<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
</head>
<body>
<p>I am now prepared to have a "client" of your UDP DIS server at
hoststar.at. I need things like address and port, per X3D PDU
nodes.<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>If there is ssh information for reaching your server network, let
me know. This is my preferred method. I do not believe I need
special permission except for perhaps a new user account.<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>I've never really used a VPN, and will probably need
instructions. My experience with VPN varies "not very useful" and
"OMG, my friends are going to steal my files."<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>John<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 1/10/21 11:28 PM, Christoph Valentin
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:trinity-2d86f45f-d35e-449a-982d-256db2cfe7f5-1610342882369@msvc-mesg-gmx120">
<meta name="viewport" content="width=device-width">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div class="mail_android_message" style="line-height: 1; padding:
0.5em">If everything works fine (and if I've understood
correctly), then you can do tests with multicast IP transport,
although you are geographically separated.<br>
<br>
That's what I would like to try basically<br>
<br>
-- <br>
Diese Nachricht wurde von meinem Android Mobiltelefon mit GMX
Mail gesendet.</div>
<div class="mail_android_quote" style="line-height: 1; padding:
0.3em">Am 11.01.21, 05:11 schrieb John Carlson
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com"><yottzumm@gmail.com></a>:
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0.8ex 0pt 0pt
0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204);
padding-left: 1ex;">
<div dir="ltr"> My friends have asked me to set up a VPN on my
machine in the past. I don't really see the value of a VPN.
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div class="gmail_attr" dir="ltr"> On Sun, Jan 10, 2021 at
7:03 PM Christoph Valentin <<a
href="mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at"
moz-do-not-send="true">christoph.valentin@gmx.at</a>>
wrote: <br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div style="font-family:Verdana;font-size:12px">
<div> What I am going to try is to setup a VPN with
OpenVPN and my vServer at <a
href="http://hoststar.at" moz-do-not-send="true">hoststar.at</a>,
so we can do a test session with DIS (hopefully). </div>
<div>
<div>
<div style="margin:10px 5px 5px 10px;padding:10px
0px 10px 10px;border-left:2px solid
rgb(195,217,229)">
<div style="margin:0px 0px 10px"> <b>Gesendet:</b> Sonntag,
10. Januar 2021 um 23:13 Uhr <br>
<b>Von:</b> "John Carlson" <<a
href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">yottzumm@gmail.com</a>>
<br>
<b>An:</b> "Christoph Valentin" <<a
href="mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at"
moz-do-not-send="true">christoph.valentin@gmx.at</a>>
<br>
<b>Cc:</b> "X3D Graphics public mailing list"
<<a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">x3d-public@web3d.org</a>>
<br>
<b>Betreff:</b> Re: [x3d-public] X3D and VRML
for multiuser worlds </div>
<div>
<div> What I was going to do is try to get DIS
from GitHub and DIS from X_ITE to talk to
each other. </div>
<div> </div>
<div> John </div>
<div>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div class="gmail_attr"> On Sun, Jan 10,
2021 at 1:08 PM Christoph Valentin <<a
href="mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at" moz-do-not-send="true">christoph.valentin@gmx.at</a>>
wrote: </div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div style="line-height:1;padding:0.5em">
ok <br>
<br>
let me repeat your proposal: <br>
<br>
>>>>> Of the published
work available in that regard, we have
BS Collaborate, DIS, and the Draft X3D
Specification for NetworkSensor. I
think the first step would be to take
these, see what they have in common,
and go from there for deeper analyses.
<br>
<br>
I think everybody agrees. <br>
<br>
So what would be the very first step
(before the first step)? Assign
responsibilities? Create a Wiki? Ask
for official decision? Just do it?
