<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
</head>
<body>
<p>Just when I give up, a google search works!</p>
<p>udpSocket.setsockopt(socket.SOL_SOCKET, socket.SO_REUSEADDR, 1)</p>
<p>Please make this chagne in the example receiver in
open-dis-python (I'll file an issue).</p>
<p>This allows multiple receivers on the same machine, so we don't
really need a VPN to test, but I think I will continue testing.</p>
coderextreme@coderextreme-Kubuntu20:~/open-dis-python$ jobs<br>
[1]- Running python3 examples/dis_receiver.py &<br>
[2]+ Running python3 examples/dis_receiver.py &<br>
coderextreme@coderextreme-Kubuntu20:~/open-dis-python$ !py<br>
python3 examples/dis_sender.py <br>
Sent EntityStatePdu. 144 bytes<br>
Received EntityStatePdu. Id: 42, Location: 36.59999999462713 -121.9
1.00080256909132<br>
<p>Received EntityStatePdu. Id: 42, Location: 36.59999999462713
-121.9 1.00080256909132</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>VPN should be freed up shortly.</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>John<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 1/25/21 6:50 PM, John Carlson wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:2f2e91df-7767-b9a5-e416-b19e2b4421c3@gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<p>I did not have luck running 2 receivers on the same machine.
Perhaps I am missing something?</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>John<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 1/25/21 6:32 PM, John Carlson
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:986c6e46-6da2-fdb7-a9cb-a5d7ecb962fd@gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=UTF-8">
<p>Voila!</p>
<p>$ netstat -gn|grep tun0<br>
tun0 1 224.0.0.1<br>
tun0 1 ff02::1<br>
tun0 1 ff01::1</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Please schedule a time and add me to the participants list so
we can test the multicast (2 receivers, one sender).</p>
<p>I will test to see if I can run 2 receivers on one host,with
224.0.0.1</p>
<p>John<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 1/25/21 6:27 PM, John Carlson
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:f466387d-e251-d930-e2d4-c6591da3662c@gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=UTF-8">
<p>netstat -g looks useful for determining multicast
addresses.</p>
<p>John</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 1/25/21 6:11 PM, John Carlson
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:745257ef-2767-4095-39aa-244f2d5e3494@gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=UTF-8">
<p>I figured out how to translate into English!</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>John<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 1/25/21 6:08 PM, John
Carlson wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:8f2d8846-4970-2559-6353-5a3552976761@gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=UTF-8">
<p>Ah, no VPN required!</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>John</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>On 1/25/21 5:33 PM, John Carlson wrote:</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:3a409cf5-5203-a5d2-f362-296c0589bda3@gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=UTF-8">
<p>Okay, so I have to schedule on a calender when to use
VPN, but first I have to get on VPN</p>
<p>I got to the calendar. Is there some way to translate
to English?</p>
<p>This is the point where you steal my files? It
always seems to happen with VPN.<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 1/25/21 5:08 PM,
Christoph Valentin wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:trinity-10900d88-0f4d-4369-8ef2-973affe0e99d-1611616085330@3c-app-gmx-bap08">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html;
charset=UTF-8">
<div style="font-family: Verdana;font-size: 12.0px;">
<div>Hi John,</div>
<div> </div>
<div>You can access the VPN's calendar directly at
the experimental owncloud web interface at my
vServer:</div>
<div> </div>
<div>(owncloud is a framework mainly for file
sharing, but also has calendar and contacts via
WebDav)</div>
<div> </div>
<div>URL <a href="http://lc-soc-lc.at/owncloud"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://lc-soc-lc.at/owncloud</a></div>
<div>
<div>user name vpncal</div>
<div>password X3D4</div>
<div> </div>
<div>All the best</div>
<div>Christoph</div>
<div>
<div name="quote" style="margin:10px 5px 5px
10px; padding: 10px 0 10px 10px;
border-left:2px solid #C3D9E5; word-wrap:
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space;
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space;">
