<html>
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<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
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<body>
<p>I remember back in 1985-1986 when I was first doing networking, I
ran into this reusing the receiver port and address, but I had
forgotten!</p>
<p>Hurray!</p>
<p>So that may be something to set up in the X3D browser!<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>John<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 1/25/21 7:01 PM, John Carlson wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:fef35947-90d6-2259-05eb-13035ab0eaa9@gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<p>Just when I give up, a google search works!</p>
<p>udpSocket.setsockopt(socket.SOL_SOCKET, socket.SO_REUSEADDR, 1)</p>
<p>Please make this chagne in the example receiver in
open-dis-python (I'll file an issue).</p>
<p>This allows multiple receivers on the same machine, so we don't
really need a VPN to test, but I think I will continue testing.</p>
coderextreme@coderextreme-Kubuntu20:~/open-dis-python$ jobs<br>
[1]- Running python3 examples/dis_receiver.py
&<br>
[2]+ Running python3 examples/dis_receiver.py
&<br>
coderextreme@coderextreme-Kubuntu20:~/open-dis-python$ !py<br>
python3 examples/dis_sender.py <br>
Sent EntityStatePdu. 144 bytes<br>
Received EntityStatePdu. Id: 42, Location: 36.59999999462713
-121.9 1.00080256909132<br>
<p>Received EntityStatePdu. Id: 42, Location: 36.59999999462713
-121.9 1.00080256909132</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>VPN should be freed up shortly.</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>John<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 1/25/21 6:50 PM, John Carlson
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:2f2e91df-7767-b9a5-e416-b19e2b4421c3@gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=UTF-8">
<p>I did not have luck running 2 receivers on the same machine.
Perhaps I am missing something?</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>John<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 1/25/21 6:32 PM, John Carlson
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:986c6e46-6da2-fdb7-a9cb-a5d7ecb962fd@gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=UTF-8">
<p>Voila!</p>
<p>$ netstat -gn|grep tun0<br>
tun0 1 224.0.0.1<br>
tun0 1 ff02::1<br>
tun0 1 ff01::1</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Please schedule a time and add me to the participants list
so we can test the multicast (2 receivers, one sender).</p>
<p>I will test to see if I can run 2 receivers on one
host,with 224.0.0.1</p>
<p>John<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 1/25/21 6:27 PM, John Carlson
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:f466387d-e251-d930-e2d4-c6591da3662c@gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=UTF-8">
<p>netstat -g looks useful for determining multicast
addresses.</p>
<p>John</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 1/25/21 6:11 PM, John
Carlson wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:745257ef-2767-4095-39aa-244f2d5e3494@gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=UTF-8">
<p>I figured out how to translate into English!</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>John<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 1/25/21 6:08 PM, John
Carlson wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:8f2d8846-4970-2559-6353-5a3552976761@gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=UTF-8">
<p>Ah, no VPN required!</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>John</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>On 1/25/21 5:33 PM, John Carlson wrote:</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:3a409cf5-5203-a5d2-f362-296c0589bda3@gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=UTF-8">
<p>Okay, so I have to schedule on a calender when to
use VPN, but first I have to get on VPN</p>
<p>I got to the calendar. Is there some way to
translate to English?</p>
