.net" target="_blank">Joseph D Williams</a><br><b>Cc: </b><a href="mailto:spec-comment@web3d.org" target="_blank">Spec Feedback</a>; <a href="mailto:x3d@web3d.org" target="_blank">x3d@web3d.org</a><br><b>Subject: </b>Re: [x3d] Spec Comment by dougsanden on 19774-2: HAnim Motion Capture -V1.0</p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:4.8pt'> </p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:4.8pt'>My conceptual model is a bit different. </p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:4.8pt'>- skeletal joint asks for joint information from MotionData/MotionClip, joint by joint when traversing the skeletal joint hierarchy.</p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:4.8pt'>Your loa4 idea makes sense if you don't want to ignore.And -depending on your implementation, like you say you'd get identity transforms -no joint motion- for joints MotionClip doesn't have.</p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:4.8pt'>-Doug</p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:4.8pt'> </p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:4.8pt'>On Wed, Jun 24, 2020 at 5:20 PM Joseph D Williams <<a href="mailto:joedwil@earthlink.net" target="_blank">joedwil@earthlink.net</a>> wrote:</p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><ul type=disc><li class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l8 level1 lfo6'>and they have a brief statement somewhere saying its ignored ie the values field has it, but the humanoid doesn;t.</li><li class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l8 level1 lfo6'>But they didn't say mathematically what to do about it.</li></ul><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.2in'> </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.2in'>OK, so there are Motion values for a joint in from the capture skeleton but either they do not apply to a Joint in the playback skeleton, or there is no corresponding joint in the playback skeleton. Thus, as an author, you just want to ignore that set of values in the Motion values field. </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.2in'> </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.2in'>For a typical animation routine, if you send events to a node that is not there, you get an error.</p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.2in'>If there is a Joint in the capture skeleton that does not appear in the playback skeleton, then you don’t try to send events to that joint, because it is not there. So, if the Joint is actually present, then that Joint will remain in its default orientation. </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.2in'>This is OK, and the skeleton does not mind at all, it is like the Joint is not there except it is and may have child Joint hierarchy. Of course in that case the parent of the ignored joint controls the child hierarchy. If whatever animation device is under the covers thinks it must send data to that joint, then don’t use the Motion values, just send 0 0 1 0 each cycle.</p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.2in'> </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.2in'>Ignore, means Hey, my capture skeleton has a Joint and I have data for it but my playback skeleton does not have that joint. I am trying to import, for example, some LOA4 animations into my LOA3 playback skeleton. As an author you are choosing to refuse to give your loa3 an update and you must confess that fact by using IGNORE in your Motion node list. </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.2in'> </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.2in'>At least that has been my experience, when using animations aimed at a higher or lower loa than the playback skeleton. For lower loa playback skeleton, just comment out the interpolators and routes for the unused Joint nodes. If higher loa playback skeleton, then problems because the hierarchy does not care about ignoring intermediate joints. Just don’t send data or if you must, just send 0 0 1 0 to the ignored joint.</p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.2in'> </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.2in'>This is again why you want to just go ahead and start work with the loa4 playback skeleton. Because it is ok to ignore it if you don’t have data for it. It is always not ok to not send data to something that is not there and any browser should tell you and probably should fail if you try to do that.</p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.2in'>Thanks,.</p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.2in'>Joe</p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.2in'> </p><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.2in'><b>From: </b><a href="mailto:gpugroup@gmail.com" target="_blank">GPU Group</a><br><b>Sent: </b>Wednesday, June 24, 2020 3:33 PM<br><b>To: </b><a href="mailto:joedwil@earthlink.net" target="_blank">Joseph D Williams</a><br><b>Cc: </b><a href="mailto:spec-comment@web3d.org" target="_blank">Spec Feedback</a>; <a href="mailto:x3d@web3d.org" target="_blank">x3d@web3d.org</a><br><b>Subject: </b>Re: [x3d] Spec Comment by dougsanden on 19774-2: HAnim Motion Capture -V1.0</p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.2in'> </p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.2in'>The IGNORED is in the Motion AnnexD example scene:</p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.2in'> <HAnimMotion frameCount="392" enabled='true' loop='true' frameTime = "0.033333" frameDuration=".033333"</p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.2in'> joints="humanoid_root, l_hip, l_knee, l_talocrural, r_hip,</p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.2in'> r_knee, r_talocrural, vl5, IGNORED, l_shoulder,</p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.2in'> l_elbow, l_radiocarpal, IGNORED, r_shoulder, r_elbow,</p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.2in'> r_radiocarpal, IGNORED, skullbase"</p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.2in'>and they have a brief statement somewhere saying its ignored ie the values field has it, but the humanoid doesn;t.</p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.2in'>But they didn't say mathematically what to do about it. My interpretation is that you would accumulate the ignored values as you go down the bvh limb tree to get the next joint. If you're working call-by-call, to make sure the transform fetcher understands what's been skipped, you woult tell it the previous joint you asked for when asking for the next (and it would look at the bvh and see you are ignoring some joints)</p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.2in'>getNextJointTransform(lastJoint,currentJoint,time,&transform)</p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.2in'>something like that. I'm not doing that yet, and haven't proven the theory of joint transform accumulation.