Who? What? When? Create an official
backlog? Use the S&P-ARK? <br>
<br>
kind regards <br>
Christoph <br>
<br>
-- <br>
Diese Nachricht wurde von meinem
Android Mobiltelefon mit GMX Mail
gesendet. </div>
<div>
<div
style="line-height:1;padding:0.3em">
<div> Am 09.01.21, 07:40 schrieb
Christoph Valentin <<a
href="mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at"
moz-do-not-send="true">christoph.valentin@gmx.at</a>>:
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div
style="line-height:1;padding:0.3em">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0.8ex 0pt 0pt
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div
style="font-family:Verdana;font-size:12px">
<div
style="font-family:Verdana;font-size:12px">
<div
style="font-family:Verdana">
Not much, </div>
<div
style="font-family:Verdana">
</div>
<div
style="font-family:Verdana">
1) It's another use case,
which has proven it's
usefulness during SrrTrains
v0.01: </div>
<div
style="font-family:Verdana">
- Customized Client
Side Calculations </div>
<div
style="font-family:Verdana">
( sent to
x3d-public in January 2014:
<a
href="https://areasharpa.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/smuos_03_sema_2018_04_27.pdf"
style="font-family:Verdana" moz-do-not-send="true">https://areasharpa.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/smuos_03_sema_2018_04_27.pdf</a>
) </div>
<div
style="font-family:Verdana">
</div>
<div
style="font-family:Verdana">
2) And an idea (which is not
yet settled). </div>
<div
style="font-family:Verdana">
- idea is to have two
levels of identification: </div>
<div
style="font-family:Verdana">
identify the sensor
by "streamName" +
"networkSensorId" </div>
<div
style="font-family:Verdana">
(BS
Collaborate: only
"streamName" </div>
<div
style="font-family:Verdana">
Octaga: only
"networkSensorId") </div>
<div
style="font-family:Verdana">
</div>
<div
style="font-family:Verdana">
1) the
stream = the model = the
real life entity
e.g. "car" </div>
<div
style="font-family:Verdana">
2) the
sensor nodes themselves
e.g. "steering", "motor",
"doors" </div>
<div
style="font-family:Verdana">
<div
style="font-family:Verdana">
<div style="margin:10px
5px 5px
10px;padding:10px 0px
10px
10px;border-left:2px
solid
rgb(195,217,229);font-family:Verdana">
<div style="margin:0px
0px
10px;font-family:Verdana">
<b
style="font-family:Verdana">Gesendet:</b> Samstag,
09. Januar 2021 um
03:59 Uhr <br>
<b
style="font-family:Verdana">Von:</b> "GL"
<<a
href="mailto:info@3dnetproductions.com"
style="font-family:Verdana" moz-do-not-send="true">info@3dnetproductions.com</a>>
<br>
<b
style="font-family:Verdana">An:</b> "'X3D
Graphics public
mailing list'" <<a
href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org" style="font-family:Verdana"
moz-do-not-send="true">x3d-public@web3d.org</a>>
<br>
<b
style="font-family:Verdana">Betreff:</b> Re:
[x3d-public] X3D and
VRML for multiuser
worlds </div>
<div
style="font-family:Verdana">
<div
style="font-family:Verdana">
<div
style="font-family:Verdana">
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="font-family:Verdana"><span
style="font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(31,73,125)">I
am not sure
what results
you are
referring to.
