<div dir="auto">In particular, if we have a true standard, X_ITE examples should work in X3DOM and vica versa. We’ve made good progress at that.</div><div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, Nov 28, 2020 at 1:34 PM John Carlson <<a href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com">yottzumm@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)"><div><br></div><div dir="auto">Yes, everything needs to be tested. My recent test cases apply to HAnim. I encourage people as we produce HAnim LOA4 examples to test them. We should get back to that next week, I hope.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">John<br><div class="gmail_quote" dir="auto"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, Nov 28, 2020 at 1:04 PM Christoph Valentin <<a href="mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at" target="_blank">christoph.valentin@gmx.at</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)">
<div style="word-break:break-word"><div style="line-height:1;padding:0.5em">That's great.<br><br>And I felt free to provide three .x3d files in order to test the translators as well as classical X3D players, as Andreas asked me.<br><br>-- <br>Diese Nachricht wurde von meinem Android Mobiltelefon mit GMX Mail gesendet.</div><div style="line-height:1;padding:0.3em"><div>Am 28.11.20, 19:48 schrieb John Carlson <<a href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com" target="_blank">yottzumm@gmail.com</a>>:</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0.8ex 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)">
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Christopher, I have no real control over XML to JSON, even though I have a little used tool which does it.
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My primary goal is rendering JSON as other “encodings.”
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So if something doesn’t match my schema, it gets flagged. If we allow name along with USE, that means I have to put special-case code in my schema generating tool. My goal is to stop bad JSON at its source, namely X3dToJson.xslt.
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In other words, I don’t want to write schema that won’t appear in the standard (TBD).
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It is much easier for humans to understand consistent rules, and not a bunch of if statements testing for whether I’m dealing with a ProtoInstance and therefore I need to do something different.
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Let’s make one rule and apply it to all instances of name and USE in a node.
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John
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On Sat, Nov 28, 2020 at 12:31 PM Christoph Valentin <<a href="mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at" target="_blank">christoph.valentin@gmx.at</a>> wrote:
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hi John.
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<br>Understand.
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<br>All I can remember, when I did my trials with x3d, then some players insisted on the "name" attribute, others considered it an error, at least a warning.
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<br>Using <Script> was a compromise that just worked.
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<br>So lets wait the test results, before defining the behavior of relay software between XML and JSON (which should be applicable to ALL browsers and users).
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<br>I do not know if I'm the only one who used the <Script>- Woraround.
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<br>kr
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<br>--
<br>Diese Nachricht wurde von meinem Android Mobiltelefon mit GMX Mail gesendet.
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Am 28.11.20, 19:09 schrieb John Carlson <<a href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com" target="_blank">yottzumm@gmail.com</a>>:
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I don’t see JSON schema moving through IETF quickly, and last I heard, they were going to standardize 4 different drafts of JSON schema. They are even seeking assistance when taking the draft to IETF. Volunteers?
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X3D does not have a standardized JSON schema. The best we have for USE might work across all versions of X3D. I do not know the history of USE.
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It is my intention to maintain a JSON schema for each X3DUOM versions.
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I don’t think we’re putting validation in the standard, that’s up to the vendors.
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I don’t ever recall seeing X3D XML schema in a standard?
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John
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On Sat, Nov 28, 2020 at 11:52 AM Christoph Valentin <<a href="mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at" target="_blank">christoph.valentin@gmx.at</a>> wrote:
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Hi John,
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as far as I think to understand the IETF community, the robustness principle is meant to be applied for cases, when the standard is fuzzy.
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So it applies to our case here.
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You can do a very strict validation, if a standard
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<li style="font-family:Verdana">is well-defined, well-accepted, well-deployed and precise</li>
<li style="font-family:Verdana">is not subject to future changes nor has got a past</li>
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Otherwise every validation must accept compromises
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Agree?
