<div dir="auto">Does metadata include annotations?</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Thanks!</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">John </div><div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Nov 23, 2021 at 10:59 AM Jakub Flotyński <<a href="mailto:flotynski@kti.ue.poznan.pl">flotynski@kti.ue.poznan.pl</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)">
  
    
  
  <div>
    <p>Hi All,</p>
    <p>we had a short discussion with Don about the transformation of
      different XMP nodes and attributes to RDF. A general idea is to
      have an overview of the XMP specification available at:</p>
    <p><a href="https://wwwimages2.adobe.com/content/dam/acom/en/devnet/xmp/pdfs/XMP%20SDK%20Release%20cc-2016-08/XMPSpecificationPart1.pdf" target="_blank">https://wwwimages2.adobe.com/content/dam/acom/en/devnet/xmp/pdfs/XMP%20SDK%20Release%20cc-2016-08/XMPSpecificationPart1.pdf</a></p>
    <p>and determine groups of XMP nodes and attributes that would
      require different transformation to RDF nodes and attributes. In
      such a case, we could have a pretty uniform approach to various
      metadata entities, while maintaining possibility to extend the
      transformation with new nodes and attributes.</p>
    <p>Best regards<br>
      Jakub<br>
    </p>
    <p><br>
    </p>
    <div>W dniu 19.11.2021 o 11:03, Brutzman,
      Donald (Don) (CIV) pisze:<br>
    </div></div><div>
    <blockquote type="cite">
      
      
      
      <div>
        <p class="MsoNormal">We had a useful discussion about xml:lang
          in Thursday weekly CAD DPS call, had similar thinking going
          on.<u></u><u></u></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal">I will be confirming with Jakub next week
          (using our XMP test model) whether  <MetatadaString
          name=”xml:lang” value=”EN”/> is always preferable to
          attribute xml:lang=’EN’ because it is portable across all
          varieties of X3D.<u></u><u></u></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal">Whether or not to include attribute
          xml:lang=’EN’ in DOCTYPE/Schema: either add it everywhere
          since it is legal XML, or else not at all so that validation
          warnings are indeed thrown (since it is likely not the
          recommended approach).<u></u><u></u></p>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span>all the best, Don<u></u><u></u></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span>-- <u></u>
              <u></u></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span>Don Brutzman  Naval Postgraduate School, Code
              USW/Br        <a href="mailto:brutzman@nps.edu" target="_blank">brutzman@nps.edu</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span>Watkins 270,  MOVES Institute, Monterey CA
              93943-5000 USA    +1.831.656.2149<u></u><u></u></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span>X3D graphics, virtual worlds, navy robotics
              https://</span>
            <span><a href="http://faculty.nps.edu/brutzman" target="_blank">faculty.nps.edu/brutzman</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
        <div>
          <div style="border-style:solid none none;border-top-width:1pt;padding:3pt 0in 0in;border-top-color:rgb(225,225,225)">
            <p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> John Carlson
              <a href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com" target="_blank"><yottzumm@gmail.com></a> <br>
              <b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, November 17, 2021 5:58 PM<br>
              <b>To:</b> Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV)
              <a href="mailto:brutzman@nps.edu" target="_blank"><brutzman@nps.edu></a><br>
              <b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:vmarchetti@kshell.com" target="_blank">vmarchetti@kshell.com</a>; X3D-Public
              <a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org" target="_blank"><x3d-public@web3d.org></a>; Jakub Flotyński
              <a href="mailto:flotynski@kti.ue.poznan.pl" target="_blank"><flotynski@kti.ue.poznan.pl></a><br>
              <b>Subject:</b> Re: [x3d-public] xml:lang language
              identification<u></u><u></u></p>
          </div>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal">I suggest getting xml:lang into X3DUOM
            before JSON Schema, but we can do some hard coding into the
            schema generator if pretesting is desired.   An example JSON
            schema snippet would be required.
