<div><div dir="auto">I am not too familiar with terms like parametric (reminds me of parameters) surface, implicit and explicit. I’m fairly sure that NURBS are parametric equations, but not parametric surfaces. This is somewhat confusing! Parametric geometry seems to imply interaction with geometry, like interactively modifying a field to change the NURBS (or other) shape. This sounds like CAD.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">I have modified my surface interactively. So I would fit it under parametric geometry, but not NURBS.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">I don’t know if we should consider my surfaces for addition to the standard. I am open to discussion. I have not tried to move my surfaces to NURBS yet.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">I believe when i was in college there was discussion of turning spheres to NURBS, but I didn’t hear the outcome.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">I think I understand the NURBS hierarchy now. I would encourage an abstract nurbs node added to the hierarchy between the parametric geometry and any NURBS abstracts, surfaces and curves nodes.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Then, if possible, make a “geometry set”, that NurbsSet inherits from, for smoothing geometry.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">John</div><div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, May 13, 2022 at 12:27 PM John Carlson <<a href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com" target="_blank">yottzumm@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)"><div dir="auto">Sorry, further questions keep popping up. Are we sure that the NURBS Surfaces and curves directly under the X3DParametricGeometryNode can be smoothly aligned with the other NURBS surfaces under<span style="font-family:"Courier New";font-size:13.333333015441895px;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> X3DNurbsSurfaceGeometryNode </span> ? Indeed, it kind of looks like all the interesting stuff which may be required for smoothing may be in <span style="font-family:"Courier New";font-size:13.333333015441895px;color:rgb(0,0,0)">X3DNurbsSurfaceGeometryNode (compare with NurbsCurve). If we move to the higher interface, fields valuable to smoothing may not appear in the concrete nodes?</span></div></blockquote></div></div></div><div><div><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)"><div dir="auto"><span style="font-family:"Courier New";font-size:13.333333015441895px;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></span></div><div style="background-color:rgba(0,0,0,0);border-color:rgb(255,255,255);color:rgb(255,255,255)" dir="auto"><font size="2" style="font-family:"Courier New";color:rgb(0,0,0)">This cones from someone with only a book knowledge of MURBS 35 or so years ago.</font></div><div style="background-color:rgba(0,0,0,0);border-color:rgb(255,255,255)" dir="auto"><font size="2" style="font-family:"Courier New";color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></font></div><div style="background-color:rgba(0,0,0,0);border-color:rgb(255,255,255)" dir="auto"><font size="2" style="font-family:"Courier New";color:rgb(0,0,0)">Im basically wondering why there are two abstract nodes, and why </font><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)">X3DParametricGeometryNode was placed under a the Nurbs section.</span></div><div style="background-color:rgba(0,0,0,0);border-color:rgb(255,255,255)" dir="auto"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></span></div><div style="background-color:rgba(0,0,0,0);border-color:rgb(255,255,255)" dir="auto"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)">I have interesting parametric geometry, but i can’t ever see It smoothed with NURBS or placed in a NurbsSet.</span></div><div style="background-color:rgba(0,0,0,0);border-color:rgb(255,255,255)" dir="auto"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></span></div><div style="background-color:rgba(0,0,0,0);border-color:rgb(255,255,255)" dir="auto"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)">As a reference, imagine the surface</span></div><div style="background-color:rgba(0,0,0,0);border-color:rgb(255,255,255)" dir="auto"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></span></div><div style="background-color:rgba(0,0,0,0);border-color:rgb(32,33,36);color:rgb(255,255,255)" dir="auto"><font style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"> r = radiusAverage + radiusRange * cos (numThetaLeaves * theta) * cos (numPhiLeaves * phi)</font></div><div style="background-color:rgba(0,0,0,0);border-color:rgb(32,33,36)" dir="auto"><font style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></font></div><div style="background-color:rgba(0,0,0,0);border-color:rgb(222,223,227);color:rgb(255,255,255)" dir="auto"><font style="color:rgb(0,0,0)">in spherical coordinates.</font></div><div style="background-color:rgba(0,0,0,0);border-color:rgb(222,223,227)" dir="auto"><font style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></font></div><div style="background-color:rgba(0,0,0,0);border-color:rgb(222,223,227)" dir="auto"><font style="color:rgb(0,0,0)">If X3D is extensible, where would I extend from for this surface?</font></div><div style="background-color:rgba(0,0,0,0);border-color:rgb(255,255,255)" dir="auto"><font size="2" style="font-family:"Courier New";color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></font></div><div style="background-color:rgba(0,0,0,0);border-color:rgb(255,255,255)" dir="auto"><font size="2" style="font-family:"Courier New";color:rgb(0,0,0)">John</font></div><div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, May 1 2022 at 10:13 AM Brutzman, Donald (Don) (<a href="mailto:CIbrutzman@nps.edu" target="_blank">CIbrutzman@nps.edu</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)"><div lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple" style="word-wrap:break-word"><div><p class="MsoNormal" dir="auto">Looking at the ouInterface Hierarchy shows what implements those types, confirming that only Nurbs nodes are involved. This also clearly identifies why we shifted the interface involved.