<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
</head>
<body>
<p>We can meet at 11am CST.</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>I hope to have something in Xj3D by that time. We can plan
possible enhancements to X_ITE (so that X_ITE nodes can become DIS
senders and receivers). I haven't solved how to do SO_REUSEADDR or
SO_REUSEPORT in JavaScript yet, and especially on a browser,
although browsers use QUIC these days. It could be that HTTP or
HTTPS over QUIC would be sufficient to carry ALP. I guess a lot
of sites are doing video over HTTP (HTTPS?) these days. <br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>John<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 1/25/21 9:37 PM, Christoph Valentin
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:trinity-ef207297-72e1-479f-8d70-f7e684317fbb-1611632230334@3c-app-gmx-bap72">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div style="font-family: Verdana;font-size: 12.0px;">
<div>Good Morning!</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Congrats.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Just to be sure: Do you still want to do test session with
1 sender and 2 receivers?</div>
<div> </div>
<div>I could manage to be available next Saturday 18:00 - 24:00
Viennese time.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>I entered the appointment to the VPN calendar, but <em>I'm
not sure, if the calendar is smart enough to display the
time correctly for your time zone. Could you check this? Thx</em></div>
<div> </div>
<div><em>Christoph</em></div>
<div>
<div>
<div name="quote" style="margin:10px 5px 5px 10px; padding:
10px 0 10px 10px; border-left:2px solid #C3D9E5;
word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space;
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space;">
<div style="margin:0 0 10px 0;"><b>Gesendet:</b> Montag,
25. Januar 2021 um 18:08 Uhr<br>
<b>Von:</b> "John Carlson" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com"><yottzumm@gmail.com></a><br>
<b>An:</b> "Christoph Valentin"
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at"><christoph.valentin@gmx.at></a>, "Don Brutzman"
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:brutzman@nps.edu"><brutzman@nps.edu></a>, <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:holger.seelig@yahoo.de">holger.seelig@yahoo.de</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> "X3D Graphics public mailing list"
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org"><x3d-public@web3d.org></a><br>
<b>Betreff:</b> Re: Fw: [x3d-public] Tiny VPN for Use by
Web3D Community (max. 10 connections at a time)</div>
<div name="quoted-content">
<p>I remember back in 1985-1986 when I was first doing
networking, I ran into this reusing the receiver port
and address, but I had forgotten!</p>
<p>Hurray!</p>
<p>So that may be something to set up in the X3D
browser!</p>
<p> </p>
<p>John</p>
<p> </p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 1/25/21 7:01 PM, John
Carlson wrote:</div>
<blockquote>
<p>Just when I give up, a google search works!</p>
<p>udpSocket.setsockopt(socket.SOL_SOCKET,
socket.SO_REUSEADDR, 1)</p>
<p>Please make this chagne in the example receiver in
open-dis-python (I'll file an issue).</p>
<p>This allows multiple receivers on the same machine,
so we don't really need a VPN to test, but I think I
will continue testing.</p>
coderextreme@coderextreme-Kubuntu20:~/open-dis-python$
jobs<br>
[1]- Running python3
examples/dis_receiver.py &<br>
[2]+ Running python3
examples/dis_receiver.py &<br>
coderextreme@coderextreme-Kubuntu20:~/open-dis-python$
!py<br>
python3 examples/dis_sender.py<br>
Sent EntityStatePdu. 144 bytes<br>
Received EntityStatePdu. Id: 42, Location:
36.59999999462713 -121.9 1.00080256909132
<p>Received EntityStatePdu. Id: 42, Location:
36.59999999462713 -121.9 1.00080256909132</p>
<p> </p>
<p>VPN should be freed up shortly.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>John</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 1/25/21 6:50 PM, John
Carlson wrote:</div>
<blockquote>
<p>I did not have luck running 2 receivers on the
same machine. Perhaps I am missing something?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>John</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 1/25/21 6:32 PM,
John Carlson wrote:</div>
<blockquote>
<p>Voila!</p>
<p>$ netstat -gn|grep tun0<br>
tun0 1 224.0.0.1<br>
tun0 1 ff02::1<br>
tun0 1 ff01::1</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Please schedule a time and add me to the
participants list so we can test the multicast
(2 receivers, one sender).</p>
<p>I will test to see if I can run 2 receivers on