<p>This is the point where you steal my files? It
always seems to happen with VPN.<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 1/25/21 5:08 PM,
Christoph Valentin wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:trinity-10900d88-0f4d-4369-8ef2-973affe0e99d-1611616085330@3c-app-gmx-bap08">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html;
charset=UTF-8">
<div style="font-family: Verdana;font-size: 12.0px;">
<div>Hi John,</div>
<div> </div>
<div>You can access the VPN's calendar directly at
the experimental owncloud web interface at my
vServer:</div>
<div> </div>
<div>(owncloud is a framework mainly for file
sharing, but also has calendar and contacts via
WebDav)</div>
<div> </div>
<div>URL <a href="http://lc-soc-lc.at/owncloud"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://lc-soc-lc.at/owncloud</a></div>
<div>
<div>user name vpncal</div>
<div>password X3D4</div>
<div> </div>
<div>All the best</div>
<div>Christoph</div>
<div>
<div name="quote" style="margin:10px 5px 5px
10px; padding: 10px 0 10px 10px;
border-left:2px solid #C3D9E5; word-wrap:
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space;
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space;">
<div style="margin:0 0 10px 0;"><b>Gesendet:</b> Sonntag,
24. Januar 2021 um 15:35 Uhr<br>
<b>Von:</b> "Christoph Valentin" <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at"
moz-do-not-send="true"><christoph.valentin@gmx.at></a><br>
<b>An:</b> "John Carlson" <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"><yottzumm@gmail.com></a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> "X3D Graphics public mailing
list" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org"
moz-do-not-send="true"><x3d-public@web3d.org></a><br>
<b>Betreff:</b> [x3d-public] Fw: Tiny VPN
for Use by Web3D Community (max. 10
connections at a time)</div>
<div name="quoted-content">
<div style="font-family:
Verdana;font-size: 12.0px;">
<div>John,</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Please <span style="font-size:
14.0px;"><strong>expect some
maintenance work (short
interruptions) next week Saturday
(30th January).</strong></span></div>
<div> </div>
<div>I have now <span style="font-size:
14.0px;"><strong>defined an online
calendar for the VPN</strong></span>,
to avoid flooding the mailing list.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>The calendar can be <span
style="font-size: 14.0px;"><strong>easily
integrated with the calendar on
your Android phone</strong></span>
(see the green entry below!!!).</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Probably it is possible to
integrate it with any smartphone (it
uses the WebDav standard), but I
haven't tried.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Installation instructions:</div>
<div>1) Install DAVx5 on your Android
smartphone (available at F-Droid)</div>
<div>2) Create new DAVx5 account <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:vpncal@lc-soc-lc.at"
moz-do-not-send="true">"vpncal@lc-soc-lc.at"</a></div>
<div> - URL: <a
href="https://lc-soc-lc.at/owncloud/remote.php/dav/calendars/vpncal/personal/"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://lc-soc-lc.at/owncloud/remote.php/dav/calendars/vpncal/personal/</a></div>
<div> - user: vpncal</div>
<div> - pw: X3D4</div>
<div>3) Enable and trigger the
synchronization of WebCal</div>
<div>4) Go to "Calendar" App: make sure
the "personal" calendar is activated
for display</div>
<div> </div>
<div>The installation instructions will
be available at <a
href="https://lc-soc-lc.at/experimental"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://lc-soc-lc.at/experimental</a>
soon.</div>
<div><img
src="cid:part8.65C27AE3.7AE0B238@gmail.com"
class="" width="275" height="488">
<div>
<div> </div>
<div>If you have set the
synchronization correctly, then it
should be possible for you to make
calendar entries, too (e.g. test
sessions, where you need more than
2 connections, or some specific
multicast address).</div>
<div> </div>
<div>KR</div>
<div>Christoph</div>