</p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.2in'>The likely reason the AnnexD model didn't seem to mind / looked like its bvh animation in blender: the IGNORED values were zeros anyway. I was lucky,</p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.2in'>The nature of matching up free downloaded bvh with any loa hanim character I have means we;ll be skipping and some and some joints never captured by the mocap system / not in the bvh list. For freewrl users, that's OK - doesn't need to be perfect, just needs to get us into the game and having fun experimenting. .</p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.2in'>-Doug</p></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.2in'> </p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.2in'>On Wed, Jun 24, 2020 at 4:18 PM Joseph D Williams <<a href="mailto:joedwil@earthlink.net" target="_blank">joedwil@earthlink.net</a>> wrote:</p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><ul type=disc><li class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l9 level1 lfo7'>- IGNORE - the transform fetcher needs to accumulate the ignored transforms to apply to the next non-ignored joint in the</li></ul><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:24.0pt'> </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:24.0pt'>Not sure what the transform fetcher does but this is no different than having an intermediate joint that is not animated.? In operation, not animating a Joint does not cause any problems. That is why it is always good to pick the loa4 skeleton for most fun. If a joint is ignored, it is just not animated and remains in its default position. Its children may still be animated. </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:24.0pt'>Anyway, am I missing something? Ignored just means there is no animation driving that Joint. The bigger problem is when you have animation trying to drive a joint that is not there. Mostly the browser will tell you that.</p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:24.0pt'> </p><ul type=disc><li class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo8'>No need for the software to complain if bvh doesn't match.</li></ul><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:24.0pt'> </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:24.0pt'>I think if Motion node cannot find a matching Joint somewhere, then failure until you get the list right and all named joints matched up[. </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:24.0pt'>If you look at some sample typical timer/interpolator/route setup and you try to drive a joint that is not there or has the different name, then it will usually tell you about missing sources or targets. Maybe I don’t understand what ignore refers to? What does ignore refer to? A Joint in the Humanoid skeleton, a joint in the capture skeleton, or a set of data for a joint in the bvh file?</p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:24.0pt'>Thanks, </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:24.0pt'>Joe</p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:24.0pt'> </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:24.0pt'> </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:24.0pt'> </p><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:24.0pt'><b>From: </b><a href="mailto:gpugroup@gmail.com" target="_blank">GPU Group</a><br><b>Sent: </b>Wednesday, June 24, 2020 5:56 AM<br><b>To: </b><a href="mailto:joedwil@earthlink.net" target="_blank">Joseph D Williams</a><br><b>Cc: </b><a href="mailto:spec-comment@web3d.org" target="_blank">Spec Feedback</a>; <a href="mailto:x3d@web3d.org" target="_blank">x3d@web3d.org</a><br><b>Subject: </b>Re: [x3d] Spec Comment by dougsanden on 19774-2: HAnim Motion Capture -V1.0</p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:24.0pt'> </p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:24.0pt'>No need for the software to complain if bvh doesn't match.</p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:24.0pt'>Already in the HAnim2 specification for Motion they use the IGNORE keyword when when HH is skipping a joint the bvh has. Not shown in the spec, but likely to happen is the bvh not having a joint that the HH has, what I call NOT_IMPLEMENTED, to keep it separate from IGNORE</p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:24.0pt'>- IGNORE - the transform fetcher needs to accumulate the ignored transforms to apply to the next non-ignored joint in the limb tree I didn't do this yet, but should have it somewhere, so it applies also in in the original Motion node if there are IGNOREs.</p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:24.0pt'>- NOT_IMPLEMENTED (bvh doesn't have the joint) - the HH would get an identity transform back for that joint.</p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:24.0pt'>-Doug</p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:24.0pt'> </p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:24.0pt'>On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 9:36 PM Joseph D Williams <<a href="mailto:joedwil@earthlink.net" target="_blank">joedwil@earthlink.net</a>> wrote:</p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><ul type=disc><li class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l5 level1 lfo9'>Then one mapping node … </li></ul><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:33.6pt'> </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:33.6pt'>Currently the Humanoid skeleton declares its active Joint nodes by naming each Joint node and by including list of used Joints in the Humanoid joints field.</p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:33.6pt'>I think the Motion node also declares the joints it wants to use by listing in the Motion node. </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:33.6pt'>To my knowledge there is no requirement that the Humanoid joints list be in any specific order. </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:33.6pt'>I think the Humanoid Motion joints field needs the list in some order relating to the data. </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:33.6pt'>The point is that for Motion to work, it must find the appropriate Joint name in the Humanoid joints field. </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:33.6pt'> </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:33.6pt'>My only big point is that both of those lists should look about the same (MF strings). If you want a skeleton that is matched to the bvh data, then we change the names in the imported bvh to match the names used in the skeleton field and enumerated in the Humanoid joints field. Some help could be given to an author helping to match the bvh skeleton nomenclature with the Humanoid joints. Or if you are really serious about using bvh data, then gather enough examples to suggest a ‘typical standard’ bvh skeleton and data, then compose a skeleton in the Humanoid skeleton field to match and then you might use a ‘typical standard’ Motion fields. </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:33.6pt'> </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:33.6pt'>The main idea of the Humanoid joints field is to list the actual joints that are available in the skeleton model. The purpose of the joints list in the Motion node is to declare which of those joints will be active in the current simulation. In this case, if the capture skeleton is the same as the playback skeleton, no problem to just change the data. </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:33.6pt'> </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:33.6pt'>So, the only things the browser needs to figure out is: Do the Motion joints match the skeleton joints and complain if not.