one host,with 224.0.0.1</p>
<p>John</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 1/25/21 6:27 PM,
John Carlson wrote:</div>
<blockquote>
<p>netstat -g looks useful for determining
multicast addresses.</p>
<p>John</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 1/25/21 6:11 PM,
John Carlson wrote:</div>
<blockquote>
<p>I figured out how to translate into
English!</p>
<p> </p>
<p>John</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 1/25/21 6:08
PM, John Carlson wrote:</div>
<blockquote>
<p>Ah, no VPN required!</p>
<p> </p>
<p>John</p>
<p> </p>
<p>On 1/25/21 5:33 PM, John Carlson wrote:</p>
<blockquote>
<p>Okay, so I have to schedule on a
calender when to use VPN, but first I
have to get on VPN</p>
<p>I got to the calendar. Is there some
way to translate to English?</p>
<p>This is the point where you steal my
files? It always seems to happen with
VPN.</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 1/25/21
5:08 PM, Christoph Valentin wrote:</div>
<blockquote>
<div style="font-family:
Verdana;font-size: 12.0px;">
<div>Hi John,</div>
<div> </div>
<div>You can access the VPN's calendar
directly at the experimental
owncloud web interface at my
vServer:</div>
<div> </div>
<div>(owncloud is a framework mainly
for file sharing, but also has
calendar and contacts via WebDav)</div>
<div> </div>
<div>URL <a
href="http://lc-soc-lc.at/owncloud"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://lc-soc-lc.at/owncloud</a></div>
<div>
<div>user name vpncal</div>
<div>password X3D4</div>
<div> </div>
<div>All the best</div>
<div>Christoph</div>
<div>
<div style="margin: 10.0px 5.0px
5.0px 10.0px;padding: 10.0px 0
10.0px 10.0px;border-left: 2.0px
solid rgb(195,217,229);">
<div style="margin: 0 0 10.0px
0;"><b>Gesendet:</b> Sonntag,
24. Januar 2021 um 15:35 Uhr<br>
<b>Von:</b> "Christoph
Valentin" <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at';
return false;"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"><christoph.valentin@gmx.at></a><br>
<b>An:</b> "John Carlson" <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com';
return false;"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"><yottzumm@gmail.com></a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> "X3D Graphics
public mailing list" <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org';
return false;"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"><x3d-public@web3d.org></a><br>
<b>Betreff:</b> [x3d-public]
Fw: Tiny VPN for Use by Web3D
Community (max. 10 connections
at a time)</div>
<div>
<div style="font-family:
Verdana;font-size: 12.0px;">
<div>John,</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Please <span
style="font-size:
14.0px;"><strong>expect
some maintenance work
(short interruptions)
next week Saturday
(30th January).</strong></span></div>
<div> </div>
<div>I have now <span
style="font-size:
14.0px;"><strong>defined
an online calendar for
the VPN</strong></span>,
to avoid flooding the
mailing list.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>The calendar can be <span
style="font-size:
14.0px;"><strong>easily
integrated with the
calendar on your
Android phone</strong></span>
(see the green entry
below!!!).</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Probably it is possible
to integrate it with any
smartphone (it uses the
WebDav standard), but I
haven't tried.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Installation
instructions:</div>
<div>1) Install DAVx5 on
your Android smartphone
(available at F-Droid)</div>
<div>2) Create new DAVx5
account <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:vpncal@lc-soc-lc.at"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:vpncal@lc-soc-lc.at';
return false;"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">"vpncal@lc-soc-lc.at"</a></div>
<div> - URL: <a
href="https://lc-soc-lc.at/owncloud/remote.php/dav/calendars/vpncal/personal/"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://lc-soc-lc.at/owncloud/remote.php/dav/calendars/vpncal/personal/</a></div>
<div> - user: vpncal</div>
<div> - pw: X3D4</div>
<div>3) Enable and trigger
the synchronization of
WebCal</div>
<div>4) Go to "Calendar"
App: make sure the
"personal" calendar is
activated for display</div>
<div> </div>
<div>The installation
instructions will be
available at <a
href="https://lc-soc-lc.at/experimental"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://lc-soc-lc.at/experimental</a>
soon.</div>
<div><img
src="cid:part8.686B71F8.5018A188@gmail.com"
class="" width="275"
height="488">
<div>
<div> </div>
<div>If you have set the
synchronization
correctly, then it
should be possible for
you to make calendar
entries, too (e.g.