Did I miss
something? </span></p>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="font-family:Verdana"><span
style="font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p>
<div
style="border-style:none
none none
solid;border-left-width:1.5pt;padding:0in
0in 0in
4pt;font-family:Verdana;border-left-color:blue">
<div
style="font-family:Verdana">
<div
style="border-style:solid
none
none;border-top-width:1pt;padding:3pt
0in
0in;font-family:Verdana;border-top-color:rgb(181,196,223)">
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="font-family:Verdana"><b style="font-family:Verdana"><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif"> x3d-public
[mailto:<a
href="mailto:x3d-public-bounces@web3d.org"
style="font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif" moz-do-not-send="true">x3d-public-bounces@web3d.org</a>]
<b
style="font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">On
Behalf Of </b>Christoph
Valentin<br>
<b
style="font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">Sent:</b>
Friday,
January 8,
2021 9:21 PM<br>
<b
style="font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">To:</b>
'X3D Graphics
public mailing
list'<br>
<b
style="font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">Subject:</b>
Re:
[x3d-public]
Re: X3D and
VRML for
multiuser
worlds</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="font-family:Verdana"> </p>
<div
style="font-family:Verdana">
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="font-family:Verdana">so basically you want to ignore my results?<br>
<br>
--<br>
Diese
Nachricht
wurde von
meinem Android
Mobiltelefon
mit GMX Mail
gesendet.</p>
</div>
<div
style="font-family:Verdana">
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="font-family:Verdana">Am 09.01.21, 01:07 schrieb GL <<a
href="mailto:info@3dnetproductions.com"
style="font-family:Verdana" moz-do-not-send="true">info@3dnetproductions.com</a>>:</p>
<blockquote
style="border-style:none
none none
solid;border-left-width:1pt;padding:0in
0in 0in
6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:4.8pt;margin-right:0in;font-family:Verdana;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)">
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="font-family:Verdana">Christoph,<br>
<br>
Thank you for
the
clarifications
and your
general
dedication. I
believe that
little
misunderstandings
should be
addressed
before they
snowball into
bigger
misconceptions.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
> If we
specify a
general
Network Sensor
API, then
content can
run<br>
> with any
X3D Player
that supports
the Network
Sensor API.<br>
<br>
If you read
again my last
paragraph, I
try to make a
distinction
between a
multiuser
client and a
X3D player. In
other words,
the player is
not
necessarily
the client. It
appears to be
a common
misconception
that the X3D
player must
also be the MU
client, while
in truth it
really doesn't
have to. For
the reasons
previously
stated, I tend
to prefer that
the player
does not in
fact act as
the client.<br>
<br>
<br>
> However,
if I use the
X3Daemon
Client API,
then I MUST
use the
X3Daemon<br>
> Server,
because the
protocol is
proprietary.<br>
<br>
<br>
That is
precisely why
I am here. I
do NOT want
the
application
protocol to be
proprietary.
And the fact
that we still
don't have a
standard keeps
me from moving
forward,
because any
development
efforts I make
may someday
have to be
rewritten once
we do have a
standard. IOW,
I am not a big
fan of
reworking
systems. I'd
rather use
open standards
as early in
the process as
possible to
facilitate
interoperability
later.<br>
<br>
<br>
> If the
protocol was
specified,
then I could
use ANY<br>
> server
with the
X3Daemon
Client.<br>
<br>
<br>
Ideally,
systems could
interoperate,
though there
are other
factors to
consider. For
example
avatars must
login to
authenticate
their identity
and assets,
consisting of
information
that may or
may not be
available to a
third party
server. But
yes, you get
the general
idea.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
> It is not
sufficient to
specify the<br>
> fields
and the
behaviour of
the
NetworkSensor
node. ...,<br>
> but I had
the feeling
that you want
to<br>
> omit the
specification
of the
protocol.<br>
<br>
<br>
Read again, I
was referring
specifically
to network
protocols.
Still, at this
early stage, I
feel it may be
a little
premature to
get too
involved with
an application
protocol, that
until we get a
better grasp
of what the
requirements
will be. For
this reason, I
am of the
opinion that
fields and
events should
be specified
first. Just so
that we have
something to
build upon.<br>
<br>
Of the
published work
available in
that regard,
we have BS
Collaborate,
DIS, and the
Draft X3D
Specification
for
NetworkSensor.
I think the
first step
would be to
take these,
see what they
have in
common, and go
from there for
deeper
analyses.<br>
<br>
Once we have
that settled,
IMO, only then
should we turn
to discuss an
application
layer protocol
and its
ramifications.