<u></u><u></u></p></div></div></blockquote></div></div><div><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)"><div lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple" style="word-wrap:break-word"><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New""><u style="font-family:"Courier New""></u> <u style="font-family:"Courier New""></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New"">+- X3DParametricGeometryNode -+- NurbsCurve<u style="font-family:"Courier New""></u><u style="font-family:"Courier New""></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New""> +- NurbsSweptSurface<u style="font-family:"Courier New""></u><u style="font-family:"Courier New""></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New""> +- NurbsSwungSurface<u style="font-family:"Courier New""></u><u style="font-family:"Courier New""></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New""> |<u style="font-family:"Courier New""></u><u style="font-family:"Courier New""></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New""> +- X3DNurbsSurfaceGeometryNode -+- NurbsPatchSurface<u style="font-family:"Courier New""></u><u style="font-family:"Courier New""></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New""> +- NurbsTrimmedSurface<u style="font-family:"Courier New""></u><u style="font-family:"Courier New""></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">Dick points out that someday in (some wonderful) future we might allow other geometry nodes to get smoothly aligned next to Nurbs nodes. That will be nice – but we are OK for now.<u></u><u></u></p></div></div><div lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple" style="word-wrap:break-word"><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New""><u style="font-family:"Courier New""></u> <u style="font-family:"Courier New""></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New"">all the best, Don<u style="font-family:"Courier New""></u><u style="font-family:"Courier New""></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New"">-- <u style="font-family:"Courier New""></u><u style="font-family:"Courier New""></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New"">Don Brutzman Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br <a href="mailto:brutzman@nps.edu" style="font-family:"Courier New"" target="_blank">brutzman@nps.edu</a><u style="font-family:"Courier New""></u><u style="font-family:"Courier New""></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New"">Watkins 270, MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA +1.831.656.2149<u style="font-family:"Courier New""></u><u style="font-family:"Courier New""></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New"">X3D graphics, virtual worlds, Navy robotics https://</span> <span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New""><a href="http://faculty.nps.edu/brutzman" style="font-family:"Courier New"" target="_blank">faculty.nps.edu/brutzman</a><u style="font-family:"Courier New""></u><u style="font-family:"Courier New""></u></span></p></div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><div><div style="border-style:solid none none;border-top-width:1pt;padding:3pt 0in 0in;border-top-color:rgb(225,225,225)"><p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> John Carlson <<a href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com" target="_blank">yottzumm@gmail.com</a>> <br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, May 12, 2022 7:39 AM<br><b>To:</b> Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <<a href="mailto:brutzman@nps.edu" target="_blank">brutzman@nps.edu</a>><br><b>Cc:</b> X3D Public Mailing List (<a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org" target="_blank">x3d-public@web3d.org</a>) <<a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org" target="_blank">x3d-public@web3d.org</a>><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [x3d-public] Mantis 27.4.9 NurbSet - Change child geometry model to X3DParametricGeometryNode<u></u><u></u></p></div></div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Understood, i am just trying to work through if there’s any parametric geometry which isn’t NURBS, and is thus now inclusive in this modified NurbsSet.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Thanks!<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">John <u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><div><div><p class="MsoNormal">On Thu, May 12, 2022 at 8:58 AM Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <<a href="mailto:brutzman@nps.edu" target="_blank">brutzman@nps.edu</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p></div><blockquote style="border-style:none none none solid;border-left-width:1pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)"><div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Please be assured, no new semantics and no new functionality is being proposed. We are addressing a Mantis issue that noted the NurbsSet definition was unnecessarily restrictive. We adjusted the specification interface to match that inclusive rationale.<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">Changes to implementations are up to them. Since NurbsSet is a way for authors to communicate when various Nurbs nodes are coincident and potentially smoothable, it has no impact on functionality and might improve rendering appearance by enabling smoothed seams.<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><br>Thanks for your review.<u></u><u></u></p></div></div><div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New""> </span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New"">all the best, Don</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New"">-- </span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New"">Don Brutzman Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br <a href="mailto:brutzman@nps.edu" style="font-family:"Courier New"" target="_blank">brutzman@nps.edu</a></span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New"">Watkins 270, MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA +1.831.656.2149</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New"">X3D graphics, virtual worlds, Navy robotics https://</span> <span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New""><a href="http://faculty.nps.edu/brutzman" style="font-family:"Courier New"" target="_blank">faculty.nps.edu/brutzman</a></span><u></u><u></u></p></div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p><div><div style="border-style:solid none none;border-top-width:1pt;padding:3pt 0in 0in;border-top-color:rgb(225,225,225)"><p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> John Carlson <<a href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com" target="_blank">yottzumm@gmail.com</a>> <br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, May 11, 2022 10:40 PM<br><b>To:</b> Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <<a href="mailto:brutzman@nps.edu" target="_blank">brutzman@nps.edu</a>><br><b>Cc:</b> X3D Public Mailing List (<a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org" target="_blank">x3d-public@web3d.org</a>) <<a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org" target="_blank">x3d-public@web3d.org</a>><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [x3d-public] Mantis 27.4.9 NurbSet - Change child geometry model to X3DParametricGeometryNode<u></u><u></u></p></div></div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p><div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Don, I'm a bit unsure of the new semantics for NurbsSet....it includes other parametric geometry nodes which aren't NURBS? <u></u><u></u></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Would ParametricGeometrySet be a better name than NurbsSet, or a good addition to X3D4?