            <u></u><u></u></p>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal">Also consider “subclassing” xml:lang
              for our own purposes, including supporting locales in
              MFStrings perhaps.<u></u><u></u></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt">I think
              full testing of existing JSON schema in python,Java, and
              JavaScript would be desired before proceeding.<u></u><u></u></p>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal">Sent from my iPad<u></u><u></u></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><br>
                <br>
                <u></u><u></u></p>
              <blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
                <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt">On Nov
                  17, 2021, at 9:12 AM, Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV)
                  <<a href="mailto:brutzman@nps.edu" target="_blank">brutzman@nps.edu</a>>
                  wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
              </blockquote>
            </div>
            <blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal">Thanks for review comments.<u></u><u></u></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal">I agree that using MetadataString
                  for xml:lang definitions is a good approach for
                  portable X3D mappings within MetadataSet collections. 
                  Indeed that was the original approach we tried in the
                  XMP mapping.  Further scrutiny will be needed to see
                  if it can support multiple xml:lang definitions for a
                  given value, that might be a separate design pattern. 
                  Jakub and I will continue to look closely at this.<u></u><u></u></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal">Meanwhile, the xml:lang attribute
                  is allowed by XML.  Thus am still looking to add it to
                  X3D XML Schema and DOCTYPE (and possibly X3D JSON
                  schema) as an attribute allowed during XML validation,
                  at least for the handful of X3D use cases where it
                  might make sense.  Flagging presence of xml:lang
                  values as erroneous would be a “false negative,”
                  meaning an incorrect error diagnostic.<u></u><u></u></p>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span>all the best, Don</span><u></u><u></u></p>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span>-- </span>
                    <u></u><u></u></p>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span>Don Brutzman  Naval Postgraduate
                      School, Code USW/Br       
                      <a href="mailto:brutzman@nps.edu" target="_blank">brutzman@nps.edu</a></span><u></u><u></u></p>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span>Watkins 270,  MOVES Institute, Monterey
                      CA 93943-5000 USA    +1.831.656.2149</span><u></u><u></u></p>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span>X3D graphics, virtual worlds, navy
                      robotics https://</span>
                    <span><a href="http://faculty.nps.edu/brutzman" target="_blank">faculty.nps.edu/brutzman</a></span><u></u><u></u></p>
                </div>
                <p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
                <div>
                  <div style="border-style:solid none none;border-top-width:1pt;padding:3pt 0in 0in;border-top-color:rgb(225,225,225)">
                    <p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> x3d-public <<a href="mailto:x3d-public-bounces@web3d.org" target="_blank">x3d-public-bounces@web3d.org</a>>
                      <b>On Behalf Of </b>John Carlson<br>
                      <b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, November 17, 2021 6:53 AM<br>
                      <b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:vmarchetti@kshell.com" target="_blank">vmarchetti@kshell.com</a><br>
                      <b>Cc:</b> X3D-Public <<a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org" target="_blank">x3d-public@web3d.org</a>><br>
                      <b>Subject:</b> Re: [x3d-public] xml:lang language
                      identification<u></u><u></u></p>
                  </div>
                </div>
                <p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal">Thanks, Vince.   That’s pretty much
                  what I wanted to say.  I don’t know if schemas can
                  apply xml:lang to an attribute in all XML documents
                  guided by the schema.   I don’t think that would make
                  sense.   I am not arguing a position, because I have
                  not studied.<u></u><u></u></p>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal">I’ve had problems with namespaced
                    attribute names in the past.   I suggest we go
                    through a thorough test after any updates to X3DUOM.<u></u><u></u></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal">John<u></u><u></u></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal">Sent from my iPad<u></u><u></u></p>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"><br>
                      <br>
                      <br>
                      <u></u><u></u></p>
                    <blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
                      <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt">On
                        Nov 16, 2021, at 6:24 PM, <a href="mailto:vmarchetti@kshell.com" target="_blank">
                          vmarchetti@kshell.com</a> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
                    </blockquote>
                  </div>
                  <blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><u></u><u></u></p>
                      <div>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"><br>
                          <br>
                          <br>
                          <u></u><u></u></p>
                        <blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal">On Nov 16, 2021, at
                              6:00 PM, Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <<a href="mailto:brutzman@nps.edu" target="_blank">brutzman@nps.edu</a>>
