<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
</head>
<body>
<p>QUIC can apparently do multicasting like this:</p>
<p><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://nodejs.org/api/quic.html#quic_net_createquicsocket_options">https://nodejs.org/api/quic.html#quic_net_createquicsocket_options</a><br>
</p>
<h4><code>"quicendpoint.addMembership(address, iface)</code><span><a
class="mark"
href="https://nodejs.org/api/quic.html#quic_quicendpoint_addmembership_address_iface"
id="quic_quicendpoint_addmembership_address_iface">#</a></span></h4>
<div class="api_metadata">
<span>Added in: v15.0.0</span>
</div>
<ul>
<li><code>address</code> <a
href="https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/JavaScript/Data_structures#String_type"
class="type"><string></a></li>
<li><code>iface</code> <a
href="https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/JavaScript/Data_structures#String_type"
class="type"><string></a></li>
</ul>
<p>Tells the kernel to join a multicast group at the given <code>multicastAddress</code>
and
<code>multicastInterface</code> using the <code>IP_ADD_MEMBERSHIP</code>
socket option. If the
<code>multicastInterface</code> argument is not specified, the
operating system will
choose one interface and will add membership to it. To add
membership to every
available interface, call <code>addMembership()</code> multiple
times, once per
interface."</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Anyone want to write Node.js code? Christoph, can we do ALP
across QUIC?</p>
<p>Thanks!</p>
<p>John<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 1/25/21 10:27 PM, John Carlson
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:137301ce-2b64-96e9-b80e-0bf160d6dfca@gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<p>We can meet at 11am CST.</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>I hope to have something in Xj3D by that time. We can plan
possible enhancements to X_ITE (so that X_ITE nodes can become
DIS senders and receivers). I haven't solved how to do
SO_REUSEADDR or SO_REUSEPORT in JavaScript yet, and especially
on a browser, although browsers use QUIC these days. It could
be that HTTP or HTTPS over QUIC would be sufficient to carry
ALP. I guess a lot of sites are doing video over HTTP (HTTPS?)
these days. <br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>John<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 1/25/21 9:37 PM, Christoph
Valentin wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:trinity-ef207297-72e1-479f-8d70-f7e684317fbb-1611632230334@3c-app-gmx-bap72">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html;
charset=UTF-8">
<div style="font-family: Verdana;font-size: 12.0px;">
<div>Good Morning!</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Congrats.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Just to be sure: Do you still want to do test session
with 1 sender and 2 receivers?</div>
<div> </div>
<div>I could manage to be available next Saturday 18:00 -
24:00 Viennese time.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>I entered the appointment to the VPN calendar, but <em>I'm
not sure, if the calendar is smart enough to display the
time correctly for your time zone. Could you check this?
Thx</em></div>
<div> </div>
<div><em>Christoph</em></div>
<div>
<div>
<div name="quote" style="margin:10px 5px 5px 10px;
padding: 10px 0 10px 10px; border-left:2px solid
#C3D9E5; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode:
space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;">
<div style="margin:0 0 10px 0;"><b>Gesendet:</b> Montag,
25. Januar 2021 um 18:08 Uhr<br>
<b>Von:</b> "John Carlson" <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"><yottzumm@gmail.com></a><br>
<b>An:</b> "Christoph Valentin" <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at"
moz-do-not-send="true"><christoph.valentin@gmx.at></a>,
"Don Brutzman" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:brutzman@nps.edu"
moz-do-not-send="true"><brutzman@nps.edu></a>,
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:holger.seelig@yahoo.de"
moz-do-not-send="true">holger.seelig@yahoo.de</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> "X3D Graphics public mailing list" <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org"
moz-do-not-send="true"><x3d-public@web3d.org></a><br>
<b>Betreff:</b> Re: Fw: [x3d-public] Tiny VPN for Use