<div style="margin:0 0 10px 0;"><b>Gesendet:</b> Sonntag,
24. Januar 2021 um 15:35 Uhr<br>
<b>Von:</b> "Christoph Valentin" <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at"
moz-do-not-send="true"><christoph.valentin@gmx.at></a><br>
<b>An:</b> "John Carlson" <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"><yottzumm@gmail.com></a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> "X3D Graphics public mailing
list" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org"
moz-do-not-send="true"><x3d-public@web3d.org></a><br>
<b>Betreff:</b> [x3d-public] Fw: Tiny VPN
for Use by Web3D Community (max. 10
connections at a time)</div>
<div name="quoted-content">
<div style="font-family: Verdana;font-size:
12.0px;">
<div>John,</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Please <span style="font-size:
14.0px;"><strong>expect some
maintenance work (short
interruptions) next week Saturday
(30th January).</strong></span></div>
<div> </div>
<div>I have now <span style="font-size:
14.0px;"><strong>defined an online
calendar for the VPN</strong></span>,
to avoid flooding the mailing list.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>The calendar can be <span
style="font-size: 14.0px;"><strong>easily
integrated with the calendar on your
Android phone</strong></span> (see
the green entry below!!!).</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Probably it is possible to integrate
it with any smartphone (it uses the
WebDav standard), but I haven't tried.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Installation instructions:</div>
<div>1) Install DAVx5 on your Android
smartphone (available at F-Droid)</div>
<div>2) Create new DAVx5 account <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:vpncal@lc-soc-lc.at"
moz-do-not-send="true">"vpncal@lc-soc-lc.at"</a></div>
<div> - URL: <a
href="https://lc-soc-lc.at/owncloud/remote.php/dav/calendars/vpncal/personal/"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://lc-soc-lc.at/owncloud/remote.php/dav/calendars/vpncal/personal/</a></div>
<div> - user: vpncal</div>
<div> - pw: X3D4</div>
<div>3) Enable and trigger the
synchronization of WebCal</div>
<div>4) Go to "Calendar" App: make sure
the "personal" calendar is activated for
display</div>
<div> </div>
<div>The installation instructions will be
available at <a
href="https://lc-soc-lc.at/experimental"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://lc-soc-lc.at/experimental</a>
soon.</div>
<div><img
src="cid:part8.BF9CEE4E.E9B564DC@gmail.com"
class="" width="275" height="488">
<div>
<div> </div>
<div>If you have set the
synchronization correctly, then it
should be possible for you to make
calendar entries, too (e.g. test
sessions, where you need more than 2
connections, or some specific
multicast address).</div>
<div> </div>
<div>KR</div>
<div>Christoph</div>
<div> </div>
<div style="margin: 10.0px 5.0px 5.0px
10.0px;padding: 10.0px 0 10.0px
10.0px;border-left: 2.0px solid
rgb(195,217,229);">
<div style="margin: 0 0 10.0px 0;"><b>Gesendet:</b> Samstag,
23. Januar 2021 um 14:11 Uhr<br>
<b>Von:</b> "Christoph Valentin" <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at"
moz-do-not-send="true"><christoph.valentin@gmx.at></a><br>
<b>An:</b> "X3D Graphics public
mailing list" <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org"
moz-do-not-send="true"><x3d-public@web3d.org></a><br>
<b>Betreff:</b> [x3d-public] Tiny
VPN for Use by Web3D Community
(max. 10 connections at a time)</div>
<div>
<div style="font-family:
Verdana;font-size: 12.0px;">
<div>Hi John, Gina Lauren,
Jordi, and all interested in
multiuser</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Being very curious to get
to know, whether the
"server-less mode" could
really work, I was thinking
about what could I contribute?</div>
<div> </div>
<div>I have got this tiny
vServer at hoststar.at (hosted
at some cloud in Germany),
where I could implement a VPN
for "server-less experiments".</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Voilá</div>
<div> </div>
<div>So, if you have a Windows
10 client, then what you can
do:</div>
<div> </div>
<div>1) Install OpenVPN Connect
software (community edition) -
<a
href="https://openvpn.net/community-downloads/"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://openvpn.net/community-downloads/</a><br>
<br>
2) Unzip the config.zip from
attachment into C:\Program
Files\OpenVPN\config</div>
<div> </div>
<div>3) Start OpenVPN Client</div>
<div> </div>
<div>4) Connect</div>
<div> </div>
<div>5) Now your client is a
multihomed host with an
additional network interface
at 172.27.224.0/19</div>
<div> </div>
<div>6) The network
172.27.224.0/19 is an island.