                              wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
                          </div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
                          <div>
                            <div>
                              <p class="MsoNormal">XML allows
                                identification of language via the
                                reserved xml:lang attribute on any
                                attribute.<u></u><u></u></p>
                            </div>
                            <div>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
                            </div>
                            <ul style="margin-top:0in" type="disc">
                              <li style="margin-top:0in;margin-bottom:0in">
                                XML Recommendation, fifth edition, W3C,
                                section2.12 Language Identification<u></u><u></u></li>
                              <li style="margin-top:0in;margin-bottom:0in">
                                <a href="https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2FTR%2FREC-xml%2F%23sec-lang-tag&data=04%7C01%7Cbrutzman%40nps.edu%7Cf00b9ee0286d48ac185b08d9aa36d5e5%7C6d936231a51740ea9199f7578963378e%7C0%7C0%7C637727974775285410%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=5LMyZFoPQ4PUc356h2V2a0%2BSF2bH2ZiYrcsBz5wCOI4%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank"><span style="color:rgb(5,99,193)">https://www.w3.org/TR/REC-xml/#sec-lang-tag</span></a><u></u><u></u></li>
                            </ul>
                            <div>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
                            </div>
                            <div>
                              <p class="MsoNormal">and<u></u><u></u></p>
                            </div>
                            <div>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
                            </div>
                            <ul style="margin-top:0in" type="disc">
                              <li style="margin-top:0in;margin-bottom:0in">
                                W3C XML Schema Definition Language (XSD)
                                1.1 Part 2: Datatypes, W3C
                                Recommendation 5 April 2012 section
                                3.4.3 language<u></u><u></u></li>
                              <li style="margin-top:0in;margin-bottom:0in">
                                <a href="https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2FTR%2Fxmlschema11-2%2F%23language&data=04%7C01%7Cbrutzman%40nps.edu%7Cf00b9ee0286d48ac185b08d9aa36d5e5%7C6d936231a51740ea9199f7578963378e%7C0%7C0%7C637727974775285410%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=hgGRY7kcWRLqBp0dH%2FjaABaGMZoC%2B8kHxdHP3cxUnoo%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank"><span style="color:rgb(5,99,193)">https://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema11-2/#language</span></a><u></u><u></u></li>
                            </ul>
                          </div>
                        </blockquote>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal">These excerpts from the
                            XML documents assert that the xml:lang
                            attribute is not as granular as applying to
                            individual attributes, but applies at<u></u><u></u></p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal">the XML element level,
                            and so to all the attributes and subelements
                            , with some clear rules for overriding the
                            xml:lang attribute in sub-elements.<u></u><u></u></p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal">With that in mind, I
                            think that the function of the xml:lang
                            attribute can, in the X3D abstract
                            specification, be performed by a
                            MetadataString node which can be applied to
                            any X3D node, including<u></u><u></u></p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal">other Metadata nodes. The
                            advantage of this approach would be that the
                            language attribution can be readily
                            transferred between different encodings of
                            the same X3D content.<u></u><u></u></p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
                        </div>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"><br>
                          <br>
                          <br>
                          <u></u><u></u></p>
                        <blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
                          <div>
                            <div>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
                            </div>
                            <div>
                              <p class="MsoNormal">Today while working
                                on XMP metadata transcription from
                                RDF/XML (or TTL) form into X3D/XML form,
                                Jakub and I found that we needed to
                                utilize xml:lang attribute for lossless
                                two-way conversion.<u></u><u></u></p>
                            </div>
                            <div>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
                            </div>
                            <div>
                              <p class="MsoNormal">I can think of the
                                following X3D elements that might need
                                to indicate which identification of
                                human language might be appropriate:<u></u><u></u></p>
                            </div>
                            <ul style="margin-top:0in" type="disc">
                              <li style="margin-top:0in;margin-bottom:0in">
                                Text node (corresponding to ‘string’
                                field)<u></u><u></u></li>
                              <li style="margin-top:0in;margin-bottom:0in">