<div> </div>
<div style="margin: 10.0px 5.0px
5.0px 10.0px;padding: 10.0px 0
10.0px 10.0px;border-left: 2.0px
solid rgb(195,217,229);">
<div style="margin: 0 0 10.0px 0;"><b>Gesendet:</b> Samstag,
23. Januar 2021 um 14:11 Uhr<br>
<b>Von:</b> "Christoph Valentin"
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at" moz-do-not-send="true"><christoph.valentin@gmx.at></a><br>
<b>An:</b> "X3D Graphics public
mailing list" <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org" moz-do-not-send="true"><x3d-public@web3d.org></a><br>
<b>Betreff:</b> [x3d-public]
Tiny VPN for Use by Web3D
Community (max. 10 connections
at a time)</div>
<div>
<div style="font-family:
Verdana;font-size: 12.0px;">
<div>Hi John, Gina Lauren,
Jordi, and all interested in
multiuser</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Being very curious to get
to know, whether the
"server-less mode" could
really work, I was thinking
about what could I
contribute?</div>
<div> </div>
<div>I have got this tiny
vServer at hoststar.at
(hosted at some cloud in
Germany), where I could
implement a VPN for
"server-less experiments".</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Voilá</div>
<div> </div>
<div>So, if you have a Windows
10 client, then what you can
do:</div>
<div> </div>
<div>1) Install OpenVPN
Connect software (community
edition) - <a
href="https://openvpn.net/community-downloads/"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://openvpn.net/community-downloads/</a><br>
<br>
2) Unzip the config.zip from
attachment into C:\Program
Files\OpenVPN\config</div>
<div> </div>
<div>3) Start OpenVPN Client</div>
<div> </div>
<div>4) Connect</div>
<div> </div>
<div>5) Now your client is a
multihomed host with an
additional network interface
at 172.27.224.0/19</div>
<div> </div>
<div>6) The network
172.27.224.0/19 is an
island. Only people, who
receive this e-mail, can
connect.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>What is missing:</div>
<div> </div>
<div>a) a proof that multicast
addresses work on the VPN</div>
<div>b) an online calendar to
coordinate the multicast
sessions at the VPN-> I
will provide this on
request.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>KR,</div>
<div>Christoph</div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div><br>
<br>
<br>
Gesendet: Samstag, 23.
Januar 2021 um 01:34 Uhr<br>
Von: "Christoph Valentin" <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at"
moz-do-not-send="true"><christoph.valentin@gmx.at></a><br>
An: "John Carlson" <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com" moz-do-not-send="true"><yottzumm@gmail.com></a><br>
Cc: "X3D Graphics public
mailing list" <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org" moz-do-not-send="true"><x3d-public@web3d.org></a><br>
Betreff: Re: [x3d-public]
X3D and VRML for multiuser
worlds<br>
Hi John,<br>
<br>
Currently having two issues:<br>
<br>
1) can test the VPN only
with two Windows clients
-> you have to create
your own experience with the
Linux client<br>
2) still have to make the
VPN permanent -> now the
VPN has to be restarted
manually after server
restart.<br>
<br>
Pls. expect final answer by
Saturday evening, CET.<br>
<br>
My plan:<br>
<br>
I will publish (at a hidden
place):<br>
<br>
a) example configuration
from Windows OpenVPN Connect
client<br>
b) ca-yeti.crt self-signed
root certificate, which you
have to trust<br>
c) x3d-public.key private
key for the Web3D community
(not really private)<br>
d) x3d-public.crt
certificate for the Web3D
community (signed by yeti
-> my server will let you
in)<br>
e) ta.key additional
symmetric key (must be
identical on client and
server)<br>
<br>
Physical restriction: max.
10 connections at the same
time, dynamic IP addresses
from a private IPv4 range
(172.27.224.0/19).<br>
<br>
The VPN will be an island -
the server will not route
that subnet, unless from one
client to the others
(hopefully including
multicast packets - not yet
tested). <br>
<br>
KR<br>
Christoph<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Gesendet: Freitag, 22.