by Web3D Community (max. 10 connections at a time)</div>
<div name="quoted-content">
<p>I remember back in 1985-1986 when I was first doing
networking, I ran into this reusing the receiver
port and address, but I had forgotten!</p>
<p>Hurray!</p>
<p>So that may be something to set up in the X3D
browser!</p>
<p> </p>
<p>John</p>
<p> </p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 1/25/21 7:01 PM, John
Carlson wrote:</div>
<blockquote>
<p>Just when I give up, a google search works!</p>
<p>udpSocket.setsockopt(socket.SOL_SOCKET,
socket.SO_REUSEADDR, 1)</p>
<p>Please make this chagne in the example receiver
in open-dis-python (I'll file an issue).</p>
<p>This allows multiple receivers on the same
machine, so we don't really need a VPN to test,
but I think I will continue testing.</p>
coderextreme@coderextreme-Kubuntu20:~/open-dis-python$ jobs<br>
[1]- Running python3
examples/dis_receiver.py &<br>
[2]+ Running python3
examples/dis_receiver.py &<br>
coderextreme@coderextreme-Kubuntu20:~/open-dis-python$ !py<br>
python3 examples/dis_sender.py<br>
Sent EntityStatePdu. 144 bytes<br>
Received EntityStatePdu. Id: 42, Location:
36.59999999462713 -121.9 1.00080256909132
<p>Received EntityStatePdu. Id: 42, Location:
36.59999999462713 -121.9 1.00080256909132</p>
<p> </p>
<p>VPN should be freed up shortly.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>John</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 1/25/21 6:50 PM,
John Carlson wrote:</div>
<blockquote>
<p>I did not have luck running 2 receivers on the
same machine. Perhaps I am missing something?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>John</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 1/25/21 6:32 PM,
John Carlson wrote:</div>
<blockquote>
<p>Voila!</p>
<p>$ netstat -gn|grep tun0<br>
tun0 1 224.0.0.1<br>
tun0 1 ff02::1<br>
tun0 1 ff01::1</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Please schedule a time and add me to the
participants list so we can test the multicast
(2 receivers, one sender).</p>
<p>I will test to see if I can run 2 receivers
on one host,with 224.0.0.1</p>
<p>John</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 1/25/21 6:27 PM,
John Carlson wrote:</div>
<blockquote>
<p>netstat -g looks useful for determining
multicast addresses.</p>
<p>John</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 1/25/21 6:11
PM, John Carlson wrote:</div>
<blockquote>
<p>I figured out how to translate into
English!</p>
<p> </p>
<p>John</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 1/25/21 6:08
PM, John Carlson wrote:</div>
<blockquote>
<p>Ah, no VPN required!</p>
<p> </p>
<p>John</p>
<p> </p>
<p>On 1/25/21 5:33 PM, John Carlson wrote:</p>
<blockquote>
<p>Okay, so I have to schedule on a
calender when to use VPN, but first I
have to get on VPN</p>
<p>I got to the calendar. Is there some
way to translate to English?</p>
<p>This is the point where you steal my
files? It always seems to happen with
VPN.</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 1/25/21
5:08 PM, Christoph Valentin wrote:</div>
<blockquote>
<div style="font-family:
Verdana;font-size: 12.0px;">
<div>Hi John,</div>
<div> </div>
<div>You can access the VPN's
calendar directly at the
experimental owncloud web
interface at my vServer:</div>
<div> </div>
<div>(owncloud is a framework mainly
for file sharing, but also has
calendar and contacts via WebDav)</div>
<div> </div>
<div>URL <a
href="http://lc-soc-lc.at/owncloud"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://lc-soc-lc.at/owncloud</a></div>
<div>
<div>user name vpncal</div>
<div>password X3D4</div>
<div> </div>
<div>All the best</div>
<div>Christoph</div>
<div>
<div style="margin: 10.0px 5.0px
5.0px 10.0px;padding: 10.0px 0
10.0px 10.0px;border-left:
2.0px solid rgb(195,217,229);">
<div style="margin: 0 0 10.0px
0;"><b>Gesendet:</b> Sonntag,
24. Januar 2021 um 15:35 Uhr<br>
<b>Von:</b> "Christoph
Valentin" <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at';
return false;"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"><christoph.valentin@gmx.at></a><br>
<b>An:</b> "John Carlson" <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com';
return false;"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"><yottzumm@gmail.com></a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> "X3D Graphics
public mailing list" <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org';
