<html><head></head><body><div style="font-family: Verdana;font-size: 12.0px;"><div>For sure.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>And they should work</div>
<ul>
<li>in Instant Player, BS Contact, FreeWRL, Octaga, .............</li>
<li>with or without VR/AR/MR</li>
<li>all together in a multiuser session</li>
<li>with any of at least two MU Server implementations</li>
<li>with any of at least two virtual globes for the geographic infrastructure</li>
</ul>
<div>all open source and royalty free, but with proper licensing and payment by the user.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>user = scene author, model author, session provider, player, collaborateur, any IoT equipment</div>
<div> </div>
<div>This would be what-I-call "carrier grade X3D" :-)</div>
<div>
<div>No worry. Nobody likes it, it won't be realized :-)
<div name="quote" style="margin:10px 5px 5px 10px; padding: 10px 0 10px 10px; border-left:2px solid #C3D9E5; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;">
<div style="margin:0 0 10px 0;"><b>Gesendet:</b> Samstag, 28. November 2020 um 20:58 Uhr<br/>
<b>Von:</b> "John Carlson" <yottzumm@gmail.com><br/>
<b>An:</b> "Christoph Valentin" <christoph.valentin@gmx.at><br/>
<b>Cc:</b> "X3D Graphics public mailing list" <x3d-public@web3d.org>, andreasplesch@gmail.com<br/>
<b>Betreff:</b> Re: [x3d-public] Fwd: ProtoInstance USE without name</div>
<div name="quoted-content">
<div>In particular, if we have a true standard, X_ITE examples should work in X3DOM and vica versa. We’ve made good progress at that.</div>
<div>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div class="gmail_attr">On Sat, Nov 28, 2020 at 1:34 PM John Carlson <<a href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com" onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com'; return false;" target="_blank">yottzumm@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.8ex;border-left-width: 1.0px;border-left-style: solid;padding-left: 1.0ex;border-left-color: rgb(204,204,204);">
<div> </div>
<div>Yes, everything needs to be tested. My recent test cases apply to HAnim. I encourage people as we produce HAnim LOA4 examples to test them. We should get back to that next week, I hope.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>John
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div class="gmail_attr">On Sat, Nov 28, 2020 at 1:04 PM Christoph Valentin <<a href="mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at" onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at'; return false;" target="_blank">christoph.valentin@gmx.at</a>> wrote:</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.8ex;border-left-width: 1.0px;border-left-style: solid;padding-left: 1.0ex;border-left-color: rgb(204,204,204);">
<div>
<div style="line-height: 1;padding: 0.5em;">That's great.<br/>
<br/>
And I felt free to provide three .x3d files in order to test the translators as well as classical X3D players, as Andreas asked me.<br/>
<br/>
--<br/>
Diese Nachricht wurde von meinem Android Mobiltelefon mit GMX Mail gesendet.</div>
<div style="line-height: 1;padding: 0.3em;">
<div>Am 28.11.20, 19:48 schrieb John Carlson <<a href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com" onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com'; return false;" target="_blank">yottzumm@gmail.com</a>>:</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0.8ex 0.0pt 0.0pt 0.8ex;border-left-width: 1.0px;border-left-style: solid;padding-left: 1.0ex;border-left-color: rgb(204,204,204);">
<div>Christopher, I have no real control over XML to JSON, even though I have a little used tool which does it.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>My primary goal is rendering JSON as other “encodings.”</div>
<div> </div>
<div>So if something doesn’t match my schema, it gets flagged. If we allow name along with USE, that means I have to put special-case code in my schema generating tool. My goal is to stop bad JSON at its source, namely X3dToJson.xslt.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>In other words, I don’t want to write schema that won’t appear in the standard (TBD).</div>
<div> </div>
<div>It is much easier for humans to understand consistent rules, and not a bunch of if statements testing for whether I’m dealing with a ProtoInstance and therefore I need to do something different.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Let’s make one rule and apply it to all instances of name and USE in a node.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>John</div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div class="gmail_attr">On Sat, Nov 28, 2020 at 12:31 PM Christoph Valentin <<a href="mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at" onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at'; return false;" target="_blank">christoph.valentin@gmx.at</a>> wrote:</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.8ex;border-left-width: 1.0px;border-left-style: solid;padding-left: 1.0ex;border-left-color: rgb(204,204,204);">
