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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple style='word-wrap:break-word'><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal>Thanks for catching this important point.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>We refined the words for Prototype to be more closely similar to Inline in this regard. Hope it now looks OK.<o:p></o:p></p><div style='mso-element:para-border-div;border:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 1.0pt 0in'><p class=MsoNormal style='border:none;padding:0in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><ul style='margin-top:0in' type=disc><li class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo6'>X3D4 Architecture, Networking component, Inline<o:p></o:p></li><li class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo6'>https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4Draft/ISO-IEC19775-1v4-CD1/Part01/components/networking.html#Inline<o:p></o:p></li></ul><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Security precaution: it is an error for a model to Inline itself, directly or indirectly, in order to avoid nonterminating recursion loops. X3D <span class=proposed>browsers</span> SHALL NOT honor self-referential loading of <span class=proposed><span style='background:yellow;mso-highlight:yellow'>Inline</span></span> model loops in order to avoid security vulnerabilities.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><ul style='margin-top:0in' type=disc><li class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo6'>X3D4 Architecture, Concepts, 4.4.4.3 PROTO definition semantics<o:p></o:p></li><li class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo6'>https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4Draft/ISO-IEC19775-1v4-CD1/Part01/concepts.html#PROTOdefinitionsemantics<o:p></o:p></li></ul><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span class=proposed><span style='background:yellow;mso-highlight:yellow'>Security precaution: it is an error for a prototype to reference an instance or repeated declaration of itself, directly or indirectly, in order to avoid nonterminating recursion loops. This error might occur with either local or external (PROTO or EXTERNPROTO) declarations. X3D browsers shall not honor self-referential loading of prototype declaration loops in order to avoid security vulnerabilities.</span></span><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span style='font-size:13.5pt'>4.4.4.4 Prototype scoping rules<o:p></o:p></span></b></p><div style='mso-element:para-border-div;border:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 1.0pt 0in'><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;border:none;padding:0in'><span style='background:yellow;mso-highlight:yellow'>A prototype may be instantiated in a file anywhere after the completion of the prototype definition.</span> Prototype definitions appearing inside a prototype definition (<i>i.e.</i>, nested) <span style='background:yellow;mso-highlight:yellow'>have scope</span> local to the enclosing prototype. IS statements inside a nested prototype's implementation may refer to the prototype declarations of the innermost prototype.<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>FYI there is yet another self-referential indirect-recursion case: proto which loads Inline which subsequently loads same proto which reloads the same Inline which reloads… We declined to add another rule as unnecessary, since either loop-breaking rule would forbid such behavior at run time.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Have fun with X3D! Have fun with X3D! Have fun … OK will stop now. 8)<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>all the best, Don<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>-- <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>Don Brutzman Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br brutzman@nps.edu<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>Watkins 270, MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA +1.831.656.2149<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>X3D graphics, virtual worlds, Navy robotics https://</span> <span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>faculty.nps.edu/brutzman<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b>From:</b> Andreas Plesch <andreasplesch@gmail.com> <br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, April 28, 2022 7:23 PM<br><b>To:</b> Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <brutzman@nps.edu><br><b>Cc:</b> GPU Group <gpugroup@gmail.com>; X3D Graphics public mailing list <x3d-public@web3d.org>; Richard F. Puk (puk@igraphics.com) <puk@igraphics.com><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [x3d-public] ProtoBody completeness in nested Protos<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div style='border:solid #004679 1.0pt;padding:2.0pt 2.0pt 2.0pt 2.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='line-height:12.0pt;background:#004679'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:yellow'>NPS WARNING: *external sender* verify before acting.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Thanks much for the review and revision effort.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>The recursive case brings up circular dependencies. Proto A may use an instance of Proto B, but Proto B in turn may use an instance of Proto A unless some initial condition occurs, so that in theory a result can be resolved.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>The recursive clause in a way covers this in my view but perhaps circular definitions could be made explicitly illegal.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Just a thought,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Andreas<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>---on the phone---<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Thu, Apr 28, 2022, 8:45 PM Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <<a href="mailto:brutzman@nps.edu">brutzman@nps.edu</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>We reviewed closely. Prose definitions are correct. Slight editorial changes (essentially re-ordering sentences) hopefully make things clearer.