test sessions, where
you need more than 2
connections, or some
specific multicast
address).</div>
<div> </div>
<div>KR</div>
<div>Christoph</div>
<div> </div>
<div style="margin:
10.0px 5.0px 5.0px
10.0px;padding: 10.0px
0 10.0px
10.0px;border-left:
2.0px solid
rgb(195,217,229);">
<div style="margin: 0
0 10.0px 0;"><b>Gesendet:</b> Samstag,
23. Januar 2021 um
14:11 Uhr<br>
<b>Von:</b> "Christoph
Valentin" <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at';
return false;"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"><christoph.valentin@gmx.at></a><br>
<b>An:</b> "X3D
Graphics public
mailing list" <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org';
return false;"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"><x3d-public@web3d.org></a><br>
<b>Betreff:</b> [x3d-public]
Tiny VPN for Use by
Web3D Community
(max. 10 connections
at a time)</div>
<div>
<div
style="font-family:
Verdana;font-size:
12.0px;">
<div>Hi John, Gina
Lauren, Jordi,
and all
interested in
multiuser</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Being very
curious to get
to know, whether
the "server-less
mode" could
really work, I
was thinking
about what could
I contribute?</div>
<div> </div>
<div>I have got
this tiny
vServer at
hoststar.at
(hosted at some
cloud in
Germany), where
I could
implement a VPN
for "server-less
experiments".</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Voilá</div>
<div> </div>
<div>So, if you
have a Windows
10 client, then
what you can do:</div>
<div> </div>
<div>1) Install
OpenVPN Connect
software
(community
edition) - <a
href="https://openvpn.net/community-downloads/"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://openvpn.net/community-downloads/</a><br>
<br>
2) Unzip the
config.zip from
attachment into
C:\Program
Files\OpenVPN\config</div>
<div> </div>
<div>3) Start
OpenVPN Client</div>
<div> </div>
<div>4) Connect</div>
<div> </div>
<div>5) Now your
client is a
multihomed host
with an
additional
network
interface at
172.27.224.0/19</div>
<div> </div>
<div>6) The
network
172.27.224.0/19
is an island.
Only people, who
receive this
e-mail, can
connect.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>What is
missing:</div>
<div> </div>
<div>a) a proof
that multicast
addresses work
on the VPN</div>
<div>b) an online
calendar to
coordinate the
multicast
sessions at the
VPN-> I will
provide this on
request.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>KR,</div>
<div>Christoph</div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div><br>
<br>
<br>
Gesendet: Samstag, 23. Januar 2021 um 01:34 Uhr<br>
Von: "Christoph
Valentin" <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at';
return false;"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><christoph.valentin@gmx.at></a><br>
An: "John
Carlson" <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com';
return false;"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><yottzumm@gmail.com></a><br>
Cc: "X3D
Graphics public
mailing list" <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org';
return false;"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><x3d-public@web3d.org></a><br>
Betreff: Re:
[x3d-public] X3D
and VRML for
multiuser worlds<br>
Hi John,<br>
<br>
Currently having
two issues:<br>
<br>
1) can test the
VPN only with
two Windows
clients ->
you have to
create your own
experience with
the Linux client<br>
2) still have to
make the VPN
permanent ->
now the VPN has
to be restarted
manually after
server restart.<br>
<br>
Pls. expect
final answer by
Saturday
evening, CET.<br>
<br>
My plan:<br>
<br>
I will publish
(at a hidden
place):<br>
<br>
a) example
configuration
from Windows
OpenVPN Connect
client<br>
b) ca-yeti.crt
self-signed root
certificate,
which you have
to trust<br>
c)
x3d-public.key
private key for
the Web3D
community (not
really private)<br>
d)
x3d-public.crt
certificate for
the Web3D
community
(signed by yeti
-> my server
will let you in)<br>
e) ta.key
additional
symmetric key
(must be
identical on
client and
server)<br>
<br>
Physical
restriction:
max. 10
connections at
the same time,
dynamic IP
addresses from a
private IPv4
range
(172.27.224.0/19).<br>
<br>
The VPN will be
an island - the
server will not
route that
subnet, unless
from one client
to the others
(hopefully
including
multicast
packets - not
yet tested). <br>
<br>
KR<br>
Christoph<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Gesendet: Freitag, 22. Januar 2021 um 07:38 Uhr<br>
Von: "John
Carlson" <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com';
return false;"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><yottzumm@gmail.com></a><br>
An: "Christoph
Valentin" <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at';
return false;"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><christoph.valentin@gmx.at></a><br>
Cc: "X3D
Graphics public
mailing list" <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org';
return false;"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><x3d-public@web3d.org></a><br>
Betreff: Re:
[x3d-public] X3D
and VRML for
multiuser worlds<br>
I am now
prepared to have
a "client" of
your UDP DIS
server at
hoststar.at. I
need things like
address and
port, per X3D
PDU nodes.<br>
<br>
If there is ssh
information for
reaching your
server network,
let me know.
