<html><head></head><body><div style="font-family: Verdana;font-size: 12.0px;"><div>DIS is IEEE. IEEE is not open minded. Just does not fit to the spirit of the Internet.</div>
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<div>We should work on the successor of DIS. This is our mission.</div>
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<div style="margin:0 0 10px 0;"><b>Gesendet:</b> Mittwoch, 06. Januar 2021 um 01:07 Uhr<br/>
<b>Von:</b> "John Carlson" <yottzumm@gmail.com><br/>
<b>An:</b> "X3D Graphics public mailing list" <x3d-public@web3d.org><br/>
<b>Betreff:</b> Re: [x3d-public] X3D and VRML for multiuser worlds</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I think the last time we brought this up, there was some issue about fields shouldn’t be flexible in the network protocol, because it would be too difficult to write virus or intrusion rules for scanning the packets. I think we’re back to the DIS standard. Please state your objections to DIS, perhaps we can work on the DIS standard?</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">John</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Sent from <a href="https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986" target="_blank">Mail</a> for Windows 10</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="border: none;padding: 0.0in;"><b>From: </b><a href="mailto:info@3dnetproductions.com" onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:info@3dnetproductions.com'; return false;" target="_blank">GL</a><br/>
<b>Sent: </b>Tuesday, January 5, 2021 11:53 AM<br/>
<b>To: </b><a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org" onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org'; return false;" target="_blank">X3D Graphics public mailing list</a><br/>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [x3d-public] X3D and VRML for multiuser worlds</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: Consolas;color: rgb(31,73,125);">Now that's more like it. Thanks for the link John.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: Consolas;color: rgb(31,73,125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: Consolas;color: rgb(31,73,125);">I do not know why people are discussing the use of different network protocols for client-server connections, when HTTP on TCP works just fine for our purpose. This is not where the bottleneck is, the kernel is. Plus, HTTP is already supported with most operating systems, that in addition to the fact that we are here to discuss X3D, not network protocols. The same can largely apply to client-client connections.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: Consolas;color: rgb(31,73,125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: Consolas;color: rgb(31,73,125);">When I express a desire for standardizing a NetworkSensor node, it has in fact little to do with the underlying network protocol. What I wish to standardize is the node itself. So let's see what we have so far as per </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: Consolas;color: rgb(31,73,125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: Consolas;color: rgb(31,73,125);"><a href="https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/Basic/Networking/NetworkSensorConnectionNodes.html" target="_blank">https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/Basic/Networking/NetworkSensorConnectionNodes.html</a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: Consolas;color: rgb(31,73,125);"> </span></p>
<h2><span style="color: black;">9.4.4 Connection</span></h2>
<pre><span style="color: black;">Connection: X3DNetworkSensorNode {</span></pre>
<pre><span style="color: black;"> SFBool [in,out] enabled TRUE</span></pre>
<pre><span style="color: black;"> SFNode [in,out] metadata NULL [X3DMetadataObject]</span></pre>
<pre><span style="color: black;"> SFBool [out] isActive FALSE</span></pre>
<pre><span style="color: black;"> MFString [in,out] url ["x3dp://localhost:80/"]</span></pre>
<pre><span style="color: black;"> SFInt32 [in] protocol 0 [0,65535]</span></pre>
<pre><span style="color: black;"> SFTime [in,out] timeOut 0</span></pre>
<pre><span style="color: black;"> SFBool [in] secure TRUE</span></pre>
<pre style="margin-bottom: 12.0pt;"><span style="color: black;">}</span></pre>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 18.0pt;font-family: "Times New Roman" , serif;color: black;">9.4.5 NetworkSensor</span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.0pt;font-family: "Courier New";color: black;">NetworkSensor : X3DNetworkSensorNode {</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.0pt;font-family: "Courier New";color: black;"> SFBool [in,out] enabled TRUE</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.0pt;font-family: "Courier New";color: black;"> SFNode [in,out] metadata NULL [X3DMetadataObject]</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.0pt;font-family: "Courier New";color: black;"> SFBool [out] isActive</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.0pt;font-family: "Courier New";color: black;"> SFNode [in out] connection NULL [Connection node only]</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.0pt;font-family: "Courier New";color: black;"> SFString [in] httpRequest ""</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.0pt;font-family: "Courier New";color: black;"> MFString [out] httpResponse NULL</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.0pt;font-family: "Courier New";color: black;"> SFString [] channelId ""</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.0pt;font-family: "Courier New";color: black;"> # And any number of:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.0pt;font-family: "Courier New";color: black;"> fieldType [in] fieldName</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.0pt;font-family: "Courier New";color: black;"> fieldType [in,out] fieldName</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.0pt;font-family: "Courier New";color: black;"> fieldType [out] fieldName</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.0pt;font-family: "Courier New";color: black;"> fieldType [] fieldName</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.0pt;font-family: "Courier New";color: black;">}</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: Consolas;color: rgb(31,73,125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: Consolas;color: rgb(31,73,125);">As you can see, this is rather incomplete, more like just the skeleton of a node. Can we not build from here where it matters as far as X3D standards? And forget about lower protocol layers for a moment, especially that ideally X3D should be able to run on top of different internet/network protocols?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: Consolas;color: rgb(31,73,125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: Consolas;color: rgb(31,73,125);">If you really want to understand how MU works, this is where it begins, and defining the field names would be a very good start.