<div>
<div style="line-height: 1;padding: 0.5em;">hi John.<br/>
<br/>
Understand.<br/>
<br/>
All I can remember, when I did my trials with x3d, then some players insisted on the "name" attribute, others considered it an error, at least a warning.<br/>
<br/>
Using <Script> was a compromise that just worked.<br/>
<br/>
So lets wait the test results, before defining the behavior of relay software between XML and JSON (which should be applicable to ALL browsers and users).<br/>
<br/>
I do not know if I'm the only one who used the <Script>- Woraround.<br/>
<br/>
kr<br/>
<br/>
--<br/>
Diese Nachricht wurde von meinem Android Mobiltelefon mit GMX Mail gesendet.</div>
<div style="line-height: 1;padding: 0.3em;">
<div>Am 28.11.20, 19:09 schrieb John Carlson <<a href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com" onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com'; return false;" target="_blank">yottzumm@gmail.com</a>>:</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0.8ex 0.0pt 0.0pt 0.8ex;border-left-width: 1.0px;border-left-style: solid;padding-left: 1.0ex;border-left-color: rgb(204,204,204);">
<div>I don’t see JSON schema moving through IETF quickly, and last I heard, they were going to standardize 4 different drafts of JSON schema. They are even seeking assistance when taking the draft to IETF. Volunteers?</div>
<div> </div>
<div>X3D does not have a standardized JSON schema. The best we have for USE might work across all versions of X3D. I do not know the history of USE.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>It is my intention to maintain a JSON schema for each X3DUOM versions.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>I don’t think we’re putting validation in the standard, that’s up to the vendors.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>I don’t ever recall seeing X3D XML schema in a standard?</div>
<div> </div>
<div>John</div>
<div>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div class="gmail_attr">On Sat, Nov 28, 2020 at 11:52 AM Christoph Valentin <<a href="mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at" onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at'; return false;" target="_blank">christoph.valentin@gmx.at</a>> wrote:</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.8ex;border-left-width: 1.0px;border-left-style: solid;padding-left: 1.0ex;border-left-color: rgb(204,204,204);">
<div>
<div style="font-family: Verdana;font-size: 12.0px;">
<div style="font-family: Verdana;">Hi John,</div>
<div style="font-family: Verdana;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: Verdana;">as far as I think to understand the IETF community, the robustness principle is meant to be applied for cases, when the standard is fuzzy.</div>
<div style="font-family: Verdana;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: Verdana;">So it applies to our case here.</div>
<div style="font-family: Verdana;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: Verdana;">You can do a very strict validation, if a standard</div>
<ul style="font-family: Verdana;">
<li style="font-family: Verdana;">is well-defined, well-accepted, well-deployed and precise</li>
<li style="font-family: Verdana;">is not subject to future changes nor has got a past</li>
</ul>
<div style="font-family: Verdana;">Otherwise every validation must accept compromises</div>
<div style="font-family: Verdana;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: Verdana;">Agree?</div>
<div style="font-family: Verdana;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: Verdana;">KR</div>
<div style="font-family: Verdana;">Christoph</div>
<div style="font-family: Verdana;">
<div style="font-family: Verdana;">
<div style="margin: 10.0px 5.0px 5.0px 10.0px;padding: 10.0px 0.0px 10.0px 10.0px;border-left-width: 2.0px;border-left-style: solid;font-family: Verdana;border-left-color: rgb(195,217,229);">
<div style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 10.0px;font-family: Verdana;"><b style="font-family: Verdana;">Gesendet:</b> Samstag, 28. November 2020 um 18:36 Uhr<br/>
<b style="font-family: Verdana;">Von:</b> "John Carlson" <<a href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com" onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com'; return false;" style="font-family: Verdana;" target="_blank">yottzumm@gmail.com</a>><br/>
<b style="font-family: Verdana;">An:</b> "Christoph Valentin" <<a href="mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at" onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at'; return false;" style="font-family: Verdana;" target="_blank">christoph.valentin@gmx.at</a>><br/>