Januar 2021 um 07:38 Uhr<br>
Von: "John Carlson" <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com" moz-do-not-send="true"><yottzumm@gmail.com></a><br>
An: "Christoph Valentin" <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at"
moz-do-not-send="true"><christoph.valentin@gmx.at></a><br>
Cc: "X3D Graphics public
mailing list" <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org" moz-do-not-send="true"><x3d-public@web3d.org></a><br>
Betreff: Re: [x3d-public]
X3D and VRML for multiuser
worlds<br>
I am now prepared to have a
"client" of your UDP DIS
server at hoststar.at. I
need things like address and
port, per X3D PDU nodes.<br>
<br>
If there is ssh information
for reaching your server
network, let me know. This
is my preferred method. I
do not believe I need
special permission except
for perhaps a new user
account.<br>
<br>
I've never really used a
VPN, and will probably need
instructions. My experience
with VPN varies "not very
useful" and "OMG, my friends
are going to steal my
files."<br>
<br>
John<br>
<br>
On 1/10/21 11:28 PM,
Christoph Valentin wrote:<br>
If everything works fine
(and if I've understood
correctly), then you can do
tests with multicast IP
transport, although you are
geographically separated.<br>
<br>
That's what I would like to
try basically<br>
<br>
--<br>
Diese Nachricht wurde von
meinem Android Mobiltelefon
mit GMX Mail gesendet.<br>
Am 11.01.21, 05:11 schrieb
John Carlson <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com" moz-do-not-send="true"><yottzumm@gmail.com></a>[<a
class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com</a>]:<br>
My friends have asked me to
set up a VPN on my machine
in the past. I don't really
see the value of a VPN. <br>
<br>
On Sun, Jan 10, 2021 at 7:03
PM Christoph Valentin <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at[mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at]"
moz-do-not-send="true"><christoph.valentin@gmx.at[mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at]></a>
wrote:<br>
<br>
What I am going to try is to
setup a VPN with OpenVPN and
my vServer at hoststar.at[<a
href="http://hoststar.at"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://hoststar.at</a>],
so we can do a test session
with DIS (hopefully).<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Gesendet: Sonntag, 10.
Januar 2021 um 23:13 Uhr<br>
Von: "John Carlson" <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com[mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com]"
moz-do-not-send="true"><yottzumm@gmail.com[mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com]></a><br>
An: "Christoph Valentin" <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at[mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at]"
moz-do-not-send="true"><christoph.valentin@gmx.at[mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at]></a><br>
Cc: "X3D Graphics public
mailing list" <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org[mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org]"
moz-do-not-send="true"><x3d-public@web3d.org[mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org]></a><br>
Betreff: Re: [x3d-public]
X3D and VRML for multiuser
worlds<br>
<br>
What I was going to do is
try to get DIS from GitHub
and DIS from X_ITE to talk
to each other.<br>
<br>
John<br>
<br>
On Sun, Jan 10, 2021 at 1:08
PM Christoph Valentin <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at[mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at]"
moz-do-not-send="true"><christoph.valentin@gmx.at[mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at]></a>
wrote:<br>
ok<br>
<br>
let me repeat your proposal:<br>
<br>
>>>>> Of the
published work available in
that regard, we have BS
Collaborate, DIS, and the
Draft X3D Specification for
NetworkSensor. I think the
first step would be to take
these, see what they have in
common, and go from there
for deeper analyses.<br>
<br>
I think everybody agrees.<br>
<br>
So what would be the very
first step (before the first
step)? Assign
responsibilities? Create a
Wiki? Ask for official
decision? Just do it? Who?
What? When? Create an
official backlog? Use the
S&P-ARK?<br>
<br>
kind regards<br>
Christoph<br>
<br>
--<br>
Diese Nachricht wurde von
meinem Android Mobiltelefon
mit GMX Mail gesendet.<br>
<br>
Am 09.01.21, 07:40 schrieb
Christoph Valentin <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at[mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at]"
moz-do-not-send="true"><christoph.valentin@gmx.at[mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at]></a>:<br>
<br>
Not much,<br>
<br>
1) It's another use case,
which has proven it's
usefulness during SrrTrains
v0.01:<br>
- Customized Client
Side Calculations<br>
( sent to
x3d-public in January 2014:
<a
href="https://areasharpa.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/smuos_03_sema_2018_04_27.pdf"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://areasharpa.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/smuos_03_sema_2018_04_27.pdf</a>[<a
href="https://areasharpa.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/smuos_03_sema_2018_04_27.pdf"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://areasharpa.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/smuos_03_sema_2018_04_27.pdf</a>][<a
href="https://areasharpa.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/smuos_03_sema_2018_04_27.pdf"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://areasharpa.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/smuos_03_sema_2018_04_27.pdf</a>[<a
href="https://areasharpa.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/smuos_03_sema_2018_04_27.pdf"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://areasharpa.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/smuos_03_sema_2018_04_27.pdf</a>]]
)<br>
<br>
2) And an idea (which is not
yet settled).<br>
- idea is to have two
levels of identification:<br>
identify the sensor
by "streamName" +
"networkSensorId"<br>
(BS
Collaborate: only
"streamName"<br>
Octaga: only
"networkSensorId")<br>
<br>
1) the
stream = the model = the
real life entity
e.g. "car"<br>
2) the
sensor nodes themselves
e.g. "steering", "motor",
"doors"<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Gesendet: Samstag, 09.