return false;"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"><x3d-public@web3d.org></a><br>
<b>Betreff:</b> [x3d-public]
Fw: Tiny VPN for Use by
Web3D Community (max. 10
connections at a time)</div>
<div>
<div style="font-family:
Verdana;font-size:
12.0px;">
<div>John,</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Please <span
style="font-size:
14.0px;"><strong>expect
some maintenance
work (short
interruptions) next
week Saturday (30th
January).</strong></span></div>
<div> </div>
<div>I have now <span
style="font-size:
14.0px;"><strong>defined
an online calendar
for the VPN</strong></span>,
to avoid flooding the
mailing list.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>The calendar can be <span
style="font-size:
14.0px;"><strong>easily
integrated with the
calendar on your
Android phone</strong></span>
(see the green entry
below!!!).</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Probably it is
possible to integrate it
with any smartphone (it
uses the WebDav
standard), but I haven't
tried.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Installation
instructions:</div>
<div>1) Install DAVx5 on
your Android smartphone
(available at F-Droid)</div>
<div>2) Create new DAVx5
account <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:vpncal@lc-soc-lc.at"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:vpncal@lc-soc-lc.at';
return false;"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">"vpncal@lc-soc-lc.at"</a></div>
<div> - URL: <a
href="https://lc-soc-lc.at/owncloud/remote.php/dav/calendars/vpncal/personal/"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://lc-soc-lc.at/owncloud/remote.php/dav/calendars/vpncal/personal/</a></div>
<div> - user: vpncal</div>
<div> - pw: X3D4</div>
<div>3) Enable and trigger
the synchronization of
WebCal</div>
<div>4) Go to "Calendar"
App: make sure the
"personal" calendar is
activated for display</div>
<div> </div>
<div>The installation
instructions will be
available at <a
href="https://lc-soc-lc.at/experimental"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://lc-soc-lc.at/experimental</a>
soon.</div>
<div><img
src="cid:part16.6CD03FE9.5AA0D970@gmail.com"
class="" width="275"
height="488">
<div>
<div> </div>
<div>If you have set
the synchronization
correctly, then it
should be possible
for you to make
calendar entries,
too (e.g. test
sessions, where you
need more than 2
connections, or some
specific multicast
address).</div>
<div> </div>
<div>KR</div>
<div>Christoph</div>
<div> </div>
<div style="margin:
10.0px 5.0px 5.0px
10.0px;padding:
10.0px 0 10.0px
10.0px;border-left:
2.0px solid
rgb(195,217,229);">
<div style="margin:
0 0 10.0px 0;"><b>Gesendet:</b> Samstag,
23. Januar 2021 um
14:11 Uhr<br>
<b>Von:</b> "Christoph
Valentin" <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at';
return false;"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"><christoph.valentin@gmx.at></a><br>
<b>An:</b> "X3D
Graphics public
mailing list" <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org';
return false;"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"><x3d-public@web3d.org></a><br>
<b>Betreff:</b> [x3d-public]
Tiny VPN for Use
by Web3D Community
(max. 10
connections at a
time)</div>
<div>
<div
style="font-family:
Verdana;font-size: 12.0px;">
<div>Hi John,
Gina Lauren,
Jordi, and all
interested in
multiuser</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Being very
curious to get
to know,
whether the
"server-less
mode" could
really work, I
was thinking
about what
could I
contribute?</div>
<div> </div>
<div>I have got
this tiny
vServer at
hoststar.at
(hosted at
some cloud in
Germany),
where I could
implement a
VPN for
"server-less
experiments".</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Voilá</div>
<div> </div>
<div>So, if you
have a Windows
10 client,
then what you
can do:</div>
<div> </div>
<div>1) Install
OpenVPN
Connect
software
(community
edition) - <a
href="https://openvpn.net/community-downloads/" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://openvpn.net/community-downloads/</a><br>
<br>
2) Unzip the
config.zip
from
attachment
into
C:\Program
Files\OpenVPN\config</div>
<div> </div>
<div>3) Start
OpenVPN Client</div>
<div> </div>
<div>4) Connect</div>
<div> </div>
<div>5) Now your
client is a
multihomed
host with an
additional
network
interface at
172.27.224.0/19</div>
<div> </div>
<div>6) The
network
172.27.224.0/19
is an island.