<b style="font-family: Verdana;">Cc:</b> "X3D Graphics public mailing list" <<a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org" onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org'; return false;" style="font-family: Verdana;" target="_blank">x3d-public@web3d.org</a>><br/>
<b style="font-family: Verdana;">Betreff:</b> Re: [x3d-public] Fwd: ProtoInstance USE without name</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="font-family: Verdana;font-size: 12.0px;">
<div style="font-family: Verdana;">
<div style="font-family: Verdana;">
<div style="margin: 10.0px 5.0px 5.0px 10.0px;padding: 10.0px 0.0px 10.0px 10.0px;border-left-width: 2.0px;border-left-style: solid;font-family: Verdana;border-left-color: rgb(195,217,229);">
<div style="font-family: Verdana;">
<div style="font-family: Verdana;">Should one accept SQL injection? No!</div>
<div style="font-family: Verdana;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: Verdana;">Note: I have not added any validation to X3DOM or X_ITE, and do not expect to.</div>
<div style="font-family: Verdana;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: Verdana;">I do not expect to strip out validation from X3DJSONLD anytime soon.</div>
<div style="font-family: Verdana;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: Verdana;">John</div>
<div style="font-family: Verdana;">
<div class="gmail_quote" style="font-family: Verdana;">
<div class="gmail_attr" style="font-family: Verdana;">On Sat, Nov 28, 2020 at 11:26 AM John Carlson <<a href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com" onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com'; return false;" style="font-family: Verdana;" target="_blank">yottzumm@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.8ex;border-left-width: 1.0px;border-left-style: solid;padding-left: 1.0ex;font-family: Verdana;border-left-color: rgb(204,204,204);">
<div style="font-family: Verdana;">If I accept everything, validation is useless. That’s why I provide a way for the user to override :).</div>
<div style="font-family: Verdana;">
<div class="gmail_quote" style="font-family: Verdana;">
<div class="gmail_attr" style="font-family: Verdana;">On Sat, Nov 28, 2020 at 11:22 AM Christoph Valentin <<a href="mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at" onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at'; return false;" style="font-family: Verdana;" target="_blank">christoph.valentin@gmx.at</a>> wrote:</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.8ex;border-left-width: 1.0px;border-left-style: solid;padding-left: 1.0ex;font-family: Verdana;border-left-color: rgb(204,204,204);">
<div style="font-family: Verdana;">
<div style="line-height: 1;padding: 0.5em;font-family: Verdana;">hi all<br/>
<br/>
Do you know Jon Postel's robustness principle?<br/>
<br/>
Be liberal in what you accept and conservative in what you send out.<br/>
<br/>
means: add the name attribute when sending<br/>
keep the name attribute when forwarding/proxying<br/>
ignore the name attribute when receiving.<br/>
kr<br/>
<br/>
--<br/>
Diese Nachricht wurde von meinem Android Mobiltelefon mit GMX Mail gesendet.</div>
<div style="line-height: 1;padding: 0.3em;font-family: Verdana;">
<div style="font-family: Verdana;">Am 28.11.20, 17:58 schrieb John Carlson <<a href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com" onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com'; return false;" style="font-family: Verdana;" target="_blank">yottzumm@gmail.com</a>>:</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0.8ex 0.0pt 0.0pt 0.8ex;border-left-width: 1.0px;border-left-style: solid;padding-left: 1.0ex;font-family: Verdana;border-left-color: rgb(204,204,204);">
<div style="font-family: Verdana;">Again, if USE is specified in a proto instance in X3D JSON, then X3DJSONLD and related tools will not validate a name property in the node. I suggest X3dToJson.xslt reject the spurious name when generating JSON.</div>
<div style="font-family: Verdana;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: Verdana;">John</div>
<div style="font-family: Verdana;">
<div class="gmail_quote" style="font-family: Verdana;">
<div class="gmail_attr" style="font-family: Verdana;">---------- Forwarded message ---------<br/>
From: <strong class="gmail_sendername" style="font-family: Verdana;">Christoph Valentin</strong> <span style="font-family: Verdana;"><<a href="mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at" onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at'; return false;" style="font-family: Verdana;" target="_blank">christoph.valentin@gmx.at</a>></span><br/>
Date: Sat, Nov 28, 2020 at 8:18 AM<br/>
Subject: Re: [x3d-public] ProtoInstance USE without name<br/>