This is my
preferred
method. I do
not believe I
need special
permission
except for
perhaps a new
user account.<br>
<br>
I've never
really used a
VPN, and will
probably need
instructions.
My experience
with VPN varies
"not very
useful" and
"OMG, my friends
are going to
steal my files."<br>
<br>
John<br>
<br>
On 1/10/21 11:28
PM, Christoph
Valentin wrote:<br>
If everything
works fine (and
if I've
understood
correctly), then
you can do tests
with multicast
IP transport,
although you are
geographically
separated.<br>
<br>
That's what I
would like to
try basically<br>
<br>
--<br>
Diese Nachricht
wurde von meinem
Android
Mobiltelefon mit
GMX Mail
gesendet.<br>
Am 11.01.21,
05:11 schrieb
John Carlson <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com';
return false;"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><yottzumm@gmail.com></a>[<a
class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com';
return false;"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com</a>]:<br>
My friends have
asked me to set
up a VPN on my
machine in the
past. I don't
really see the
value of a VPN. <br>
<br>
On Sun, Jan 10,
2021 at 7:03 PM
Christoph
Valentin <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at[mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at]"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at[mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at]';
return false;"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><christoph.valentin@gmx.at[mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at]></a>
wrote:<br>
<br>
What I am going
to try is to
setup a VPN with
OpenVPN and my
vServer at
hoststar.at[<a
href="http://hoststar.at"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">http://hoststar.at</a>], so we
can do a test
session with DIS
(hopefully).<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Gesendet: Sonntag, 10. Januar 2021 um 23:13 Uhr<br>
Von: "John
Carlson" <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com[mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com]"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com[mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com]';
return false;"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><yottzumm@gmail.com[mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com]></a><br>
An: "Christoph
Valentin" <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at[mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at]"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at[mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at]';
return false;"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><christoph.valentin@gmx.at[mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at]></a><br>
Cc: "X3D
Graphics public
mailing list" <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org[mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org]"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org[mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org]';
return false;"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><x3d-public@web3d.org[mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org]></a><br>
Betreff: Re:
[x3d-public] X3D
and VRML for
multiuser worlds<br>
<br>
What I was going
to do is try to
get DIS from
GitHub and DIS
from X_ITE to
talk to each
other.<br>
<br>
John<br>
<br>
On Sun, Jan 10,
2021 at 1:08 PM
Christoph
Valentin <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at[mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at]"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at[mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at]';
return false;"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><christoph.valentin@gmx.at[mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at]></a>
wrote:<br>
ok<br>
<br>
let me repeat
your proposal:<br>
<br>
>>>>> Of the published work available in that regard, we
have BS
Collaborate,
DIS, and the
Draft X3D
Specification
for
NetworkSensor. I
think the first
step would be to
take these, see
what they have
in common, and
go from there
for deeper
analyses.<br>
<br>
I think
everybody
agrees.<br>
<br>
So what would be
the very first
step (before the
first step)?
Assign
responsibilities?
Create a Wiki?
Ask for official
decision? Just
do it? Who?
What? When?