Only people,
who receive
this e-mail,
can connect.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>What is
missing:</div>
<div> </div>
<div>a) a proof
that multicast
addresses work
on the VPN</div>
<div>b) an
online
calendar to
coordinate the
multicast
sessions at
the VPN-> I
will provide
this on
request.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>KR,</div>
<div>Christoph</div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div><br>
<br>
<br>
Gesendet: Samstag, 23. Januar 2021 um 01:34 Uhr<br>
Von: "Christoph Valentin" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at';
return false;"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><christoph.valentin@gmx.at></a><br>
An: "John
Carlson" <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com';
return false;"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><yottzumm@gmail.com></a><br>
Cc: "X3D
Graphics
public mailing
list" <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org';
return false;"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><x3d-public@web3d.org></a><br>
Betreff: Re:
[x3d-public]
X3D and VRML
for multiuser
worlds<br>
Hi John,<br>
<br>
Currently
having two
issues:<br>
<br>
1) can test
the VPN only
with two
Windows
clients ->
you have to
create your
own experience
with the Linux
client<br>
2) still have
to make the
VPN permanent
-> now the
VPN has to be
restarted
manually after
server
restart.<br>
<br>
Pls. expect
final answer
by Saturday
evening, CET.<br>
<br>
My plan:<br>
<br>
I will publish
(at a hidden
place):<br>
<br>
a) example
configuration
from Windows
OpenVPN
Connect client<br>
b) ca-yeti.crt
self-signed
root
certificate,
which you have
to trust<br>
c)
x3d-public.key
private key
for the Web3D
community (not
really
private)<br>
d)
x3d-public.crt
certificate
for the Web3D
community
(signed by
yeti -> my
server will
let you in)<br>
e) ta.key
additional
symmetric key
(must be
identical on
client and
server)<br>
<br>
Physical
restriction:
max. 10
connections at
the same time,
dynamic IP
addresses from
a private IPv4
range
(172.27.224.0/19).<br>
<br>
The VPN will
be an island -
the server
will not route
that subnet,
unless from
one client to
the others
(hopefully
including
multicast
packets - not
yet tested). <br>
<br>
KR<br>
Christoph<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Gesendet: Freitag, 22. Januar 2021 um 07:38 Uhr<br>
Von: "John
Carlson" <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com';
return false;"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><yottzumm@gmail.com></a><br>
An: "Christoph
Valentin" <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at';
return false;"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><christoph.valentin@gmx.at></a><br>
Cc: "X3D
Graphics
public mailing
list" <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org';
return false;"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><x3d-public@web3d.org></a><br>
Betreff: Re:
[x3d-public]
X3D and VRML
for multiuser
worlds<br>
I am now
prepared to
have a
"client" of
your UDP DIS
server at
hoststar.at.
I need things
like address
and port, per
X3D PDU nodes.<br>
<br>
If there is
ssh
information
for reaching
your server
network, let
me know. This
is my
preferred
method. I do
not believe I
need special
permission
except for
perhaps a new
user account.<br>
<br>
I've never
really used a
VPN, and will
probably need
instructions.