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: Consolas;color: rgb(31,73,125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: Consolas;color: rgb(31,73,125);">The above page states that "</span><span style="font-size: 13.5pt;color: black;">a proper implementation requires native X3D-player support and a full Prototype-based implementation is not possible."</span><span style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: Consolas;color: rgb(31,73,125);">, which is only partially correct, since X3Daemon is such an implementation, at least when it comes to section 9.4.5. X3Daemon relies on the X3D player for 9.4.4 because it is readily available, but there are no reason why anyone couldn't make their own implementation. The section 9.4.4 is also probably where the line should be drawn as far as X3D's jurisdiction concerning network protocols.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: Consolas;color: rgb(31,73,125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: Consolas;color: rgb(31,73,125);">There are currently two main implementations of the above that comes to mind: BS Collaborate and X3Daemon (do I forget something??).</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: Consolas;color: rgb(31,73,125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: Consolas;color: rgb(31,73,125);">We should probably need to reconcile, add or change the field names and the types in order to finalize this standard.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: Consolas;color: rgb(31,73,125);">I do not see much more that we need. After being stuck here for over a decade, I am still not sure why. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: Consolas;color: rgb(31,73,125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: Consolas;color: rgb(31,73,125);">The above is required if we want to standardize connections across both clients and servers, regardless of protocols. That is what will allow world objects and avatars to work as intended for using the same type definitions, field names and parameters. This would facilitate connections between worlds, and potentially let avatars travel around them. An avatar made for one world would work in a different one, a world made for one server would work with a different server, clients could talk to any others (providing listeners and response capabilities are built-in), and so on… GL </span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10.0pt;font-family: Tahoma , sans-serif;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10.0pt;font-family: Tahoma , sans-serif;"> x3d-public [mailto:x3d-public-bounces@web3d.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>John Carlson<br/>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, January 5, 2021 12:38 AM<br/>
<b>To:</b> Christoph Valentin; Cecile Muller<br/>
<b>Cc:</b> X3D Graphics public mailing list<br/>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [x3d-public] X3D and VRML for multiuser worlds</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I discovered this recently. It may assist you in your efforts for highly scalable systems:</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="http://highscalability.com/blog/2013/5/13/the-secret-to-10-million-concurrent-connections-the-kernel-i.html" target="_blank">http://highscalability.com/blog/2013/5/13/the-secret-to-10-million-concurrent-connections-the-kernel-i.html</a></p>
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In other words, you’re not limited to 16-bits worth of TCP ports on one server.</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">My guess is they use multiple IP addresses (IPv6?) on a single server, but I’m not sure.</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">If anyone does this, let us know how it goes.</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">John</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Sent from <a href="https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986" target="_blank">Mail</a> for Windows 10</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From: </b><a href="mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at" onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at'; return false;" target="_blank">Christoph Valentin</a><br/>
<b>Sent: </b>Monday, January 4, 2021 10:55 PM<br/>
<b>To: </b><a href="mailto:contact@wildpeaks.fr" onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:contact@wildpeaks.fr'; return false;" target="_blank">Cecile Muller</a><br/>
<b>Cc: </b><a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org" onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org'; return false;" target="_blank">X3D Graphics public mailing list</a><br/>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [x3d-public] X3D and VRML for multiuser worlds</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Hi,</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Isn't MQTT the protocol of the IoT?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">It needs a broker, doesn't it?</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Just being curious.</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">KR,</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Christoph</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Gesendet: Dienstag, 05. Januar 2021 um 05:25 Uhr</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Von: "Cecile Muller" <contact@wildpeaks.fr></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">An: "X3D Graphics public mailing list" <x3d-public@web3d.org></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Betreff: Re: [x3d-public] X3D and VRML for multiuser worlds</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Good morning (and happy new year !),</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">If you want to build something multi-users, nowadays I'd recommend MQTT: it's not specific to 3D,</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">so you'd still need to create the application on top of it, but you could reach both applications and webapps</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">with it (it can even run on low-end devices), and it's a proper documented standard.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Mosquitto on a small linux server is enough to get started,</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">or you could use something like PubNub to not worry about scaling the backend.</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">See you,</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Cecile_______________________________________________ x3d-public mailing list x3d-public@web3d.org <a href="http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org" target="_blank">http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org</a></p>
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