Only people, who receive this
e-mail, can connect.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>What is missing:</div>
<div> </div>
<div>a) a proof that multicast
addresses work on the VPN</div>
<div>b) an online calendar to
coordinate the multicast
sessions at the VPN-> I
will provide this on request.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>KR,</div>
<div>Christoph</div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div><br>
<br>
<br>
Gesendet: Samstag, 23. Januar
2021 um 01:34 Uhr<br>
Von: "Christoph Valentin" <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at"
moz-do-not-send="true"><christoph.valentin@gmx.at></a><br>
An: "John Carlson" <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com" moz-do-not-send="true"><yottzumm@gmail.com></a><br>
Cc: "X3D Graphics public
mailing list" <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org" moz-do-not-send="true"><x3d-public@web3d.org></a><br>
Betreff: Re: [x3d-public] X3D
and VRML for multiuser worlds<br>
Hi John,<br>
<br>
Currently having two issues:<br>
<br>
1) can test the VPN only with
two Windows clients -> you
have to create your own
experience with the Linux
client<br>
2) still have to make the VPN
permanent -> now the VPN
has to be restarted manually
after server restart.<br>
<br>
Pls. expect final answer by
Saturday evening, CET.<br>
<br>
My plan:<br>
<br>
I will publish (at a hidden
place):<br>
<br>
a) example configuration from
Windows OpenVPN Connect client<br>
b) ca-yeti.crt self-signed
root certificate, which you
have to trust<br>
c) x3d-public.key private key
for the Web3D community (not
really private)<br>
d) x3d-public.crt certificate
for the Web3D community
(signed by yeti -> my
server will let you in)<br>
e) ta.key additional symmetric
key (must be identical on
client and server)<br>
<br>
Physical restriction: max. 10
connections at the same time,
dynamic IP addresses from a
private IPv4 range
(172.27.224.0/19).<br>
<br>
The VPN will be an island -
the server will not route that
subnet, unless from one client
to the others (hopefully
including multicast packets -
not yet tested). <br>
<br>
KR<br>
Christoph<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Gesendet: Freitag, 22. Januar
2021 um 07:38 Uhr<br>
Von: "John Carlson" <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com" moz-do-not-send="true"><yottzumm@gmail.com></a><br>
An: "Christoph Valentin" <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at" moz-do-not-send="true"><christoph.valentin@gmx.at></a><br>
Cc: "X3D Graphics public
mailing list" <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org" moz-do-not-send="true"><x3d-public@web3d.org></a><br>
Betreff: Re: [x3d-public] X3D
and VRML for multiuser worlds<br>
I am now prepared to have a
"client" of your UDP DIS
server at hoststar.at. I need
things like address and port,
per X3D PDU nodes.<br>
<br>
If there is ssh information
for reaching your server
network, let me know. This is
my preferred method. I do not
believe I need special
permission except for perhaps
a new user account.<br>
<br>
I've never really used a VPN,
and will probably need
instructions. My experience
with VPN varies "not very
useful" and "OMG, my friends
are going to steal my files."<br>
<br>
John<br>
<br>
On 1/10/21 11:28 PM, Christoph
Valentin wrote:<br>
If everything works fine (and
if I've understood correctly),
then you can do tests with
multicast IP transport,
although you are
geographically separated.<br>
<br>
That's what I would like to
try basically<br>
<br>
--<br>
Diese Nachricht wurde von
meinem Android Mobiltelefon
mit GMX Mail gesendet.<br>
Am 11.01.21, 05:11 schrieb
John Carlson <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com" moz-do-not-send="true"><yottzumm@gmail.com></a>[<a
class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com</a>]:<br>
My friends have asked me to
set up a VPN on my machine in
the past. I don't really see
the value of a VPN. <br>
<br>
On Sun, Jan 10, 2021 at 7:03
PM Christoph Valentin <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at[mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at]"
moz-do-not-send="true"><christoph.valentin@gmx.at[mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at]></a>
wrote:<br>
<br>
What I am going to try is to
setup a VPN with OpenVPN and
my vServer at hoststar.at[<a
href="http://hoststar.at"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://hoststar.at</a>],
so we can do a test session
with DIS (hopefully).<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Gesendet: Sonntag, 10. Januar
2021 um 23:13 Uhr<br>
Von: "John Carlson" <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com[mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com]"
moz-do-not-send="true"><yottzumm@gmail.com[mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com]></a><br>
An: "Christoph Valentin" <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at[mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at]"
moz-do-not-send="true"><christoph.valentin@gmx.at[mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at]></a><br>
Cc: "X3D Graphics public
mailing list" <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org[mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org]"
moz-do-not-send="true"><x3d-public@web3d.org[mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org]></a><br>
Betreff: Re: [x3d-public] X3D
and VRML for multiuser worlds<br>
<br>
What I was going to do is try
to get DIS from GitHub and DIS
from X_ITE to talk to each
other.<br>
<br>
John<br>
<br>
On Sun, Jan 10, 2021 at 1:08
PM Christoph Valentin <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at[mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at]"
moz-do-not-send="true"><christoph.valentin@gmx.at[mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at]></a>
wrote:<br>
ok<br>
<br>
let me repeat your proposal:<br>
<br>
>>>>> Of the
published work available in
that regard, we have BS
Collaborate, DIS, and the
Draft X3D Specification for
NetworkSensor. I think the
first step would be to take
these, see what they have in
common, and go from there for
deeper analyses.<br>
<br>
I think everybody agrees.<br>
<br>
So what would be the very
first step (before the first
step)? Assign
responsibilities? Create a
Wiki? Ask for official
decision? Just do it? Who?