GL<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
>
-----Original
Message-----<br>
> From:
x3d-public
[mailto:<a
href="mailto:x3d-public-bounces@web3d.org"
style="font-family:Verdana" moz-do-not-send="true">x3d-public-bounces@web3d.org</a>]
On Behalf Of<br>
> Christoph
Valentin<br>
> Sent:
Friday,
January 8,
2021 5:09 PM<br>
> To: X3D
Graphics
public mailing
list<br>
> Subject:
Re:
[x3d-public]
X3D and VRML
for multiuser
worlds<br>
><br>
> Dear Gina
Lauren<br>
><br>
> Please
find some feed
back *inline*.<br>
><br>
>
Generally,
please do not
judge too
hard, I'm not
a native
speaker and
still<br>
> some of
my wordings do
not fit to the
real
intention.<br>
><br>
> Kind
regards,<br>
> Christoph<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
> >You
want to lock
in your users.
That's not the
spirit of open
source.<br>
><br>
> For once
I was
beginning to
open up about
the inner
workings of a
multiuser<br>
> system,
but
surprisingly,
you apparently
don't want to
hear about it.
It is<br>
> difficult
to talk about
open standards
for a NSN if
we can't refer
to<br>
> actual
implementations.
It's not like
there are a
lot of them
around..<br>
> [CV]: I
should not
have written
this. However,
I was a little
bit<br>
>
impatient,
because I have
been preaching
for years and
years that the<br>
> protocol
itself must be
specified. It
is not
sufficient to
specify the<br>
> fields
and the
behaviour of
the
NetworkSensor
node. Maybe I
did not read<br>
> your
words
sufficiently
thoroughly,
but I had the
feeling that
you want to<br>
> omit the
specification
of the
protocol.<br>
><br>
> Also, who
said anything
about open
source being a
requirement? I
was<br>
> actually
volunteering
closed source
information
for the
benefit of an
open<br>
> standard.
If you can't
see that I was
actually
"giving"
something to
the<br>
>
community..
then perhaps I
am wasting my
time???<br>
> [CV]:
Here I used
"open source"
and meant
"open
protocols",
sorry, my<br>
> mistake.
And, yes, I
also "gave" a
lot. Using too
much time for
my hobbies,<br>
> was one
major reason,
why my wife
left us in
2015
(afterwards
the SrrTrains<br>
> v0.01
project fell
into
hibernation
mode due to
lack of
resources).<br>
><br>
> Finally,
if you would
like to
discuss an
application
layer
protocol,
maybe<br>
> look into
work that has
been done in
the past
referred to as
vrtp and x3dp.<br>
> Not much,
but a starting
point. So far
I have only
heard vague
comments<br>
> about
SCTP, UDP,
etc. (see
below)<br>
> [CV]: I
am sure that
many people
have
contributed
many parts of
the puzzle.<br>
> Now we
need somebody,
who fits all
together
(that's not
me, is it?)<br>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
> >
[CV]: I never
suggested to
specifiy the
transport
protocol
(http, rtp,<br>
> >
sctp, tcp,
msrp, sip,
xmpp,
........).<br>
><br>
> hhhmmm..
I'm confused,
what is this
about???<br>
> [CV]:
Let's assume,
we specify an
"Application
Layer
Protocol"
(let's call<br>
> it ALP in
the sense of a
"working
title").
Probably the
ALP will
consist of<br>
> the
definition of
a few PDUs
(e.g. in XML,
JSON, YAML or
similar
syntax).<br>
> Now we
have to
define, how
the PDUs have
to be
transmitted
over the<br>
> network.
Will they be
sent as
payload in
http messages
(in the body)?
Will<br>
> they be
sent as
payload in SIP
messages (in
the body)?
Will they be
sent<br>
> directly
over tcp
connections?<br>
> To get
historically:
at the
beginning of
the IETF they
had a great<br>
> movement.
You could get
T-Shirts with
the meme "IP
over
everything".