</p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:33.6pt'> </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:33.6pt'>Best Regards and Thanks for thoughts on this. </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:33.6pt'>Joe</p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:33.6pt'> </p><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:33.6pt'><b>From: </b><a href="mailto:spec-comment@web3d.org" target="_blank">Spec Feedback</a><br><b>Sent: </b>Tuesday, June 23, 2020 6:02 AM<br><b>To: </b><a href="mailto:x3d@web3d.org" target="_blank">x3d@web3d.org</a><br><b>Subject: </b>[x3d] Spec Comment by dougsanden on 19774-2: HAnim Motion Capture -V1.0</p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:33.6pt'> </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:33.6pt'>-- Submitter indicates that this comment may be public: *Yes* --</p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:33.6pt'> </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:33.6pt'>Comment on 19774-2: HAnim Motion Capture - V1.0</p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:33.6pt'> </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:33.6pt'> </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:33.6pt'> </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:33.6pt'>-----------------</p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:33.6pt'>Proposed Explicit Name Mapping node</p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:33.6pt'>NameMapping</p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:33.6pt'>MFString A []</p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:33.6pt'>MFString B []</p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:33.6pt'> </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:33.6pt'>Esample:</p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:33.6pt'> </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:33.6pt'> </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:33.6pt'>Discussion:</p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:33.6pt'>not necessary to have IGNORED or NOT_IMPLEMENTED - that would be the default</p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:33.6pt'>if not found during lookup.</p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:33.6pt'>Then one mapping node can be used for multiple .bvh from various sources.</p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:33.6pt'>Putting a mapping node into both HAnimHumanoid HH and HAnimMotionClip/Data</p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:33.6pt'>HMC would allow a 2-step lookup:</p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:33.6pt'>- HH to loa, loa to HMC</p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:33.6pt'>- A previous comment shows the math advantage of 2 step</p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:33.6pt'>If no mapping nodes present, browser would assume names are same in HH and</p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:33.6pt'>HMC</p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:33.6pt'>- if one mapping node in either HH or HMC, then a 1-step lookup is done</p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:33.6pt'> </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:33.6pt'> </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:33.6pt'>-----------------</p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:33.6pt'> </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:33.6pt'>Submitted on Tuesday, 2020, June 23 - 7:02am</p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:33.6pt'>by dougsanden (dougsanden )</p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:33.6pt'>IP: 75.159.18.239</p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:33.6pt'> </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:33.6pt'>See: <a href="https://www.web3d.org/node/1694/submission/4051" target="_blank">https://www.web3d.org/node/1694/submission/4051</a></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:33.6pt'> </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:33.6pt'> </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:33.6pt'>_______________________________________________</p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:33.6pt'>x3d mailing list</p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:33.6pt'><a href="mailto:x3d@web3d.org" target="_blank">x3d@web3d.org</a></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:33.6pt'><a href="http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d_web3d.org" target="_blank">http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d_web3d.org</a></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:33.6pt'> </p></div></div></blockquote></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.4in'>_______________________________________________<br>x3d mailing list<br><a href="mailto:x3d@web3d.org" target="_blank">x3d@web3d.org</a><br><a href="http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d_web3d.org" target="_blank">http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d_web3d.org</a></p></div></div></blockquote></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:19.2pt'> </p></div></div></blockquote></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'> </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:4.8pt'> </p></div></div></blockquote></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:4.8pt'> </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> </p></div></div></blockquote></div></blockquote></div></div></blockquote></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'>_______________________________________________<br>x3d-public mailing list<br><a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org" target="_blank">x3d-public@web3d.org</a><br><a href="http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org" target="_blank">http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org</a></p></div></div></blockquote></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:4.8pt'> </p></div></div></blockquote></div></blockquote></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'> </p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></body></html>