My experience
with VPN
varies "not
very useful"
and "OMG, my
friends are
going to steal
my files."<br>
<br>
John<br>
<br>
On 1/10/21
11:28 PM,
Christoph
Valentin
wrote:<br>
If everything
works fine
(and if I've
understood
correctly),
then you can
do tests with
multicast IP
transport,
although you
are
geographically
separated.<br>
<br>
That's what I
would like to
try basically<br>
<br>
--<br>
Diese
Nachricht
wurde von
meinem Android
Mobiltelefon
mit GMX Mail
gesendet.<br>
Am 11.01.21,
05:11 schrieb
John Carlson <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com';
return false;"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><yottzumm@gmail.com></a>[<a
class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com';
return false;"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com</a>]:<br>
My friends
have asked me
to set up a
VPN on my
machine in the
past. I don't
really see the
value of a
VPN. <br>
<br>
On Sun, Jan
10, 2021 at
7:03 PM
Christoph
Valentin <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at[mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at]"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at[mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at]';
return false;"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><christoph.valentin@gmx.at[mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at]></a>
wrote:<br>
<br>
What I am
going to try
is to setup a
VPN with
OpenVPN and my
vServer at
hoststar.at[<a
href="http://hoststar.at" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">http://hoststar.at</a>],
so we can do a
test session
with DIS
(hopefully).<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Gesendet: Sonntag, 10. Januar 2021 um 23:13 Uhr<br>
Von: "John
Carlson" <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com[mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com]"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com[mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com]';
return false;"
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An: "Christoph
Valentin" <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at[mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at]"
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Cc: "X3D
Graphics
public mailing
list" <a
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Betreff: Re:
[x3d-public]
X3D and VRML
for multiuser
worlds<br>
<br>
What I was
going to do is
try to get DIS
from GitHub
and DIS from
X_ITE to talk
to each other.<br>
<br>
John<br>
<br>
On Sun, Jan
10, 2021 at
1:08 PM
Christoph
Valentin <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at[mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at]"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at[mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at]';
return false;"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><christoph.valentin@gmx.at[mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at]></a>
wrote:<br>
ok<br>
<br>
let me repeat
your proposal:<br>
<br>
>>>>> Of the published work available in that regard, we
have BS
Collaborate,
DIS, and the
Draft X3D
Specification
for
NetworkSensor.
I think the
first step
would be to
take these,
see what they
have in
common, and go
from there for
deeper
analyses.<br>
<br>
I think
everybody
agrees.<br>
<br>
So what would
be the very
first step
(before the
first step)?
Assign
responsibilities?
Create a Wiki?
Ask for
official
decision? Just
do it? Who?
What? When?
Create an
official
backlog? Use
the
S&P-ARK?<br>
<br>
kind regards<br>
Christoph<br>
<br>
--<br>
Diese
Nachricht
wurde von
meinem Android
Mobiltelefon
mit GMX Mail
gesendet.<br>
<br>
Am 09.01.21,
07:40 schrieb
Christoph
Valentin <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at[mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at]"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at[mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at]';
return false;"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><christoph.valentin@gmx.at[mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at]></a>:<br>
<br>
Not much,<br>
<br>
1) It's
another use
case, which
has proven
it's
usefulness
during
SrrTrains
v0.01:<br>
-
Customized
Client Side
Calculations<br>
(
sent to
x3d-public in
January 2014:
<a
href="https://areasharpa.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/smuos_03_sema_2018_04_27.pdf"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://areasharpa.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/smuos_03_sema_2018_04_27.pdf</a>[<a
href="https://areasharpa.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/smuos_03_sema_2018_04_27.pdf"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://areasharpa.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/smuos_03_sema_2018_04_27.pdf</a>][<a
href="https://areasharpa.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/smuos_03_sema_2018_04_27.pdf"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://areasharpa.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/smuos_03_sema_2018_04_27.pdf</a>[<a
href="https://areasharpa.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/smuos_03_sema_2018_04_27.pdf"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://areasharpa.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/smuos_03_sema_2018_04_27.pdf</a>]]
)<br>
<br>
2) And an idea
(which is not
yet settled).<br>
- idea is
to have two
levels of
identification:<br>
identify the
sensor by
"streamName" +
"networkSensorId"<br>
(BS
Collaborate:
only
"streamName"<br>
Octaga: only "networkSensorId")<br>
<br>
1) the stream = the model = the real life entity
e.g. "car"<br>
2) the sensor nodes themselves
e.g. "steering", "motor", "doors"<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Gesendet: Samstag, 09. Januar 2021 um 03:59 Uhr<br>
Von: "GL" <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:info@3dnetproductions.com[mailto:info@3dnetproductions.com]"
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An: "'X3D
Graphics
public mailing
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Betreff: Re:
[x3d-public]
X3D and VRML
for multiuser
worlds<br>
<br>
I am not sure
what results
you are
referring to.