To: Andreas Plesch <<a href="mailto:andreasplesch@gmail.com" onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:andreasplesch@gmail.com'; return false;" style="font-family: Verdana;" target="_blank">andreasplesch@gmail.com</a>><br/>
CC: X3D Graphics public mailing list <<a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org" onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org'; return false;" style="font-family: Verdana;" target="_blank">x3d-public@web3d.org</a>></div>
<div style="font-family: Verdana;">
<div style="font-family: Verdana;font-size: 12.0px;">
<div style="font-family: Verdana;">Hi Andreas,</div>
<div style="font-family: Verdana;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: Verdana;">I felt free to provide an example scene in three flavors.</div>
<div style="font-family: Verdana;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: Verdana;">The prototype renders a little pig that says "Eatme!", when you touch it (in remembrance of Douglas Adams)</div>
<div style="font-family: Verdana;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: Verdana;">Version A: <ProtoInstance USE="xxx" name="yyy"/> WITH name attribute - standards compliant</div>
<div style="font-family: Verdana;">Version B: <ProtoInstance USE="xxx"/> WITHOUT name attribute</div>
<div style="font-family: Verdana;">Version C: <Script USE="xxx"/> WORKAROUND - works for all browsers</div>
<div style="font-family: Verdana;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: Verdana;">I tested with BS Contact --- he can cope with all three versions.</div>
<div style="font-family: Verdana;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: Verdana;">Download the .zip file at <a href="https://lc-soc-lc.at/experimental/ProtoInstanceWithUSE/" style="font-family: Verdana;" target="_blank">https://lc-soc-lc.at/experimental/ProtoInstanceWithUSE/</a> I provide it by a GPLv3.</div>
<div style="font-family: Verdana;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: Verdana;">Feed Back welcome. You may take it and give it to your benchmark tests, if you like.</div>
<div style="font-family: Verdana;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: Verdana;">Kind regards,</div>
<div style="font-family: Verdana;">Christoph</div>
<div style="font-family: Verdana;">
<div style="font-family: Verdana;">
<div style="margin: 10.0px 5.0px 5.0px 10.0px;padding: 10.0px 0.0px 10.0px 10.0px;border-left-width: 2.0px;border-left-style: solid;font-family: Verdana;border-left-color: rgb(195,217,229);">
<div style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 10.0px;font-family: Verdana;"><b style="font-family: Verdana;">Gesendet:</b> Dienstag, 24. November 2020 um 00:30 Uhr<br/>
<b style="font-family: Verdana;">Von:</b> "Andreas Plesch" <<a href="mailto:andreasplesch@gmail.com" onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:andreasplesch@gmail.com'; return false;" style="font-family: Verdana;" target="_blank">andreasplesch@gmail.com</a>><br/>
<b style="font-family: Verdana;">An:</b> "Christoph Valentin" <<a href="mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at" onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at'; return false;" style="font-family: Verdana;" target="_blank">christoph.valentin@gmx.at</a>><br/>
<b style="font-family: Verdana;">Cc:</b> "X3D Graphics public mailing list" <<a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org" onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org'; return false;" style="font-family: Verdana;" target="_blank">x3d-public@web3d.org</a>><br/>
<b style="font-family: Verdana;">Betreff:</b> Re: [x3d-public] ProtoInstance USE without name</div>
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<div style="font-family: Verdana;">
<div style="font-family: Verdana;font-size: 12.0px;">
<div style="font-family: Verdana;">
<div style="font-family: Verdana;">
<div style="margin: 10.0px 5.0px 5.0px 10.0px;padding: 10.0px 0.0px 10.0px 10.0px;border-left-width: 2.0px;border-left-style: solid;font-family: Verdana;border-left-color: rgb(195,217,229);">
<div style="font-family: Verdana;">
<div style="font-family: Verdana;">Hi Christoph,
<div style="font-family: Verdana;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: Verdana;">thanks, interesting. Perhaps it will be useful to try a USE ProtoInstance in a very simple scene, in multiple browsers.</div>
<div style="font-family: Verdana;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: Verdana;">-Andreas</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_quote" style="font-family: Verdana;">