Januar 2021 um 03:59 Uhr<br>
Von: "GL" <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:info@3dnetproductions.com[mailto:info@3dnetproductions.com]"
moz-do-not-send="true"><info@3dnetproductions.com[mailto:info@3dnetproductions.com]></a><br>
An: "'X3D Graphics public
mailing list'" <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org[mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org]"
moz-do-not-send="true"><x3d-public@web3d.org[mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org]></a><br>
Betreff: Re: [x3d-public]
X3D and VRML for multiuser
worlds<br>
<br>
I am not sure what results
you are referring to. Did I
miss something?<br>
<br>
<br>
From: x3d-public [<a
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="mailto:x3d-public-bounces@web3d.org" moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:x3d-public-bounces@web3d.org</a>[<a
class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:x3d-public-bounces@web3d.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:x3d-public-bounces@web3d.org</a>]]
On Behalf Of Christoph
Valentin<br>
Sent: Friday, January 8,
2021 9:21 PM<br>
To: 'X3D Graphics public
mailing list'<br>
Subject: Re: [x3d-public]
Re: X3D and VRML for
multiuser worlds<br>
<br>
<br>
so basically you want to
ignore my results?<br>
<br>
--<br>
Diese Nachricht wurde von
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Am 09.01.21, 01:07 schrieb
GL <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:info@3dnetproductions.com[mailto:info@3dnetproductions.com]"
moz-do-not-send="true"><info@3dnetproductions.com[mailto:info@3dnetproductions.com]></a>:<br>
Christoph,<br>
<br>
Thank you for the
clarifications and your
general dedication. I
believe that little
misunderstandings should be
addressed before they
snowball into bigger
misconceptions.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
> If we specify a general
Network Sensor API, then
content can run<br>
> with any X3D Player
that supports the Network
Sensor API.<br>
<br>
If you read again my last
paragraph, I try to make a
distinction between a
multiuser client and a X3D
player. In other words, the
player is not necessarily
the client. It appears to be
a common misconception that
the X3D player must also be
the MU client, while in
truth it really doesn't have
to. For the reasons
previously stated, I tend to
prefer that the player does
not in fact act as the
client.<br>
<br>
<br>
> However, if I use the
X3Daemon Client API, then I
MUST use the X3Daemon<br>
> Server, because the
protocol is proprietary.<br>
<br>
<br>
That is precisely why I am
here. I do NOT want the
application protocol to be
proprietary. And the fact
that we still don't have a
standard keeps me from
moving forward, because any
development efforts I make
may someday have to be
rewritten once we do have a
standard. IOW, I am not a
big fan of reworking
systems. I'd rather use open
standards as early in the
process as possible to
facilitate interoperability
later.<br>
<br>
<br>
> If the protocol was
specified, then I could use
ANY<br>
> server with the
X3Daemon Client.<br>
<br>
<br>
Ideally, systems could
interoperate, though there
are other factors to
consider. For example
avatars must login to
authenticate their identity
and assets, consisting of
information that may or may
not be available to a third
party server. But yes, you
get the general idea.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
> It is not sufficient to
specify the<br>
> fields and the
behaviour of the
NetworkSensor node. ...,<br>