Create an
official
backlog? Use the
S&P-ARK?<br>
<br>
kind regards<br>
Christoph<br>
<br>
--<br>
Diese Nachricht
wurde von meinem
Android
Mobiltelefon mit
GMX Mail
gesendet.<br>
<br>
Am 09.01.21,
07:40 schrieb
Christoph
Valentin <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at[mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at]"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at[mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at]';
return false;"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><christoph.valentin@gmx.at[mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at]></a>:<br>
<br>
Not much,<br>
<br>
1) It's another
use case, which
has proven it's
usefulness
during SrrTrains
v0.01:<br>
-
Customized
Client Side
Calculations<br>
( sent
to x3d-public in
January 2014: <a
href="https://areasharpa.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/smuos_03_sema_2018_04_27.pdf"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://areasharpa.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/smuos_03_sema_2018_04_27.pdf</a>[<a
href="https://areasharpa.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/smuos_03_sema_2018_04_27.pdf"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://areasharpa.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/smuos_03_sema_2018_04_27.pdf</a>][<a
href="https://areasharpa.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/smuos_03_sema_2018_04_27.pdf"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://areasharpa.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/smuos_03_sema_2018_04_27.pdf</a>[<a
href="https://areasharpa.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/smuos_03_sema_2018_04_27.pdf"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://areasharpa.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/smuos_03_sema_2018_04_27.pdf</a>]]
)<br>
<br>
2) And an idea
(which is not
yet settled).<br>
- idea is
to have two
levels of
identification:<br>
identify
the sensor by
"streamName" +
"networkSensorId"<br>
(BS Collaborate:
only
"streamName"<br>
Octaga: only
"networkSensorId")<br>
<br>
1) the stream =
the model = the
real life
entity
e.g. "car"<br>
2) the sensor
nodes themselves
e.g. "steering", "motor", "doors"<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Gesendet: Samstag, 09. Januar 2021 um 03:59 Uhr<br>
Von: "GL" <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:info@3dnetproductions.com[mailto:info@3dnetproductions.com]"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:info@3dnetproductions.com[mailto:info@3dnetproductions.com]';
return false;"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><info@3dnetproductions.com[mailto:info@3dnetproductions.com]></a><br>
An: "'X3D
Graphics public
mailing list'" <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org[mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org]"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org[mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org]';
return false;"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><x3d-public@web3d.org[mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org]></a><br>
Betreff: Re:
[x3d-public] X3D
and VRML for
multiuser worlds<br>
<br>
I am not sure
what results you
are referring
to. Did I miss
something?<br>
<br>
<br>
From: x3d-public
[<a
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="mailto:x3d-public-bounces@web3d.org"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:x3d-public-bounces@web3d.org';
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return false;"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:x3d-public-bounces@web3d.org</a>]]
On Behalf Of
Christoph
Valentin<br>
Sent: Friday,
January 8, 2021
9:21 PM<br>
To: 'X3D
Graphics public
mailing list'<br>
Subject: Re:
[x3d-public] Re:
X3D and VRML for
multiuser worlds<br>
<br>
<br>
so basically you
want to ignore
my results?<br>
<br>
--<br>
Diese Nachricht
wurde von meinem
Android
Mobiltelefon mit
GMX Mail
gesendet.<br>
<br>
Am 09.01.21,
01:07 schrieb GL
<a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:info@3dnetproductions.com[mailto:info@3dnetproductions.com]"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:info@3dnetproductions.com[mailto:info@3dnetproductions.com]';
return false;"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><info@3dnetproductions.com[mailto:info@3dnetproductions.com]></a>:<br>
Christoph,<br>
<br>
Thank you for
the
clarifications
and your general
dedication. I
believe that
little
misunderstandings
should be
addressed before
they snowball
into bigger
misconceptions.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
> If we
specify a
general Network
Sensor API, then
content can run<br>
> with any
X3D Player that
supports the
Network Sensor
API.<br>
<br>
If you read
again my last
paragraph, I try
to make a
distinction
between a
multiuser client
and a X3D
player. In other
words, the
player is not
necessarily the
client. It
appears to be a
common
misconception
that the X3D
player must also
be the MU
client, while in
truth it really
doesn't have to.
For the reasons
previously
stated, I tend
to prefer that
the player does
not in fact act
as the client.<br>
<br>
<br>
> However, if
I use the
X3Daemon Client
API, then I MUST
use the X3Daemon<br>
> Server,
because the
protocol is
proprietary.<br>
<br>
<br>
That is
precisely why I
am here. I do
NOT want the
application
protocol to be
proprietary. And
the fact that we
still don't have
a standard keeps
me from moving
forward, because
any development
efforts I make
may someday have
to be rewritten
once we do have
a standard. IOW,
I am not a big
fan of reworking
systems. I'd
rather use open
standards as
early in the
process as
possible to
facilitate
interoperability
later.<br>
<br>
<br>
> If the
protocol was
specified, then
I could use ANY<br>
> server with
the X3Daemon
Client.<br>
<br>
<br>
Ideally, systems
could
interoperate,
though there are
other factors to
consider. For
example avatars
must login to
authenticate
their identity
and assets,
consisting of
information that
may or may not
be available to
a third party
server. But yes,
you get the
general idea.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
> It is not
sufficient to
specify the<br>
> fields and
the behaviour of
the
NetworkSensor
node. ...,<br>
> but I had
the feeling that
you want to<br>
> omit the
specification of
the protocol.<br>
<br>
<br>
Read again, I
was referring
specifically to
network
protocols.