IP<br>
> should
connect any
network with
any network,
building the
Inter-network.
So<br>
> they had
to write one
RFC for each
L2 protocol in
order to
specify, how
IP<br>
> has to be
transported
over any L2
link/network.<br>
> I am
dreaming of an
"ALP over
everything"
movement.<br>
><br>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
> >[CV]:
SCTP and UDP
are members of
the TCP/IP
protocol
family. UDP is
as<br>
> >old
as TCP, just
simpler. SCTP
is younger. It
tries to merge
advantages<br>
> >of
both TCP and
UDP and was
originally
invented to
transport SS7
protocols<br>
>
>(SIGTRAN).
SCTP supports
64k streams
per
association,
what perfectly
fits<br>
> >to
our needs,
imho<br>
><br>
> Why are
you trying to
lecture me
about network
protocols? And
what is it<br>
> exactly
that you are
saying or not
saying, I find
rather
perplexing and<br>
> fail to
see the
relevancy.
Let's keep
going...<br>
> [CV]: I
thought you
wrote "SCTP is
not TCP/IP". I
want to stress
that SCTP<br>
> actually
IS TCP/IP<br>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
> >[CV]:
Actually I
suggested to
specifiy ONE
AND ONLY ONE
application
layer<br>
> protocol,<br>
><br>
> No-one is
questioning
this as far as
I know. Isn't
that precisely
what we<br>
> are
trying to do?<br>
> Why are
you augmenting
this in my
comments?<br>
><br>
> [CV]:
(see above)
Maybe I did
not read your
words
sufficiently
thoroughly,<br>
> but I had
the feeling
that you want
to omit the
specification
of the<br>
> protocol.<br>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
> >[CV]:
The API (i.e
Network
Sensor) must
be specified
to run ONE
content<br>
> with ANY
X3D Player.<br>
><br>
> Let's be
careful here.
The X3D player
does not
necessarily
need to have<br>
> agency
over the
application
protocol. For
example the
X3Daemon
client<br>
> (sorry to
bring it up)
is entirely
separate from
the player
other than for<br>
>
interpreting
ECMAScripts
and rendering
the results to
screen. IOW,
the<br>
> X3Daemon
client can
theoretically
run in any X3D
player,
regardless of<br>
> internal
multiuser
coding, as
long as
ECMAScript
(JavaScript)
is supported.<br>
> This
makes it very
easy for
authors to
script avatar
and object
behaviors,<br>
> since it
provides
direct access
to X3D nodes.
It is also a
reason why we<br>
> need to
define a
NetworkSensor
node as part
of the X3D
standard.<br>
> [CV]:
That's exactly
what I am
saying: you
specified your
X3Daemon
client<br>
> API, so a
content that
uses that API,
can
theoretically
run with ANY
X3D<br>
> Player
(that the
X3Daemon
client
supports). If
we specify a
general
Network<br>
> Sensor
API, then
content can
run with any
X3D Player
that supports
the<br>
> Network
Sensor API.<br>
> However,
if I use the
X3Daemon
Client API,
then I MUST
use the
X3Daemon<br>
> Server,
because the
protocol is
proprietary.
If the
protocol was
specified,<br>
> then I
could use ANY
server with
the X3Daemon
Client. It's
similar with
BS<br>
> Contact
and BS
Collaborate.<br>
> Most
customers are
very sensitive
about getting
locked in. No
matter if<br>
> open
source or
closed source.
We (my
employer) made
this
experience
with<br>
> railway
operators,
too.<br>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
><br>
><br>
> GL<br>
><br>
>
________________________________________________________<br>
> * * *
Interactive
Multimedia -
Internet
Management * *
*<br>
> * *
Virtual
Reality --
Application
Programming *
*<br>
> * 3D Net
Productions <a
href="http://3dnetproductions.com" style="font-family:Verdana"
moz-do-not-send="true">3dnetproductions.com</a>
*<br>
><br>
><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
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