What? When? Create an official
backlog? Use the S&P-ARK?<br>
<br>
kind regards<br>
Christoph<br>
<br>
--<br>
Diese Nachricht wurde von
meinem Android Mobiltelefon
mit GMX Mail gesendet.<br>
<br>
Am 09.01.21, 07:40 schrieb
Christoph Valentin <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at[mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at]"
moz-do-not-send="true"><christoph.valentin@gmx.at[mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at]></a>:<br>
<br>
Not much,<br>
<br>
1) It's another use case,
which has proven it's
usefulness during SrrTrains
v0.01:<br>
- Customized Client Side
Calculations<br>
( sent to x3d-public
in January 2014: <a
href="https://areasharpa.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/smuos_03_sema_2018_04_27.pdf"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://areasharpa.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/smuos_03_sema_2018_04_27.pdf</a>[<a
href="https://areasharpa.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/smuos_03_sema_2018_04_27.pdf"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://areasharpa.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/smuos_03_sema_2018_04_27.pdf</a>][<a
href="https://areasharpa.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/smuos_03_sema_2018_04_27.pdf"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://areasharpa.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/smuos_03_sema_2018_04_27.pdf</a>[<a
href="https://areasharpa.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/smuos_03_sema_2018_04_27.pdf"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://areasharpa.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/smuos_03_sema_2018_04_27.pdf</a>]]
)<br>
<br>
2) And an idea (which is not
yet settled).<br>
- idea is to have two
levels of identification:<br>
identify the sensor by
"streamName" +
"networkSensorId"<br>
(BS Collaborate:
only "streamName"<br>
Octaga: only
"networkSensorId")<br>
<br>
1) the stream
= the model = the real life
entity e.g. "car"<br>
2) the sensor
nodes themselves
e.g. "steering", "motor",
"doors"<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Gesendet: Samstag, 09. Januar
2021 um 03:59 Uhr<br>
Von: "GL" <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:info@3dnetproductions.com[mailto:info@3dnetproductions.com]"
moz-do-not-send="true"><info@3dnetproductions.com[mailto:info@3dnetproductions.com]></a><br>
An: "'X3D Graphics public
mailing list'" <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org[mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org]"
moz-do-not-send="true"><x3d-public@web3d.org[mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org]></a><br>
Betreff: Re: [x3d-public] X3D
and VRML for multiuser worlds<br>
<br>
I am not sure what results you
are referring to. Did I miss
something?<br>
<br>
<br>
From: x3d-public [<a
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="mailto:x3d-public-bounces@web3d.org" moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:x3d-public-bounces@web3d.org</a>[<a
class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:x3d-public-bounces@web3d.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:x3d-public-bounces@web3d.org</a>]]
On Behalf Of Christoph
Valentin<br>
Sent: Friday, January 8, 2021
9:21 PM<br>
To: 'X3D Graphics public
mailing list'<br>
Subject: Re: [x3d-public] Re:
X3D and VRML for multiuser
worlds<br>
<br>
<br>
so basically you want to
ignore my results?<br>
<br>
--<br>
Diese Nachricht wurde von
meinem Android Mobiltelefon
mit GMX Mail gesendet.<br>
<br>
Am 09.01.21, 01:07 schrieb GL
<a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:info@3dnetproductions.com[mailto:info@3dnetproductions.com]"
moz-do-not-send="true"><info@3dnetproductions.com[mailto:info@3dnetproductions.com]></a>:<br>
Christoph,<br>
<br>
Thank you for the
clarifications and your
general dedication. I believe
that little misunderstandings
should be addressed before
they snowball into bigger
misconceptions.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
> If we specify a general
Network Sensor API, then
content can run<br>
> with any X3D Player that
supports the Network Sensor
API.<br>
<br>
If you read again my last
paragraph, I try to make a
distinction between a
multiuser client and a X3D
player. In other words, the
player is not necessarily the
client. It appears to be a
common misconception that the
X3D player must also be the MU
client, while in truth it
really doesn't have to. For
the reasons previously stated,
I tend to prefer that the
player does not in fact act as