Still, at this
early stage, I
feel it may be a
little premature
to get too
involved with an
application
protocol, that
until we get a
better grasp of
what the
requirements
will be. For
this reason, I
am of the
opinion that
fields and
events should be
specified first.
Just so that we
have something
to build upon.<br>
<br>
Of the published
work available
in that regard,
we have BS
Collaborate,
DIS, and the
Draft X3D
Specification
for
NetworkSensor. I
think the first
step would be to
take these, see
what they have
in common, and
go from there
for deeper
analyses.<br>
<br>
Once we have
that settled,
IMO, only then
should we turn
to discuss an
application
layer protocol
and its
ramifications.
GL<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
>
-----Original
Message-----<br>
> From:
x3d-public [<a
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="mailto:x3d-public-bounces@web3d.org"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:x3d-public-bounces@web3d.org';
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class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:x3d-public-bounces@web3d.org"
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return false;"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:x3d-public-bounces@web3d.org</a>]]
On Behalf Of<br>
> Christoph
Valentin<br>
> Sent:
Friday, January
8, 2021 5:09 PM<br>
> To: X3D
Graphics public
mailing list<br>
> Subject:
Re: [x3d-public]
X3D and VRML for
multiuser worlds<br>
><br>
> Dear Gina
Lauren<br>
><br>
> Please find
some feed back
*inline*.<br>
><br>
> Generally,
please do not
judge too hard,
I'm not a native
speaker and
still<br>
> some of my
wordings do not
fit to the real
intention.<br>
><br>
> Kind
regards,<br>
> Christoph<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
> >You
want to lock in
your users.
That's not the
spirit of open
source.<br>
><br>
> For once I
was beginning to
open up about
the inner
workings of a
multiuser<br>
> system, but
surprisingly,
you apparently
don't want to
hear about it.
It is<br>
> difficult
to talk about
open standards
for a NSN if we
can't refer to<br>
> actual
implementations.
It's not like
there are a lot
of them around..<br>
> [CV]: I
should not have
written this.
However, I was a
little bit<br>
> impatient,
because I have
been preaching
for years and
years that the<br>
> protocol
itself must be
specified. It is
not sufficient
to specify the<br>
> fields and
the behaviour of
the
NetworkSensor
node. Maybe I
did not read<br>
> your words
sufficiently
thoroughly, but
I had the
feeling that you
want to<br>
> omit the
specification of
the protocol.<br>
><br>
> Also, who
said anything
about open
source being a
requirement? I
was<br>
> actually
volunteering
closed source
information for
the benefit of
an open<br>
> standard.
If you can't see
that I was
actually
"giving"
something to the<br>
> community..
then perhaps I
am wasting my
time???<br>
> [CV]: Here
I used "open
source" and
meant "open
protocols",
sorry, my<br>
> mistake.
And, yes, I also
"gave" a lot.
Using too much
time for my
hobbies,<br>
> was one
major reason,
why my wife left
us in 2015
(afterwards the
SrrTrains<br>
> v0.01
project fell
into hibernation
mode due to lack
of resources).<br>
><br>
> Finally, if
you would like
to discuss an
application
layer protocol,
maybe<br>
> look into
work that has
been done in the
past referred to
as vrtp and
x3dp.<br>
> Not much,
but a starting
point. So far I
have only heard
vague comments<br>
> about SCTP,
UDP, etc. (see
below)<br>
> [CV]: I am
sure that many
people have
contributed many
parts of the
puzzle.<br>
> Now we need
somebody, who
fits all
together (that's
not me, is it?)<br>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
> > [CV]:
I never
suggested to
specifiy the
transport
protocol (http,
rtp,<br>
> > sctp,
tcp, msrp, sip,
xmpp, ........).<br>
><br>
> hhhmmm..
I'm confused,
what is this
about???<br>
> [CV]: Let's
assume, we
specify an
"Application
Layer Protocol"
(let's call<br>
> it ALP in
the sense of a
"working
title").