Did I miss
something?<br>
<br>
<br>
From:
x3d-public [<a
class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:x3d-public-bounces@web3d.org"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:x3d-public-bounces@web3d.org';
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On Behalf Of
Christoph
Valentin<br>
Sent: Friday,
January 8,
2021 9:21 PM<br>
To: 'X3D
Graphics
public mailing
list'<br>
Subject: Re:
[x3d-public]
Re: X3D and
VRML for
multiuser
worlds<br>
<br>
<br>
so basically
you want to
ignore my
results?<br>
<br>
--<br>
Diese
Nachricht
wurde von
meinem Android
Mobiltelefon
mit GMX Mail
gesendet.<br>
<br>
Am 09.01.21,
01:07 schrieb
GL <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:info@3dnetproductions.com[mailto:info@3dnetproductions.com]"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:info@3dnetproductions.com[mailto:info@3dnetproductions.com]';
return false;"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><info@3dnetproductions.com[mailto:info@3dnetproductions.com]></a>:<br>
Christoph,<br>
<br>
Thank you for
the
clarifications
and your
general
dedication. I
believe that
little
misunderstandings
should be
addressed
before they
snowball into
bigger
misconceptions.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
> If we
specify a
general
Network Sensor
API, then
content can
run<br>
> with any
X3D Player
that supports
the Network
Sensor API.<br>
<br>
If you read
again my last
paragraph, I
try to make a
distinction
between a
multiuser
client and a
X3D player. In
other words,
the player is
not
necessarily
the client. It
appears to be
a common
misconception
that the X3D
player must
also be the MU
client, while
in truth it
really doesn't
have to. For
the reasons
previously
stated, I tend
to prefer that
the player
does not in
fact act as
the client.<br>
<br>
<br>
> However,
if I use the
X3Daemon
Client API,
then I MUST
use the
X3Daemon<br>
> Server,
because the
protocol is
proprietary.<br>
<br>
<br>
That is
precisely why
I am here. I
do NOT want
the
application
protocol to be
proprietary.
And the fact
that we still
don't have a
standard keeps
me from moving
forward,
because any
development
efforts I make
may someday
have to be
rewritten once
we do have a
standard. IOW,
I am not a big
fan of
reworking
systems. I'd
rather use
open standards
as early in
the process as
possible to
facilitate
interoperability
later.<br>
<br>
<br>
> If the
protocol was
specified,
then I could
use ANY<br>
> server
with the
X3Daemon
Client.<br>
<br>
<br>
Ideally,
systems could
interoperate,
though there
are other
factors to
consider. For
example
avatars must
login to
authenticate
their identity
and assets,
consisting of
information
that may or
may not be
available to a
third party
server. But
yes, you get
the general
idea.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
> It is not
sufficient to
specify the<br>
> fields
and the
behaviour of
the
NetworkSensor
node. ...,<br>
> but I had
the feeling
that you want
to<br>
> omit the
specification
of the
protocol.<br>
<br>
<br>
Read again, I
was referring
specifically
to network
protocols.
Still, at this
early stage, I
feel it may be
a little
premature to
get too
involved with
an application
protocol, that
until we get a
better grasp
of what the
requirements
will be. For
this reason, I
am of the
opinion that
fields and
events should
be specified
first. Just so
that we have
something to
build upon.<br>
<br>
Of the
published work
available in
that regard,
we have BS
Collaborate,
DIS, and the
Draft X3D
Specification
for
NetworkSensor.
I think the
first step
would be to
take these,
see what they
have in
common, and go
from there for
deeper
analyses.<br>
<br>
Once we have
that settled,
IMO, only then
should we turn
to discuss an
application
layer protocol
and its
ramifications.
GL<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
>
-----Original
Message-----<br>
> From:
x3d-public [<a
class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:x3d-public-bounces@web3d.org"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:x3d-public-bounces@web3d.org';
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target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:x3d-public-bounces@web3d.org</a>[<a
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return false;"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:x3d-public-bounces@web3d.org</a>]]
On Behalf Of<br>
> Christoph
Valentin<br>
> Sent:
Friday,
January 8,
2021 5:09 PM<br>
> To: X3D
Graphics
public mailing
list<br>
> Subject:
Re:
[x3d-public]
X3D and VRML
for multiuser
worlds<br>
><br>
> Dear Gina
Lauren<br>
><br>
> Please
find some feed
back *inline*.<br>
><br>
>
Generally,
please do not
judge too
hard, I'm not
a native
speaker and
still<br>
> some of
my wordings do
not fit to the
real
intention.<br>
><br>
> Kind
regards,<br>
> Christoph<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
> >You
want to lock
in your users.