the client.<br>
<br>
<br>
> However, if I use the
X3Daemon Client API, then I
MUST use the X3Daemon<br>
> Server, because the
protocol is proprietary.<br>
<br>
<br>
That is precisely why I am
here. I do NOT want the
application protocol to be
proprietary. And the fact that
we still don't have a standard
keeps me from moving forward,
because any development
efforts I make may someday
have to be rewritten once we
do have a standard. IOW, I am
not a big fan of reworking
systems. I'd rather use open
standards as early in the
process as possible to
facilitate interoperability
later.<br>
<br>
<br>
> If the protocol was
specified, then I could use
ANY<br>
> server with the X3Daemon
Client.<br>
<br>
<br>
Ideally, systems could
interoperate, though there are
other factors to consider. For
example avatars must login to
authenticate their identity
and assets, consisting of
information that may or may
not be available to a third
party server. But yes, you get
the general idea.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
> It is not sufficient to
specify the<br>
> fields and the behaviour
of the NetworkSensor node.
...,<br>
> but I had the feeling
that you want to<br>
> omit the specification of
the protocol.<br>
<br>
<br>
Read again, I was referring
specifically to network
protocols. Still, at this
early stage, I feel it may be
a little premature to get too
involved with an application
protocol, that until we get a
better grasp of what the
requirements will be. For this
reason, I am of the opinion
that fields and events should
be specified first. Just so
that we have something to
build upon.<br>
<br>
Of the published work
available in that regard, we
have BS Collaborate, DIS, and
the Draft X3D Specification
for NetworkSensor. I think the
first step would be to take
these, see what they have in
common, and go from there for
deeper analyses.<br>
<br>
Once we have that settled,
IMO, only then should we turn
to discuss an application
layer protocol and its
ramifications. GL<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
> -----Original
Message-----<br>
> From: x3d-public [<a
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="mailto:x3d-public-bounces@web3d.org" moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:x3d-public-bounces@web3d.org</a>[<a
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On Behalf Of<br>
> Christoph Valentin<br>
> Sent: Friday, January 8,
2021 5:09 PM<br>
> To: X3D Graphics public
mailing list<br>
> Subject: Re: [x3d-public]
X3D and VRML for multiuser
worlds<br>
><br>
> Dear Gina Lauren<br>
><br>
> Please find some feed
back *inline*.<br>
><br>
> Generally, please do not
judge too hard, I'm not a
native speaker and still<br>
> some of my wordings do
not fit to the real intention.<br>
><br>
> Kind regards,<br>
> Christoph<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
> >You want to lock in
your users. That's not the
spirit of open source.<br>
><br>
> For once I was beginning
to open up about the inner
workings of a multiuser<br>
> system, but surprisingly,
you apparently don't want to
hear about it. It is<br>
> difficult to talk about
open standards for a NSN if we
can't refer to<br>
> actual implementations.
It's not like there are a lot
of them around..<br>
> [CV]: I should not have
written this. However, I was a
little bit<br>
> impatient, because I have
been preaching for years and
years that the<br>
> protocol itself must be
specified. It is not
sufficient to specify the<br>
> fields and the behaviour
of the NetworkSensor node.
Maybe I did not read<br>
> your words sufficiently
thoroughly, but I had the
feeling that you want to<br>
> omit the specification of
the protocol.<br>
><br>
> Also, who said anything
about open source being a
requirement? I was<br>
> actually volunteering
closed source information for
the benefit of an open<br>
> standard. If you can't
see that I was actually
"giving" something to the<br>
> community.. then perhaps
I am wasting my time???<br>
> [CV]: Here I used "open
source" and meant "open
protocols", sorry, my<br>
> mistake. And, yes, I also
"gave" a lot. Using too much
time for my hobbies,<br>
> was one major reason, why
my wife left us in 2015
(afterwards the SrrTrains<br>
> v0.01 project fell into
hibernation mode due to lack
of resources).<br>
><br>
> Finally, if you would
like to discuss an application
layer protocol, maybe<br>
> look into work that has
been done in the past referred
to as vrtp and x3dp.<br>
> Not much, but a starting
point. So far I have only
heard vague comments<br>
> about SCTP, UDP, etc.