<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Is it counterintuitive to look for a "ParametricGeometrySet" inside NURBS sections?<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">How does this impact browser implementations?<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">I don't know if the standard includes parametric, implicit, etc. descriptions?<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Are we planning on dropping X3DNurbsSurfaceGeometryNode in the future?<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">NURBS seems a bit specialized, but at least I know I'm looking for NURBS. Parametric seems *way* general, and should probably remain at the abstract level.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">I have no other issues that come to mind presently.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">I'm a bit leery of Mantis, so I will now review your next email. My summary: Can one include more than one abstract type in the allowable types? That is, allow both <span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New";background-color:yellow;color:black">X3DParametricGeometryNode</span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">and X3DNurbsSurfaceGeometryNode sub node types for geometry?<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Thanks!<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">John<u></u><u></u></p></div></div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p><div><div><p class="MsoNormal">On Wed, May 11, 2022 at 8:06 PM Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <<a href="mailto:brutzman@nps.edu" target="_blank">brutzman@nps.edu</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p></div><blockquote style="border-style:none none none solid;border-left-width:1pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)"><div><div><p class="MsoNormal">NurbsSet should be inclusive about which nodes an author thinks can be rendered together as one smooth surface.<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p><ul type="disc"><li>Mantis 27.4.9 NurbSet - Change child geometry model to X3DParametricGeometryNode <u></u><u></u></li><li><a href="https://www.web3d.org/member-only/mantis/view.php?id=700" target="_blank">https://www.web3d.org/member-only/mantis/view.php?id=700</a><u></u><u></u></li></ul><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p><ul type="disc"><li>X3D4 Architecture, NURBS component, 27.4.8 NurbsSet<u></u><u></u></li><li><a href="https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4Draft/ISO-IEC19775-1v4-CD1/Part01/components/nurbs.html#NurbsSet" target="_blank">https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4Draft/ISO-IEC19775-1v4-CD1/Part01/components/nurbs.html#NurbsSet</a><u></u><u></u></li></ul><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">Since X3DParametricGeometryNode includes X3DNurbsSurfaceGeometryNode, changed all three NurbsSet geometry fields from X3DNurbsSurfaceGeometryNode to X3DParametricGeometryNode.<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New"">NurbsSet : X3DChildNode, X3DBoundedObject {</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New""> MFNode [in] addGeometry [<span style="font-family:"Courier New";background-color:yellow;color:black">X3DParametricGeometryNode</span>]</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New""> MFNode [in] removeGeometry [<span style="font-family:"Courier New";background-color:yellow;color:black">X3DParametricGeometryNode</span>]</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New""> MFNode [in,out] geometry [] [<span style="font-family:"Courier New";background-color:yellow;color:black">X3DParametricGeometryNode</span>]</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New""> SFNode [in,out] metadata NULL [X3DMetadataObject]</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New""> SFFloat [in,out] tessellationScale 1.0 (0,∞)</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New""> SFVec3f [] bboxCenter 0 0 0 (-∞,∞)</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New""> SFVec3f [] bboxSize -1 -1 -1 [0,∞) or −1 −1 −1</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New"">}</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">This changes X3DUOM and possibly some implementations. Comments welcome.<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">We current intend to accept this change as resolved once X3DUOM is updated.<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New""> </span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New"">all the best, Don</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New"">-- </span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New"">Don Brutzman Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br <a href="mailto:brutzman@nps.edu" style="font-family:"Courier New"" target="_blank">brutzman@nps.edu</a></span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New"">Watkins 270, MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA +1.831.656.2149</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New"">X3D graphics, virtual worlds, Navy robotics https://</span> <span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New""><a href="http://faculty.nps.edu/brutzman" style="font-family:"Courier New"" target="_blank">faculty.nps.edu/brutzman</a></span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p></div></div><p class="MsoNormal">_______________________________________________<br>x3d-public mailing list<br><a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org" target="_blank">x3d-public@web3d.org</a><br><a href="http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org" target="_blank">http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org</a><u></u><u></u></p></blockquote></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div>
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