<html><head></head><body><div style="font-family: Verdana;font-size: 12.0px;"><div>Dear all,</div>
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<div>The very first draft of the description "Application Layer Protocol over RTP" has been finished and is available at</div>
<div><a href="https://github.com/christoph-v/spark/blob/master/ALP/01-ALP-over-RTP(BCP).pdf">https://github.com/christoph-v/spark/blob/master/ALP/01-ALP-over-RTP(BCP).pdf</a></div>
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<div>Comments are welcome. For comments please open issues at <a href="https://github.com/christoph-v/spark">https://github.com/christoph-v/spark</a></div>
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<div>Happy new year</div>
<div>Christoph</div>
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<div style="margin:0 0 10px 0;"><b>Gesendet:</b> Dienstag, 29. Dezember 2020 um 03:41 Uhr<br/>
<b>Von:</b> "John Carlson" <yottzumm@gmail.com><br/>
<b>An:</b> "Christoph Valentin" <christoph.valentin@gmx.at><br/>
<b>Cc:</b> "Don Brutzman" <brutzman@nps.edu>, "X3D Graphics public mailing list" <x3d-public@web3d.org><br/>
<b>Betreff:</b> Re: Re: [x3d-public] higher level networking and potential for animated semantics.</div>
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<div>I recommend Granovetter’s Diagram for a human-mediated protocol, it involves 3 parties instead of two, and involves authorization.</div>
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<div>John</div>
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<div class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Dec 28, 2020 at 7:00 PM Christoph Valentin <<a href="mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at" onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at'; return false;" target="_blank">christoph.valentin@gmx.at</a>> wrote:</div>
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<div style="font-family: Verdana;">Hi John, Gina Lauren, Don</div>
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<div style="font-family: Verdana;">Please confirm you have received this e-mail. I was encountering connectivity issues with my free-mail provider <a href="http://gmx.de" style="font-family: Verdana;" target="_blank">gmx.de</a> lately.</div>
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<div style="font-family: Verdana;">@John</div>
<div style="font-family: Verdana;">Thanks for your contribution at the S&P-ARK WIKI. I am considering to merge it with the position issue and to move them both together to the digits WIKI (yet to be created :-) ).</div>
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<div style="font-family: Verdana;">@All - regarding the MU protocol story</div>
<div style="font-family: Verdana;"><strong style="font-family: Verdana;">May I officially suggest</strong> to use RTP and SCTP as transport protocols and to define an own "application layer protocol", as we brainstormed together in spring 2019 and I am currently going to describe in more detail?</div>
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<div style="font-family: Verdana;">I am going to be finished with the draft description by next weekend, but be AWARE: this is all phantasy, nothing has been implemented for this idea.</div>
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<div style="font-family: Verdana;">Comments are welcome already now.</div>
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<div style="font-family: Verdana;"><a href="https://github.com/christoph-v/spark/blob/master/ALP/01-ALP-over-RTP(BCP).pdf" style="font-family: Verdana;" target="_blank">https://github.com/christoph-v/spark/blob/master/ALP/01-ALP-over-RTP(BCP).pdf</a></div>
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<div style="font-family: Verdana;">Kind regards,</div>
<div style="font-family: Verdana;">Christoph</div>
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<div style="font-family: Verdana;">P.S.: since my employer is not interested in 3D graphics at all, I can guarantee to be unbiased ;-)</div>
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<div style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 10.0px;font-family: Verdana;"><b style="font-family: Verdana;">Gesendet:</b> Samstag, 26. Dezember 2020 um 13:45 Uhr<br/>
<b style="font-family: Verdana;">Von:</b> "GL" <<a href="mailto:info@3dnetproductions.com" onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:info@3dnetproductions.com'; return false;" style="font-family: Verdana;" target="_blank">info@3dnetproductions.com</a>><br/>
<b style="font-family: Verdana;">An:</b> "'John Carlson'" <<a href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com" onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com'; return false;" style="font-family: Verdana;" target="_blank">yottzumm@gmail.com</a>>, "'Don Brutzman'" <<a href="mailto:brutzman@nps.edu" onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:brutzman@nps.edu'; return false;" style="font-family: Verdana;" target="_blank">brutzman@nps.edu</a>><br/>