<div class="gmail_attr" style="font-family: Verdana;">On Mon, Nov 23, 2020 at 1:01 PM Christoph Valentin <<a href="mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at" onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at'; return false;" style="font-family: Verdana;" target="_blank">christoph.valentin@gmx.at</a>> wrote:</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.8ex;border-left-width: 1.0px;border-left-style: solid;padding-left: 1.0ex;font-family: Verdana;border-left-color: rgb(204,204,204);">
<div style="font-family: Verdana;">
<div style="font-family: Verdana;font-size: 12.0px;">
<div style="font-family: Verdana;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: Verdana;">
<div style="font-family: Verdana;">Hi</div>
<div style="font-family: Verdana;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: Verdana;">This bug is common to many X3D players (even classical non-WebGL X3D players).</div>
<div style="font-family: Verdana;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: Verdana;">I was used to use following workaround, which worked for all relevant players:</div>
<div style="font-family: Verdana;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: Verdana;">If I want to USE a DEFd ProtoInstance, I will actually instantiate a <Script> node with USE.</div>
<div style="font-family: Verdana;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: Verdana;">KR,</div>
<div style="font-family: Verdana;">Christoph</div>
<div style="font-family: Verdana;">
<div style="margin: 10.0px 5.0px 5.0px 10.0px;padding: 10.0px 0.0px 10.0px 10.0px;border-left-width: 2.0px;border-left-style: solid;font-family: Verdana;border-left-color: rgb(195,217,229);">
<div style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 10.0px;font-family: Verdana;"><b style="font-family: Verdana;">Gesendet:</b> Montag, 23. November 2020 um 00:00 Uhr<br/>
<b style="font-family: Verdana;">Von:</b> "Andreas Plesch" <<a href="mailto:andreasplesch@gmail.com" onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:andreasplesch@gmail.com'; return false;" style="font-family: Verdana;" target="_blank">andreasplesch@gmail.com</a>><br/>
<b style="font-family: Verdana;">An:</b> "X3D Graphics public mailing list" <<a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org" onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org'; return false;" style="font-family: Verdana;" target="_blank">x3d-public@web3d.org</a>><br/>
<b style="font-family: Verdana;">Betreff:</b> [x3d-public] ProtoInstance USE without name</div>
<div style="font-family: Verdana;">
<div style="font-family: Verdana;">Looking at why the old Prototypes for HAnim did not work properly for x3dom, I found that the xml examples typically have a ProtoInstance statement with a USE attribute but without the corresponding name attribute defining the actual node type. However, x3dom expects a name attribute with every ProtoInstance statement, even USE ones, to be able to insert the appropriate node.
<div style="font-family: Verdana;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: Verdana;">The xml spec at</div>
<div style="font-family: Verdana;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: Verdana;"><a href="https://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19776-1/V3.3/Part01/concepts.html#ProtoInstanceAndFieldValueStatement" style="font-family: Verdana;" target="_blank">https://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19776-1/V3.3/Part01/concepts.html#ProtoInstanceAndFieldValueStatement</a></div>
<div style="font-family: Verdana;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: Verdana;">does not address USE of ProtoInstances but all examples always have a name attribute.</div>
<div style="font-family: Verdana;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: Verdana;">Also, in my quite extensive testing of Protos, I did not come across other examples of ProtoInstance elements without a name attribute.</div>
<div style="font-family: Verdana;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: Verdana;">To be fair, the name attribute is not strictly necessary for USE ProtoInstances since the type of the inserted node can be determined from the referenced DEF node. But having the name attribute makes ProtoInstance elements more similar to regular nodes. So I think not requiring the name attribute for USE ProtoInstances should be explicitly allowed in the xml spec., but still be encouraged.</div>
<div style="font-family: Verdana;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: Verdana;">I do not think the xml spec. would be otherwise affected by V.4 ?</div>
<div style="font-family: Verdana;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: Verdana;">Best, Andreas</div>
<div style="font-family: Verdana;"> </div>
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<div style="font-family: Verdana;">Andreas Plesch<br/>
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<div style="font-family: Verdana;">Andreas Plesch<br/>
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