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KR
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Christoph
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<div style="margin:0px 0px 10px;font-family:Verdana"> <b style="font-family:Verdana">Gesendet:</b> Samstag, 28. November 2020 um 18:36 Uhr
<br> <b style="font-family:Verdana">Von:</b> "John Carlson" <<a href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com" style="font-family:Verdana" target="_blank">yottzumm@gmail.com</a>>
<br> <b style="font-family:Verdana">An:</b> "Christoph Valentin" <<a href="mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at" style="font-family:Verdana" target="_blank">christoph.valentin@gmx.at</a>>
<br> <b style="font-family:Verdana">Cc:</b> "X3D Graphics public mailing list" <<a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org" style="font-family:Verdana" target="_blank">x3d-public@web3d.org</a>>
<br> <b style="font-family:Verdana">Betreff:</b> Re: [x3d-public] Fwd: ProtoInstance USE without name
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Should one accept SQL injection? No!
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Note: I have not added any validation to X3DOM or X_ITE, and do not expect to.
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I do not expect to strip out validation from X3DJSONLD anytime soon.
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John
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On Sat, Nov 28, 2020 at 11:26 AM John Carlson <<a href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com" style="font-family:Verdana" target="_blank">yottzumm@gmail.com</a>> wrote:
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If I accept everything, validation is useless. That’s why I provide a way for the user to override :).
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On Sat, Nov 28, 2020 at 11:22 AM Christoph Valentin <<a href="mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at" style="font-family:Verdana" target="_blank">christoph.valentin@gmx.at</a>> wrote:
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hi all
<br>
<br> Do you know Jon Postel's robustness principle?
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<br> Be liberal in what you accept and conservative in what you send out.
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<br> means: add the name attribute when sending
<br> keep the name attribute when forwarding/proxying
<br> ignore the name attribute when receiving.
<br> kr
<br>
<br> --
<br> Diese Nachricht wurde von meinem Android Mobiltelefon mit GMX Mail gesendet.
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Am 28.11.20, 17:58 schrieb John Carlson <<a href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com" style="font-family:Verdana" target="_blank">yottzumm@gmail.com</a>>:
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Again, if USE is specified in a proto instance in X3D JSON, then X3DJSONLD and related tools will not validate a name property in the node. I suggest X3dToJson.xslt reject the spurious name when generating JSON.
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John
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---------- Forwarded message ---------
<br> From: <strong class="gmail_sendername" style="font-family:Verdana">Christoph Valentin</strong> <span style="font-family:Verdana"><<a href="mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at" style="font-family:Verdana" target="_blank">christoph.valentin@gmx.at</a>></span>
<br> Date: Sat, Nov 28, 2020 at 8:18 AM
<br> Subject: Re: [x3d-public] ProtoInstance USE without name
<br> To: Andreas Plesch <<a href="mailto:andreasplesch@gmail.com" style="font-family:Verdana" target="_blank">andreasplesch@gmail.com</a>>
<br> CC: X3D Graphics public mailing list <<a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org" style="font-family:Verdana" target="_blank">x3d-public@web3d.org</a>>
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Hi Andreas,
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I felt free to provide an example scene in three flavors.
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The prototype renders a little pig that says "Eatme!", when you touch it (in remembrance of Douglas Adams)
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Version A: <ProtoInstance USE="xxx" name="yyy"/> WITH name attribute - standards compliant
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Version B: <ProtoInstance USE="xxx"/> WITHOUT name attribute
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Version C: <Script USE="xxx"/> WORKAROUND - works for all browsers
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I tested with BS Contact --- he can cope with all three versions.
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Download the .zip file at <a href="https://lc-soc-lc.at/experimental/ProtoInstanceWithUSE/" style="font-family:Verdana" target="_blank">https://lc-soc-lc.at/experimental/ProtoInstanceWithUSE/</a> I provide it by a GPLv3.
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Feed Back welcome. You may take it and give it to your benchmark tests, if you like.