                                MetadataString<u></u><u></u></li>
                              <li style="margin-top:0in;margin-bottom:0in">
                                <field> and <fieldValue>
                                declarations, if type is
                                SFString/MFString<u></u><u></u></li>
                            </ul>
                            <div>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
                            </div>
                            <div>
                              <p class="MsoNormal">Conceivably we might
                                also permit this whenever a description
                                field is present also (Viewpoint,
                                sensors, etc.).<u></u><u></u></p>
                            </div>
                            <div>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
                            </div>
                            <div>
                              <p class="MsoNormal">Not looking to change
                                X3D expressive power but think that
                                xml:lang information ought to be
                                permissible in X3D XML encoding since it
                                is an allowed part of XML.<u></u><u></u></p>
                            </div>
                            <div>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
                            </div>
                            <div>
                              <p class="MsoNormal">Thus am planning to
                                add xml:lang as indicated above in the
                                X3D XML Schema and X3D XML DOCTYPE to
                                avoid incorrect, misleading validation
                                errors.<u></u><u></u></p>
                            </div>
                            <div>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
                            </div>
                            <div>
                              <p class="MsoNormal">Any other
                                considerations appropriate?  Will enter
                                Mantis issue when ready to proceed.  All
                                comments welcome.<u></u><u></u></p>
                            </div>
                            <div>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
                            </div>
                            <div>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"><span>all the best, Don</span><u></u><u></u></p>
                            </div>
                            <div>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"><span>--<span> </span></span><u></u><u></u></p>
                            </div>
                            <div>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"><span>Don Brutzman  Naval
                                  Postgraduate School, Code
                                  USW/Br       <span> </span><a href="mailto:brutzman@nps.edu" target="_blank"><span style="color:rgb(5,99,193)">brutzman@nps.edu</span></a></span><u></u><u></u></p>
                            </div>
                            <div>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"><span>Watkins 270,  MOVES
                                  Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000
                                  USA    +1.831.656.2149</span><u></u><u></u></p>
                            </div>
                            <div>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"><span>X3D graphics, virtual
                                  worlds, navy robotics https://</span><span> </span><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New""><a href="http://faculty.nps.edu/brutzman" target="_blank" style="font-family:"Courier New""><span style="font-family:"Courier New";color:rgb(5,99,193)">faculty.nps.edu/brutzman</span></a></span><u></u><u></u></p>
                            </div>
                            <div>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
                            </div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Monaco">_______________________________________________<br>
                                x3d-public mailing list<br>
                              </span><a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Monaco;color:rgb(5,99,193)">x3d-public@web3d.org</span></a><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Monaco"><br>
                              </span><a href="http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Monaco;color:rgb(5,99,193)">http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org</span></a><u></u><u></u></p>
                          </div>
                        </blockquote>
                      </div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><br>
                        _______________________________________________<br>
                        x3d-public mailing list<br>
                        <a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org" target="_blank">x3d-public@web3d.org</a><br>
                        <a href="http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org" target="_blank">http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org</a><u></u><u></u></p>
                    </div>
                  </blockquote>
                </div>
              </div>
            </blockquote>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    </div><div><pre cols="72" style="font-family:monospace">-- 
dr inż. Jakub Flotyński, prof. UEP
Katedra Technologii Informacyjnych
Uniwersytet Ekonomiczny w Poznaniu

Department of Information Technology
Poznań University of Economics and Business
<a href="https://www.google.com/maps/search/al.+Niepodleg%C5%82o%C5%9Bci+10,+61-875+Pozna%C5%84?entry=gmail&source=g" style="font-family:monospace">al. Niepodległości 10, 61-875 Poznań</a>
tel./fax: (+48)(61)639-2758
e-mail: <a href="mailto:flotynski@kti.ue.poznan.pl" target="_blank" style="font-family:monospace">flotynski@kti.ue.poznan.pl</a>
<a href="http://www.kti.ue.poznan.pl/flotynski" target="_blank" style="font-family:monospace">http://www.kti.ue.poznan.pl/flotynski</a></pre>
  <div><br></div><div>

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