<b style="font-family: Verdana;">Cc:</b> "'X3D Graphics public mailing list'" <<a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org" onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org'; return false;" style="font-family: Verdana;" target="_blank">x3d-public@web3d.org</a>><br/>
<b style="font-family: Verdana;">Betreff:</b> Re: [x3d-public] higher level networking and potential for animated semantics.</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="font-family: Verdana;"><span style="font-family: Consolas;color: rgb(31,73,125);">John, Thank you for referencing some of my work. VR business has been a near life time goal of mine. Like you, I have realized many years ago that I couldn't do it alone. I was, however, very fortunate to have a group of X3D developers to share my ambitions. That culminated in the current state of 'Office Towers' which is still, unfortunately, not anywhere near the goals we had originally set out (circa 2008).</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="font-family: Verdana;"><span style="font-family: Consolas;color: rgb(31,73,125);">It is no secret that I have supported open standards for 3D on the web since the very beginning, 3D being a passion I had even before the web became a thing, back in the days of BBSs and the 'Remote Imaging Protocol' language for vector graphics over ASCII. I could also speak of several of our team members' impressive background.</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="font-family: Verdana;"><span style="font-family: Consolas;color: rgb(31,73,125);">But even with such a good team and all the drive we had to really make a difference, it wasn't enough. We needed an even bigger team that would have included more people in accounting, graphics design, marketing, sales, etc. with the ability to devote significant time to the project. In other words, I underestimated the scope of the project while over-estimating the staying power of people working from the goodness of their heart.</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="font-family: Verdana;"><span style="font-family: Consolas;color: rgb(31,73,125);">Perhaps we should've tried to seek funding, but seeing how other seemingly well funded endeavors failed almost consistently, this was never a decision I was prepared to make, and quite possibly the single most important reason why Office Towers remains up to this day.</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="font-family: Verdana;"><span style="font-family: Consolas;color: rgb(31,73,125);">However, we are now in a different time. I believe the ideas you brought forward are good if they can be integrated into sustainable business models and backed by reasonable injections of venture capital. Otherwise, enterprises with such attributes will always have the upper hand in the marketplace and continue to make it difficult for others to achieve a meaningful presence. </span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="font-family: Verdana;"><span style="font-family: Consolas;color: rgb(31,73,125);">One thing I have learned for myself is that 'timing is everything'. Maybe now is the time for open standards deployment on a mass scale. Like many, I too long for standard 3D network protocols, and I like that you seem to be suggesting something in the lines of 'interaction protocols'. </span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="font-family: Verdana;"><span style="font-family: Consolas;color: rgb(31,73,125);">One last note. While HTML5 has its place, I see it more as a stepping stone into lower lever applications. My opinion is that HTML5 can be a great way to help people get their feet wet, but to truly bring forward the power of 3D/VR into business apps, we need to be able to tap directly into modern graphics card APIs. Gina Lauren</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="font-family: Verdana;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;font-family: "Simplified Arabic Fixed" , serif;color: rgb(31,73,125);">* * * Interactive Multimedia - Internet Management * * *</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="font-family: Verdana;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;font-family: "Simplified Arabic Fixed" , serif;color: rgb(31,73,125);"> * 3D Net Productions <a href="http://3dnetproductions.com" style="font-family: "Simplified Arabic Fixed" , serif;" target="_blank">3dnetproductions.com</a> *</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="font-family: Verdana;"><b style="font-family: Verdana;"><span style="font-size: 10.0pt;font-family: Tahoma , sans-serif;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10.0pt;font-family: Tahoma , sans-serif;"> x3d-public [mailto:<a href="mailto:x3d-public-bounces@web3d.org" onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:x3d-public-bounces@web3d.org'; return false;" style="font-family: Tahoma , sans-serif;" target="_blank">x3d-public-bounces@web3d.org</a>] <b style="font-family: Tahoma , sans-serif;">On Behalf Of </b>John Carlson<br/>