Probably the ALP
will consist of<br>
> the
definition of a
few PDUs (e.g.
in XML, JSON,
YAML or similar
syntax).<br>
> Now we have
to define, how
the PDUs have to
be transmitted
over the<br>
> network.
Will they be
sent as payload
in http messages
(in the body)?
Will<br>
> they be
sent as payload
in SIP messages
(in the body)?
Will they be
sent<br>
> directly
over tcp
connections?<br>
> To get
historically: at
the beginning of
the IETF they
had a great<br>
> movement.
You could get
T-Shirts with
the meme "IP
over
everything". IP<br>
> should
connect any
network with any
network,
building the
Inter-network.
So<br>
> they had to
write one RFC
for each L2
protocol in
order to
specify, how IP<br>
> has to be
transported over
any L2
link/network.<br>
> I am
dreaming of an
"ALP over
everything"
movement.<br>
><br>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
> >[CV]:
SCTP and UDP are
members of the
TCP/IP protocol
family. UDP is
as<br>
> >old as
TCP, just
simpler. SCTP is
younger. It
tries to merge
advantages<br>
> >of both
TCP and UDP and
was originally
invented to
transport SS7
protocols<br>
>
>(SIGTRAN).
SCTP supports
64k streams per
association,
what perfectly
fits<br>
> >to our
needs, imho<br>
><br>
> Why are you
trying to
lecture me about
network
protocols? And
what is it<br>
> exactly
that you are
saying or not
saying, I find
rather
perplexing and<br>
> fail to see
the relevancy.
Let's keep
going...<br>
> [CV]: I
thought you
wrote "SCTP is
not TCP/IP". I
want to stress
that SCTP<br>
> actually IS
TCP/IP<br>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
> >[CV]:
Actually I
suggested to
specifiy ONE AND
ONLY ONE
application
layer<br>
> protocol,<br>
><br>
> No-one is
questioning this
as far as I
know. Isn't that
precisely what
we<br>
> are trying
to do?<br>
> Why are you
augmenting this
in my comments?<br>
><br>
> [CV]: (see
above) Maybe I
did not read
your words
sufficiently
thoroughly,<br>
> but I had
the feeling that
you want to omit
the
specification of
the<br>
> protocol.<br>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
> >[CV]:
The API (i.e
Network Sensor)
must be
specified to run
ONE content<br>
> with ANY
X3D Player.<br>
><br>
> Let's be
careful here.
The X3D player
does not
necessarily need
to have<br>
> agency over
the application
protocol. For
example the
X3Daemon client<br>
> (sorry to
bring it up) is
entirely
separate from
the player other
than for<br>
>
interpreting
ECMAScripts and
rendering the
results to
screen. IOW, the<br>
> X3Daemon
client can
theoretically
run in any X3D
player,
regardless of<br>
> internal
multiuser
coding, as long
as ECMAScript
(JavaScript) is
supported.<br>
> This makes
it very easy for
authors to
script avatar
and object
behaviors,<br>
> since it
provides direct
access to X3D
nodes. It is
also a reason
why we<br>
> need to
define a
NetworkSensor
node as part of
the X3D
standard.<br>
> [CV]:
That's exactly
what I am
saying: you
specified your
X3Daemon client<br>
> API, so a
content that
uses that API,
can
theoretically
run with ANY X3D<br>
> Player
(that the
X3Daemon client
supports). If we
specify a
general Network<br>
> Sensor API,
then content can
run with any X3D
Player that
supports the<br>
> Network
Sensor API.<br>
> However, if
I use the
X3Daemon Client
API, then I MUST
use the X3Daemon<br>
> Server,
because the
protocol is
proprietary. If
the protocol was
specified,<br>
> then I
could use ANY
server with the
X3Daemon Client.
It's similar
with BS<br>
> Contact and
BS Collaborate.<br>
> Most
customers are
very sensitive
about getting
locked in. No
matter if<br>
> open source
or closed
source. We (my
employer) made
this experience
with<br>
> railway
operators, too.<br>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
><br>
><br>
> GL<br>
><br>
>
________________________________________________________<br>
> * * *
Interactive
Multimedia -
Internet
Management * * *<br>
> * * Virtual
Reality --
Application
Programming * *<br>
> * 3D Net
Productions
3dnetproductions.com[<a
href="http://3dnetproductions.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://3dnetproductions.com</a>[<a
href="http://3dnetproductions.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://3dnetproductions.com</a>]]
*<br>
><br>
><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
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