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><ul type=disc><li class=m2634123305886060252msolistparagraph style='mso-list:l5 level1 lfo1'>Mantis 1395: improve clarity of prototype scoping rules<o:p></o:p></li><li class=m2634123305886060252msolistparagraph style='mso-list:l5 level1 lfo1'><a href="https://www.web3d.org/member-only/mantis/view.php?id=1395" target="_blank">https://www.web3d.org/member-only/mantis/view.php?id=1395</a><o:p></o:p></li></ul><ul type=disc><li class=m2634123305886060252msolistparagraph style='mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2'>- <o:p></o:p></li></ul><ul type=disc><li class=m2634123305886060252msolistparagraph style='mso-list:l2 level1 lfo3'>4.4.4.4 Prototype scoping rules<o:p></o:p></li><li class=m2634123305886060252msolistparagraph style='mso-list:l2 level1 lfo3'><a href="https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4Draft/ISO-IEC19775-1v4-CD1/Part01/concepts.html#Prototypescopingrules" target="_blank">https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4Draft/ISO-IEC19775-1v4-CD1/Part01/concepts.html#Prototypescopingrules</a><o:p></o:p></li></ul><ul type=disc><li class=m2634123305886060252msolistparagraph style='mso-list:l4 level1 lfo4'>-<o:p></o:p></li></ul><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.25in'><span class=m2634123305886060252proposed>A prototype may be instantiated in a file anywhere after the completion of the prototype definition.</span> Prototype definitions appearing inside a prototype definition (<i>i.e.</i>, nested) <span class=m2634123305886060252proposed>have scope</span> local to the enclosing prototype. IS statements inside a nested prototype's implementation may refer to the prototype declarations of the innermost prototype. <span class=m2634123305886060252proposed>A prototype may not be instantiated inside its own implementation <i>(i.e.</i>, recursive prototypes are illegal).</span> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.25in'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.25in'>A PROTO statement establishes a DEF/USE name scope separate from the rest of the scene and separate from any nested PROTO statements. Nodes given a name by a DEF construct inside the prototype may not be referenced in a USE construct outside of the prototype's scope. Nodes given a name by a DEF construct outside the prototype scope may not be referenced in a USE construct inside the prototype scope.<o:p></o:p></p><ul type=disc><li class=m2634123305886060252msolistparagraph style='mso-list:l3 level1 lfo5'>- <o:p></o:p></li></ul><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Again thanks for all efforts to make the X3D4 specification clear and consistently repeatable.<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>all the best, Don</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>-- </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>Don Brutzman Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br <a href="mailto:brutzman@nps.edu" target="_blank">brutzman@nps.edu</a></span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>Watkins 270, MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA +1.831.656.2149</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>X3D graphics, virtual worlds, Navy robotics https://</span> <span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'><a href="http://faculty.nps.edu/brutzman" target="_blank">faculty.nps.edu/brutzman</a></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b>From:</b> Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <<a href="mailto:brutzman@nps.edu" target="_blank">brutzman@nps.edu</a>> <br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, April 27, 2022 9:23 PM<br><b>To:</b> GPU Group <<a href="mailto:gpugroup@gmail.com" target="_blank">gpugroup@gmail.com</a>>; Andreas Plesch <<a href="mailto:andreasplesch@gmail.com" target="_blank">andreasplesch@gmail.com</a>>; Richard F. Puk (<a href="mailto:puk@igraphics.com" target="_blank">puk@igraphics.com</a>) <<a href="mailto:puk@igraphics.com" target="_blank">puk@igraphics.com</a>><br><b>Cc:</b> X3D Graphics public mailing list <<a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org" target="_blank">x3d-public@web3d.org</a>>; Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <<a href="mailto:brutzman@nps.edu" target="_blank">brutzman@nps.edu</a>><br><b>Subject:</b> RE: [x3d-public] ProtoBody completeness in nested Protos<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Thanks for your precision and thoroughness Doug.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Seems clear and unambiguous that it is scoped, as previously described. We’ll double check on phraseology.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Dick can we please discuss in tomorrow’s meeting, TIA.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>all the best, Don</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>-- </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>Don Brutzman Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br <a href="mailto:brutzman@nps.edu" target="_blank">brutzman@nps.edu</a></span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>Watkins 270, MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA +1.831.656.2149</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>X3D graphics, virtual worlds, Navy robotics https://</span> <span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'><a href="http://faculty.nps.edu/brutzman" target="_blank">faculty.nps.edu/brutzman</a></span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b>From:</b> x3d-public <<a href="mailto:x3d-public-bounces@web3d.org" target="_blank">x3d-public-bounces@web3d.org</a>> <b>On Behalf Of </b>GPU Group<br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, April 26, 2022 9:57 AM<br><b>To:</b> X3D Graphics public mailing list <<a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org" target="_blank">x3d-public@web3d.org</a>><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [x3d-public] ProtoBody completeness in nested Protos<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><div><div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><a href="https://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19775-1/V4.0/Part01/concepts.html#Prototypescopingrules" target="_blank">https://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19775-1/V4.0/Part01/concepts.html#Prototypescopingrules</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>"A prototype may be instantiated in a file anywhere after the completion of the prototype definition."