<b style="font-family: Tahoma , sans-serif;">Sent:</b> Wednesday, December 23, 2020 9:09 PM<br/>
<b style="font-family: Tahoma , sans-serif;">To:</b> Don Brutzman<br/>
<b style="font-family: Tahoma , sans-serif;">Cc:</b> X3D Graphics public mailing list<br/>
<b style="font-family: Tahoma , sans-serif;">Subject:</b> [x3d-public] higher level networking and potential for animated semantics.</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="font-family: Verdana;">Long semi-rant. Take aways: Let’s animate semantics. Let’s create a “12”-level networking stack (would JINI be appropriate?). Let’s create apps and networks that morph to counteract malware.</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="font-family: Verdana;">I do think that X3D sits at what I call “The application level” of networking, and it has a strong position there. I don’t know any other product with such a strong 3D presence. Second life and apps selling “3D chat” seem to have faded. NVIDIA’s certainly pushing towards 3D transfer near the application level. As we have seen with other applications on the web, these application level transfers should be visible to the developer for debugging and verification.</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="font-family: Verdana;">I can see a merging of remote work and 3D.</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="font-family: Verdana;">There are several types of work, research, design, development, integration, quality assurance, deployment, and maintenance. Something like <a href="http://officetowers.com" style="font-family: Verdana;" target="_blank">officetowers.com</a> might provide insights into how we might integrate 3D into our software work. I am very sorry that I fumbled many times in creating an environment suitable for this. Thank goodness I learned the lesson that I couldn’t do this all by myself.</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="font-family: Verdana;">I think we need to step up from the application level of networking and think about more than client-server programming. We need higher level protocols, perhaps human patterns or protocols for building human networks and systems that can survive COVID-19, 20, 21, ... we can’t, for the sake of the survival of our species, give up space exploration. But perhaps we need to explore more mystical paths, yet also provide a charitable path as well (mixed?).</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="font-family: Verdana;">The HTML5 environment has progressed far enough along I think, to support “3D enterprises” or “3D commerce.” Obviously everyone is trying to see how 3D fits into remote work. At the same time, I think we should consider how virtual worlds affect our belief systems and governments. Has anyone shown a simulation of belief? How important is honesty? Semantics is only the first step. What if we could animate semantics? This would likely be a very big project. Perhaps we could make it a mobile distributed project.</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="font-family: Verdana;">What lessons were there in Open Wonderland?</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="font-family: Verdana;">I think Google’s “generic” approach is appropriate for the public. I do not think we should make all organizations generic lest they fall prey to virus or cyberattack.</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="font-family: Verdana;">Imagine if we still had the stovepipe systems of the 60s, 70s, and 80s. Anyone remember “Cuckoo’s Egg”?</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="font-family: Verdana;">Is anyone selling virtual estate besides Second Life?</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="font-family: Verdana;">Does the Internet need an “off” switch?</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="font-family: Verdana;">Don’t mind me. I live among the corn and beans.</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="font-family: Verdana;">Don’t mind me, someone wrote metamindwriter on my mind today. A new word! I feel like Neale Walsch. I’m not a writer, I’m a mathematician!</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="font-family: Verdana;">I do thing we need a verification process and fingerprinting for cyberattack tools.</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="font-family: Verdana;">I’m thinking we need applications that can morph yet maintain functionality—take a page out of malware playbook.</p>
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<div style="font-family: Verdana;">_______________________________________________ x3d-public mailing list <a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org" onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org'; return false;" style="font-family: Verdana;" target="_blank">x3d-public@web3d.org</a> <a href="http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org" style="font-family: Verdana;" target="_blank">http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org</a></div>
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