That's not the
spirit of open
source.<br>
><br>
> For once
I was
beginning to
open up about
the inner
workings of a
multiuser<br>
> system,
but
surprisingly,
you apparently
don't want to
hear about it.
It is<br>
> difficult
to talk about
open standards
for a NSN if
we can't refer
to<br>
> actual
implementations.
It's not like
there are a
lot of them
around..<br>
> [CV]: I
should not
have written
this. However,
I was a little
bit<br>
>
impatient,
because I have
been preaching
for years and
years that the<br>
> protocol
itself must be
specified. It
is not
sufficient to
specify the<br>
> fields
and the
behaviour of
the
NetworkSensor
node. Maybe I
did not read<br>
> your
words
sufficiently
thoroughly,
but I had the
feeling that
you want to<br>
> omit the
specification
of the
protocol.<br>
><br>
> Also, who
said anything
about open
source being a
requirement? I
was<br>
> actually
volunteering
closed source
information
for the
benefit of an
open<br>
> standard.
If you can't
see that I was
actually
"giving"
something to
the<br>
>
community..
then perhaps I
am wasting my
time???<br>
> [CV]:
Here I used
"open source"
and meant
"open
protocols",
sorry, my<br>
> mistake.
And, yes, I
also "gave" a
lot. Using too
much time for
my hobbies,<br>
> was one
major reason,
why my wife
left us in
2015
(afterwards
the SrrTrains<br>
> v0.01
project fell
into
hibernation
mode due to
lack of
resources).<br>
><br>
> Finally,
if you would
like to
discuss an
application
layer
protocol,
maybe<br>
> look into
work that has
been done in
the past
referred to as
vrtp and x3dp.<br>
> Not much,
but a starting
point. So far
I have only
heard vague
comments<br>
> about
SCTP, UDP,
etc. (see
below)<br>
> [CV]: I
am sure that
many people
have
contributed
many parts of
the puzzle.<br>
> Now we
need somebody,
who fits all
together
(that's not
me, is it?)<br>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
> >
[CV]: I never
suggested to
specifiy the
transport
protocol
(http, rtp,<br>
> >
sctp, tcp,
msrp, sip,
xmpp,
........).<br>
><br>
> hhhmmm..
I'm confused,
what is this
about???<br>
> [CV]:
Let's assume,
we specify an
"Application
Layer
Protocol"
(let's call<br>
> it ALP in
the sense of a
"working
title").
Probably the
ALP will
consist of<br>
> the
definition of
a few PDUs
(e.g. in XML,
JSON, YAML or
similar
syntax).<br>
> Now we
have to
define, how
the PDUs have
to be
transmitted
over the<br>
> network.
Will they be
sent as
payload in
http messages
(in the body)?
Will<br>
> they be
sent as
payload in SIP
messages (in
the body)?
Will they be
sent<br>
> directly
over tcp
connections?<br>
> To get
historically:
at the
beginning of
the IETF they
had a great<br>
> movement.
You could get
T-Shirts with
the meme "IP
over
everything".
IP<br>
> should
connect any
network with
any network,
building the
Inter-network.
So<br>
> they had
to write one
RFC for each
L2 protocol in
order to
specify, how
IP<br>
> has to be
transported
over any L2
link/network.<br>
> I am
dreaming of an
"ALP over
everything"
movement.<br>
><br>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
> >[CV]:
SCTP and UDP
are members of
the TCP/IP
protocol
family. UDP is
as<br>
> >old
as TCP, just
simpler. SCTP
is younger. It
tries to merge
advantages<br>
> >of
both TCP and
UDP and was
originally
invented to
transport SS7
protocols<br>
>
>(SIGTRAN).
SCTP supports
64k streams
per
association,
what perfectly
fits<br>
> >to
our needs,
imho<br>
><br>
> Why are
you trying to
lecture me
about network
protocols? And
what is it<br>
> exactly
that you are
saying or not
saying, I find
rather
perplexing and<br>
> fail to
see the
relevancy.