(see below)<br>
> [CV]: I am sure that many
people have contributed many
parts of the puzzle.<br>
> Now we need somebody, who
fits all together (that's not
me, is it?)<br>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
> > [CV]: I never
suggested to specifiy the
transport protocol (http, rtp,<br>
> > sctp, tcp, msrp,
sip, xmpp, ........).<br>
><br>
> hhhmmm.. I'm confused,
what is this about???<br>
> [CV]: Let's assume, we
specify an "Application Layer
Protocol" (let's call<br>
> it ALP in the sense of a
"working title"). Probably the
ALP will consist of<br>
> the definition of a few
PDUs (e.g. in XML, JSON, YAML
or similar syntax).<br>
> Now we have to define,
how the PDUs have to be
transmitted over the<br>
> network. Will they be
sent as payload in http
messages (in the body)? Will<br>
> they be sent as payload
in SIP messages (in the body)?
Will they be sent<br>
> directly over tcp
connections?<br>
> To get historically: at
the beginning of the IETF they
had a great<br>
> movement. You could get
T-Shirts with the meme "IP
over everything". IP<br>
> should connect any
network with any network,
building the Inter-network. So<br>
> they had to write one RFC
for each L2 protocol in order
to specify, how IP<br>
> has to be transported
over any L2 link/network.<br>
> I am dreaming of an "ALP
over everything" movement.<br>
><br>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
> >[CV]: SCTP and UDP
are members of the TCP/IP
protocol family. UDP is as<br>
> >old as TCP, just
simpler. SCTP is younger. It
tries to merge advantages<br>
> >of both TCP and UDP
and was originally invented to
transport SS7 protocols<br>
> >(SIGTRAN). SCTP
supports 64k streams per
association, what perfectly
fits<br>
> >to our needs, imho<br>
><br>
> Why are you trying to
lecture me about network
protocols? And what is it<br>
> exactly that you are
saying or not saying, I find
rather perplexing and<br>
> fail to see the
relevancy. Let's keep going...<br>
> [CV]: I thought you wrote
"SCTP is not TCP/IP". I want
to stress that SCTP<br>
> actually IS TCP/IP<br>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
> >[CV]: Actually I
suggested to specifiy ONE AND
ONLY ONE application layer<br>
> protocol,<br>
><br>
> No-one is questioning
this as far as I know. Isn't
that precisely what we<br>
> are trying to do?<br>
> Why are you augmenting
this in my comments?<br>
><br>
> [CV]: (see above) Maybe I
did not read your words
sufficiently thoroughly,<br>
> but I had the feeling
that you want to omit the
specification of the<br>
> protocol.<br>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
> >[CV]: The API (i.e
Network Sensor) must be
specified to run ONE content<br>
> with ANY X3D Player.<br>
><br>
> Let's be careful here.
The X3D player does not
necessarily need to have<br>
> agency over the
application protocol. For
example the X3Daemon client<br>
> (sorry to bring it up) is
entirely separate from the
player other than for<br>
> interpreting ECMAScripts
and rendering the results to
screen. IOW, the<br>
> X3Daemon client can
theoretically run in any X3D
player, regardless of<br>
> internal multiuser
coding, as long as ECMAScript
(JavaScript) is supported.<br>
> This makes it very easy
for authors to script avatar
and object behaviors,<br>
> since it provides direct
access to X3D nodes. It is
also a reason why we<br>
> need to define a
NetworkSensor node as part of
the X3D standard.<br>
> [CV]: That's exactly what
I am saying: you specified
your X3Daemon client<br>
> API, so a content that
uses that API, can
theoretically run with ANY X3D<br>
> Player (that the X3Daemon
client supports). If we
specify a general Network<br>
> Sensor API, then content
can run with any X3D Player
that supports the<br>
> Network Sensor API.<br>
> However, if I use the
X3Daemon Client API, then I
MUST use the X3Daemon<br>
> Server, because the
protocol is proprietary. If
the protocol was specified,<br>
> then I could use ANY
server with the X3Daemon
Client. It's similar with BS<br>
> Contact and BS
Collaborate.<br>
> Most customers are very
sensitive about getting locked
in. No matter if<br>
> open source or closed
source. We (my employer) made
this experience with<br>
> railway operators, too.<br>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
><br>
><br>
> GL<br>
><br>
>
________________________________________________________<br>
> * * * Interactive
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