> but I had the feeling
that you want to<br>
> omit the specification
of the protocol.<br>
<br>
<br>
Read again, I was referring
specifically to network
protocols. Still, at this
early stage, I feel it may
be a little premature to get
too involved with an
application protocol, that
until we get a better grasp
of what the requirements
will be. For this reason, I
am of the opinion that
fields and events should be
specified first. Just so
that we have something to
build upon.<br>
<br>
Of the published work
available in that regard, we
have BS Collaborate, DIS,
and the Draft X3D
Specification for
NetworkSensor. I think the
first step would be to take
these, see what they have in
common, and go from there
for deeper analyses.<br>
<br>
Once we have that settled,
IMO, only then should we
turn to discuss an
application layer protocol
and its ramifications. GL<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
> -----Original
Message-----<br>
> From: x3d-public [<a
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="mailto:x3d-public-bounces@web3d.org" moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:x3d-public-bounces@web3d.org</a>[<a
class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:x3d-public-bounces@web3d.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:x3d-public-bounces@web3d.org</a>]]
On Behalf Of<br>
> Christoph Valentin<br>
> Sent: Friday, January
8, 2021 5:09 PM<br>
> To: X3D Graphics public
mailing list<br>
> Subject: Re:
[x3d-public] X3D and VRML
for multiuser worlds<br>
><br>
> Dear Gina Lauren<br>
><br>
> Please find some feed
back *inline*.<br>
><br>
> Generally, please do
not judge too hard, I'm not
a native speaker and still<br>
> some of my wordings do
not fit to the real
intention.<br>
><br>
> Kind regards,<br>
> Christoph<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
> >You want to lock in
your users. That's not the
spirit of open source.<br>
><br>
> For once I was
beginning to open up about
the inner workings of a
multiuser<br>
> system, but
surprisingly, you apparently
don't want to hear about it.
It is<br>
> difficult to talk about
open standards for a NSN if
we can't refer to<br>
> actual implementations.
It's not like there are a
lot of them around..<br>
> [CV]: I should not have
written this. However, I was
a little bit<br>
> impatient, because I
have been preaching for
years and years that the<br>
> protocol itself must be
specified. It is not
sufficient to specify the<br>
> fields and the
behaviour of the
NetworkSensor node. Maybe I
did not read<br>
> your words sufficiently
thoroughly, but I had the
feeling that you want to<br>
> omit the specification
of the protocol.<br>
><br>
> Also, who said anything
about open source being a
requirement? I was<br>
> actually volunteering
closed source information
for the benefit of an open<br>
> standard. If you can't
see that I was actually
"giving" something to the<br>
> community.. then
perhaps I am wasting my
time???<br>
> [CV]: Here I used "open
source" and meant "open
protocols", sorry, my<br>
> mistake. And, yes, I
also "gave" a lot. Using too
much time for my hobbies,<br>
> was one major reason,
why my wife left us in 2015
(afterwards the SrrTrains<br>
> v0.01 project fell into
hibernation mode due to lack
of resources).<br>
><br>
> Finally, if you would
like to discuss an
application layer protocol,
maybe<br>
> look into work that has
been done in the past
referred to as vrtp and
x3dp.<br>
> Not much, but a
starting point. So far I
have only heard vague
comments<br>
> about SCTP, UDP, etc.