Let's keep
going...<br>
> [CV]: I
thought you
wrote "SCTP is
not TCP/IP". I
want to stress
that SCTP<br>
> actually
IS TCP/IP<br>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
> >[CV]:
Actually I
suggested to
specifiy ONE
AND ONLY ONE
application
layer<br>
> protocol,<br>
><br>
> No-one is
questioning
this as far as
I know. Isn't
that precisely
what we<br>
> are
trying to do?<br>
> Why are
you augmenting
this in my
comments?<br>
><br>
> [CV]:
(see above)
Maybe I did
not read your
words
sufficiently
thoroughly,<br>
> but I had
the feeling
that you want
to omit the
specification
of the<br>
> protocol.<br>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
> >[CV]:
The API (i.e
Network
Sensor) must
be specified
to run ONE
content<br>
> with ANY
X3D Player.<br>
><br>
> Let's be
careful here.
The X3D player
does not
necessarily
need to have<br>
> agency
over the
application
protocol. For
example the
X3Daemon
client<br>
> (sorry to
bring it up)
is entirely
separate from
the player
other than for<br>
>
interpreting
ECMAScripts
and rendering
the results to
screen. IOW,
the<br>
> X3Daemon
client can
theoretically
run in any X3D
player,
regardless of<br>
> internal
multiuser
coding, as
long as
ECMAScript
(JavaScript)
is supported.<br>
> This
makes it very
easy for
authors to
script avatar
and object
behaviors,<br>
> since it
provides
direct access
to X3D nodes.
It is also a
reason why we<br>
> need to
define a
NetworkSensor
node as part
of the X3D
standard.<br>
> [CV]:
That's exactly
what I am
saying: you
specified your
X3Daemon
client<br>
> API, so a
content that
uses that API,
can
theoretically
run with ANY
X3D<br>
> Player
(that the
X3Daemon
client
supports). If
we specify a
general
Network<br>
> Sensor
API, then
content can
run with any
X3D Player
that supports
the<br>
> Network
Sensor API.<br>
> However,
if I use the
X3Daemon
Client API,
then I MUST
use the
X3Daemon<br>
> Server,
because the
protocol is
proprietary.
If the
protocol was
specified,<br>
> then I
could use ANY
server with
the X3Daemon
Client. It's
similar with
BS<br>
> Contact
and BS
Collaborate.<br>
> Most
customers are
very sensitive
about getting
locked in. No
matter if<br>
> open
source or
closed source.
We (my
employer) made
this
experience
with<br>
> railway
operators,
too.<br>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
><br>
><br>
> GL<br>
><br>
>
________________________________________________________<br>
> * * *
Interactive
Multimedia -
Internet
Management * *
*<br>
> * *
Virtual
Reality --
Application
Programming *
*<br>
> * 3D Net
Productions
3dnetproductions.com[<a
href="http://3dnetproductions.com" target="_blank"
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href="http://3dnetproductions.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://3dnetproductions.com</a>]]
*<br>
><br>
><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
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href="http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org_______________________________________________"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org_______________________________________________</a>[<a
href="http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org_______________________________________________"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org_______________________________________________</a>]
x3d-public
mailing list <a
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org';
return false;"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">x3d-public@web3d.org</a>[<a
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org';
return false;"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org</a>]
<a
href="http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org_______________________________________________"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org_______________________________________________</a>[<a
href="http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org_______________________________________________"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org_______________________________________________</a>]<br>
x3d-public
mailing list<br>
<a
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org';
return false;"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">x3d-public@web3d.org</a>[<a
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org';
return false;"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org</a>]<br>
<a
href="http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org</a>[<a
href="http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org</a>]<br>
<br>
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x3d-public
mailing list<br>
<a
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org';
return false;"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">x3d-public@web3d.org</a><br>
<a
href="http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org</a>[<a
href="http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org</a>]</div>
</div>
_______________________________________________ x3d-public mailing list
<a
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org';
return false;"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">x3d-public@web3d.org</a> <a
href="http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org</a></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
_______________________________________________ x3d-public mailing list
<a
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org';
return false;"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">x3d-public@web3d.org</a>
<a
href="http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org</a></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
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