<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>If the specs meant what you are suggesting --protos are self contained including proto definitions-- then it would have said "context" rather than "file"<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>"Prototype definitions appearing inside a prototype definition ( i.e., nested) are local to the enclosing prototype. "<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>- refinement of the above file order rule.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>On Tue, Apr 26, 2022 at 9:51 AM GPU Group <<a href="mailto:gpugroup@gmail.com" target="_blank">gpugroup@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>"I really do<br>not think that proto declarations should be required to inherit<br>existing declarations from parent execution contexts"<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>If C++ required each class definition to be self-contained --to redefine all the types it depends on-- it would be a very messy and onerous system. If you want a system that can build up types - types on top of types to make more complex types - then you need a way for a type to use previously defined types.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>In x3d -a prototyping language- that looks like a new type being able to use a type defined previously in the file. Extern ProtoDeclares are stored in scene files as ProtoDeclares. As such they should be able to use type defined previously in their host file.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>On Tue, Apr 26, 2022 at 9:37 AM Andreas Plesch <<a href="mailto:andreasplesch@gmail.com" target="_blank">andreasplesch@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>> Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2022 07:56:47 -0600<br>> From: GPU Group <<a href="mailto:gpugroup@gmail.com" target="_blank">gpugroup@gmail.com</a>><br>> To: X3D Graphics public mailing list <<a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org" target="_blank">x3d-public@web3d.org</a>><br><br>> When I started with freewrl around 2009, it had a text-based system for<br>> protos:<br>> - when parsing a scene, if it found a proto declare, it would scrape the<br>> text into a buffer. Then as it continued parsing, when it hit a proto<br>> instance it pasted, and continued parsing over the pasted text as though it<br>> had been there all along. Extern protos similar, it would pause parsing, go<br>> to the file referenced, look for the proto declare by name, and scrape out<br>> the text of the ProtoDeclare, for pasting in-scene.<br>> And it worked a bit. But especially extern protos weren't working reliably.<br>> As a casual volunteer I decided to fix the bugs. How hard could it be? A<br>> little debugging and presto, I'd be a hero. As I got into it and saw more<br>> scene failure examples there were several emotional stages like grieving<br>> denial, shock, sadness, resistance etc. And a slow dawning realization the<br>> whole system needed a rework.<br>> And I didn't have support from others -just silence, perhaps they knew it<br>> was a mess and wanted to stay clear.<br>> It was a sickening feeling, and I needed to think for a few weeks whether I<br>> even wanted to be a volunteer programmer if the system was rotten from the<br>> core.<br>> So it can not only be a monster task, but precisely because it's a monster<br>> there's little support for those brave enough to tackle it.<br>> (After a few weeks I got to the Acceptance stage of grieving, and spent 6<br>> months of hobby time building the new proto system).<br><br>Thanks for the story, and for engaging. To me, I became interested<br>when I realized that x3dom is probably flexible enough to allow for<br>parameterized definition and registration of new nodes dynamically<br>which behave then exactly like native nodes. This is different from<br>filling in templates. For example, there is no performance penalty<br>during tree traversal and it enables instancing using xml nodes with<br>the new names, just as in x3dv.<br><br>I am pretty happy with how it came out. An additional complication is<br>asynchronous loading of remote resources which is standard on the web.<br>X3D should rely less on how nodes or statements are ordered in a<br>scene.<br><br>It is just frustrating that there are ill defined corners. I really do<br>not think that proto declarations should be required to inherit<br>existing declarations from parent execution contexts ( DEF/USE name<br>scopes are different but there is still a separated execution context<br>). That means the protos array of a new execution context should be<br>empty initially. The SAI spec. actually says so.<br><br>Best, Andreas<br><br>_______________________________________________<br>x3d-public mailing list<br><a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org" target="_blank">x3d-public@web3d.org</a><br><a href="http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org" target="_blank">http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org</a><o:p></o:p></p></blockquote></div></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div></div></body></html>