(see below)<br>
> [CV]: I am sure that
many people have contributed
many parts of the puzzle.<br>
> Now we need somebody,
who fits all together
(that's not me, is it?)<br>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
> > [CV]: I never
suggested to specifiy the
transport protocol (http,
rtp,<br>
> > sctp, tcp, msrp,
sip, xmpp, ........).<br>
><br>
> hhhmmm.. I'm confused,
what is this about???<br>
> [CV]: Let's assume, we
specify an "Application
Layer Protocol" (let's call<br>
> it ALP in the sense of
a "working title"). Probably
the ALP will consist of<br>
> the definition of a few
PDUs (e.g. in XML, JSON,
YAML or similar syntax).<br>
> Now we have to define,
how the PDUs have to be
transmitted over the<br>
> network. Will they be
sent as payload in http
messages (in the body)? Will<br>
> they be sent as payload
in SIP messages (in the
body)? Will they be sent<br>
> directly over tcp
connections?<br>
> To get historically: at
the beginning of the IETF
they had a great<br>
> movement. You could get
T-Shirts with the meme "IP
over everything". IP<br>
> should connect any
network with any network,
building the Inter-network.
So<br>
> they had to write one
RFC for each L2 protocol in
order to specify, how IP<br>
> has to be transported
over any L2 link/network.<br>
> I am dreaming of an
"ALP over everything"
movement.<br>
><br>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
> >[CV]: SCTP and UDP
are members of the TCP/IP
protocol family. UDP is as<br>
> >old as TCP, just
simpler. SCTP is younger. It
tries to merge advantages<br>
> >of both TCP and UDP
and was originally invented
to transport SS7 protocols<br>
> >(SIGTRAN). SCTP
supports 64k streams per
association, what perfectly
fits<br>
> >to our needs, imho<br>
><br>
> Why are you trying to
lecture me about network
protocols? And what is it<br>
> exactly that you are
saying or not saying, I find
rather perplexing and<br>
> fail to see the
relevancy. Let's keep
going...<br>
> [CV]: I thought you
wrote "SCTP is not TCP/IP".
I want to stress that SCTP<br>
> actually IS TCP/IP<br>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
> >[CV]: Actually I
suggested to specifiy ONE
AND ONLY ONE application
layer<br>
> protocol,<br>
><br>
> No-one is questioning
this as far as I know. Isn't
that precisely what we<br>
> are trying to do?<br>
> Why are you augmenting
this in my comments?<br>
><br>
> [CV]: (see above) Maybe
I did not read your words
sufficiently thoroughly,<br>
> but I had the feeling
that you want to omit the
specification of the<br>
> protocol.<br>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
> >[CV]: The API (i.e
Network Sensor) must be
specified to run ONE content<br>
> with ANY X3D Player.<br>
><br>
> Let's be careful here.
The X3D player does not
necessarily need to have<br>
> agency over the
application protocol. For
example the X3Daemon client<br>
> (sorry to bring it up)
is entirely separate from
the player other than for<br>
> interpreting
ECMAScripts and rendering
the results to screen. IOW,
the<br>
> X3Daemon client can
theoretically run in any X3D
player, regardless of<br>
> internal multiuser
coding, as long as
ECMAScript (JavaScript) is
supported.<br>
> This makes it very easy
for authors to script avatar
and object behaviors,<br>
> since it provides
direct access to X3D nodes.
It is also a reason why we<br>
> need to define a
NetworkSensor node as part
of the X3D standard.<br>
> [CV]: That's exactly
what I am saying: you
specified your X3Daemon
client<br>
> API, so a content that
uses that API, can
theoretically run with ANY
X3D<br>
> Player (that the
X3Daemon client supports).
If we specify a general
Network<br>
> Sensor API, then
content can run with any X3D
Player that supports the<br>
> Network Sensor API.<br>
> However, if I use the
X3Daemon Client API, then I
MUST use the X3Daemon<br>
> Server, because the
protocol is proprietary. If
the protocol was specified,<br>
> then I could use ANY
server with the X3Daemon
Client. It's similar with BS<br>
> Contact and BS
Collaborate.<br>
> Most customers are very
sensitive about getting
locked in. No matter if<br>
> open source or closed
source. We (my employer)
made this experience with<br>
> railway operators, too.<br>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
><br>
><br>
> GL<br>
><br>
>
________________________________________________________<br>
> * * * Interactive
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