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Kind regards,
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Christoph
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<div style="margin:10px 5px 5px 10px;padding:10px 0px 10px 10px;border-left-width:2px;border-left-style:solid;font-family:Verdana;border-left-color:rgb(195,217,229)">
<div style="margin:0px 0px 10px;font-family:Verdana"> <b style="font-family:Verdana">Gesendet:</b> Dienstag, 24. November 2020 um 00:30 Uhr
<br> <b style="font-family:Verdana">Von:</b> "Andreas Plesch" <<a href="mailto:andreasplesch@gmail.com" style="font-family:Verdana" target="_blank">andreasplesch@gmail.com</a>>
<br> <b style="font-family:Verdana">An:</b> "Christoph Valentin" <<a href="mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at" style="font-family:Verdana" target="_blank">christoph.valentin@gmx.at</a>>
<br> <b style="font-family:Verdana">Cc:</b> "X3D Graphics public mailing list" <<a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org" style="font-family:Verdana" target="_blank">x3d-public@web3d.org</a>>
<br> <b style="font-family:Verdana">Betreff:</b> Re: [x3d-public] ProtoInstance USE without name
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Hi Christoph,
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thanks, interesting. Perhaps it will be useful to try a USE ProtoInstance in a very simple scene, in multiple browsers.
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-Andreas
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On Mon, Nov 23, 2020 at 1:01 PM Christoph Valentin <<a href="mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at" style="font-family:Verdana" target="_blank">christoph.valentin@gmx.at</a>> wrote:
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Hi
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This bug is common to many X3D players (even classical non-WebGL X3D players).
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I was used to use following workaround, which worked for all relevant players:
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If I want to USE a DEFd ProtoInstance, I will actually instantiate a <Script> node with USE.
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KR,
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Christoph
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<div style="margin:10px 5px 5px 10px;padding:10px 0px 10px 10px;border-left-width:2px;border-left-style:solid;font-family:Verdana;border-left-color:rgb(195,217,229)">
<div style="margin:0px 0px 10px;font-family:Verdana"> <b style="font-family:Verdana">Gesendet:</b> Montag, 23. November 2020 um 00:00 Uhr
<br> <b style="font-family:Verdana">Von:</b> "Andreas Plesch" <<a href="mailto:andreasplesch@gmail.com" style="font-family:Verdana" target="_blank">andreasplesch@gmail.com</a>>
<br> <b style="font-family:Verdana">An:</b> "X3D Graphics public mailing list" <<a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org" style="font-family:Verdana" target="_blank">x3d-public@web3d.org</a>>
<br> <b style="font-family:Verdana">Betreff:</b> [x3d-public] ProtoInstance USE without name
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Looking at why the old Prototypes for HAnim did not work properly for x3dom, I found that the xml examples typically have a ProtoInstance statement with a USE attribute but without the corresponding name attribute defining the actual node type. However, x3dom expects a name attribute with every ProtoInstance statement, even USE ones, to be able to insert the appropriate node.
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The xml spec at
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<div style="font-family:Verdana"> <a href="https://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19776-1/V3.3/Part01/concepts.html#ProtoInstanceAndFieldValueStatement" style="font-family:Verdana" target="_blank">https://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19776-1/V3.3/Part01/concepts.html#ProtoInstanceAndFieldValueStatement</a>
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does not address USE of ProtoInstances but all examples always have a name attribute.
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Also, in my quite extensive testing of Protos, I did not come across other examples of ProtoInstance elements without a name attribute.
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To be fair, the name attribute is not strictly necessary for USE ProtoInstances since the type of the inserted node can be determined from the referenced DEF node. But having the name attribute makes ProtoInstance elements more similar to regular nodes. So I think not requiring the name attribute for USE ProtoInstances should be explicitly allowed in the xml spec., but still be encouraged.
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I do not think the xml spec. would be otherwise affected by V.4 ?
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Best, Andreas
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--
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Andreas Plesch
<br> Waltham, MA 02453
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Andreas Plesch
<br> Waltham, MA 02453
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