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    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">These messages were all on the public
      list and referenced glTF. <br>
    </div>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
    </div>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">I passed on to 3D Formats WG of Khronos
      (manages glTF Specification) for comments and provided a summary
      and links to the relevant messages from the mailing list and
      documents. There were links to 3 messages (the initial message,
      the updated PDF, and Michalis' comments.] and the Google Sheet
      document. I gave a chance for people to comment, especially on
      features of glTF.</div>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
    </div>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">The comments from one individual
      follow.<br>
    </div>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix"><font color="blue"><br>
      </font></div>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix"><font color="blue">Some feedback from
        my side:(unfortunately I only checked the comments in [3] after
        writing this - there's definitely some overlap)<br>
      </font>
      <ul>
        <li><font color="blue">It looks like while the X3D side counts
            their annexes in, glTF extension mechanism is ignored for
            the glTF side (otherwise a good amount of the "NO"s would
            either be "YES" or "possible through extensions"). I think
            an equal comparison would either exclude X3D annexes or
            include glTF extensions.<br>
            <br>
          </font></li>
        <li><font color="blue">While it's mentioned that X3D is an ISO
            standard it's omitted that glTF is also an ISO standard.<br>
            <br>
          </font></li>
        <li><font color="blue">I'm not sure what <i>Metadata
              structures: partial, in separate files</i> means for glTF
            - there's at least one extension for that.<br>
            <br>
          </font></li>
        <li><font color="blue"><i>glTF: Transmission format designed for
              applications rendering using WebGL or OpenGLES.</i> is
            incorrect in my opinion, I think glTF is explicitly not tied
            to a specific rendering backend, quite the contrary.<br>
            <br>
          </font></li>
        <li><font color="blue"><i>glTF: Always changing to support the
              fast changing GPU, a delivery system for highly optimized
              mesh data for rendering. </i>kind of omits that glTF is
            also an ISO standard and not "always changing". The
            extension mechanism allows for flexibility but the core is
            (rightfully) rigid.<br>
            <br>
          </font></li>
        <li><font color="blue">One thing that bothers me in a lot of
            Khronos communication around glTF is the focus on "efficient
            transmission from server to client" and similar. Alternate
            wordings are "The JPEG of 3D" and so on. Lots of companies
            have started to adopt glTF as an interchange format as well
            (including us), not just for last-mile delivery. I don't
            think it strengthens glTF as a whole to "fight against that"
            in communication and continually emphasizing that the format
            is somehow only suitable for last-mile delivery.<br>
            (compare also lots of the USDZ vs. glTF discussions at this
            year's Siggraph)<br>
            I understand this is a bigger discussion but wanted to
            mention it here nonetheless. Almost all of the "Technology
            Comparison Summaries" entries revolve around that, hinting
            at glTF not being a good format for anything else.<br>
            <br>
          </font></li>
        <li><font color="blue">Related to the above and some more of the
            "NO"s: we're happily using glTF extensions for composition
            of files, inline use of glbs inside glbs, and so on, there's
            nothing blocking extensions from doing that. (I understand
            glXF tries to specify that as separate format but still
            don't fully understand why)</font><br>
        </li>
      </ul>
    </div>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
    </div>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Leonard Daly<br>
    </div>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
    </div>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
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              <div>Michalis thank you for your note. Please be assured
                we that we have zero desire to overstate or incorrectly
                characterize anything. Our previously sent draft did not
                receive any responses. You saw our best effort update to
                it. Happy to continue improving. Can we meet during this
                Friday’s meeting?</div>
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              <div dir="ltr">Thanks, Don</div>
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              </div>
              <div dir="ltr">Search for my handheld device</div>
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      <div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font style="font-size:11pt"
          face="Calibri, sans-serif" color="#000000"><b>From:</b>
          Michalis Kamburelis <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:michalis.kambi@gmail.com"><michalis.kambi@gmail.com></a><br>
          <b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, September 6, 2022 6:47:04 AM<br>
          <b>To:</b> Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV)
          <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:brutzman@nps.edu"><brutzman@nps.edu></a><br>
          <b>Cc:</b> X3D Public Mailing List (<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org">x3d-public@web3d.org</a>)
          <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org"><x3d-public@web3d.org></a><br>
          <b>Subject:</b> Re: [x3d-public] X3D Working Group Minutes, 2
          SEP 2022: X3D glTF feature comparison</font>
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            <div class="PlainText">NPS WARNING: *external sender* verify
              before acting.<br>
              <br>
              <br>
              Hello,<br>
              <br>
              I read the <a
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              and have a number of comments. (sorry -- this is another
              of Michalis'<br>
              long emails :) ).<br>
              <br>
              My main objections are to the initial sections "Value
              Proposition" and<br>
              "Technology Comparison Summaries".  To be frank, a lot of
              the content<br>
              there seems to be written with the mindset "X3D is better
              than glTF,<br>
              so let's list all the ways how it is better". Some
              statements are<br>
              unclear (and the lack of clarity seems to suggest that X3D
              is better),<br>
              some are just untrue IMHO. To be clear, in my opinion,
              indeed X3D<br>
              *has* some strengths over glTF, and same goes for the
              other way<br>
              around, glTF did some stuff better than X3D.<br>
              <br>
              A fair comparison of X3D vs glTF would be helpful (I have
              written it<br>
              myself too, but never published :) ). But the table above
              is not very<br>
              fair, it tries to push the agenda "X3D is better" a bit
              too much. Let<br>
              me point out what I think should be improved:<br>
              <br>
              1. "Value Proposition" - in general, the goals listed for
              X3D are<br>
              broad (wide variety of applications...), while the goals
              and use-cases<br>
              listed for glTF are narrow (efficient transmission,
              appropriate if you<br>
              want to view in web browser).<br>
              <br>
              This does not reflect reality in my experience. Neither
              does it<br>
              reflect glTF mission statements at the beginning of<br>
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              , "glTF is<br>
              an API-neutral runtime asset delivery format. glTF bridges
              the gap<br>
              between 3D content creation tools and modern graphics
              applications by<br>
              providing an efficient, extensible, interoperable format
              for the<br>
              transmission and loading of 3D content.".<br>
              <br>
              The practical fact, IMHO, is that glTF is here exactly
              like X3D. It's<br>
              just a format for 3D models, it can be used with a variety
              of<br>
              applications, on any platforms (certainly not only to view
              the models<br>
              in web browser; e.g. game engines, including Castle Game
              Engine, allow<br>
              to use glTF as 3D model format on desktops).<br>
              <br>
              So I would suggest to place there the glTF statement I
              cited above<br>
              ("glTF is an API-neutral runtime asset delivery format.
              glTF<br>
              bridges..."), and in general make this section simply
              honestly state:<br>
              the goals and usecases of X3D and glTF largely overlap.
              They are both<br>
              open standards for 3D models and can be used in a variety
              of<br>
              applications, use-cases, platforms.<br>
              <br>
              2. "Technology Comparison Summaries" - in general,
              statements there<br>
              again suffer from "a bit unclear, in favor of X3D and
              disfavor of<br>
              glTF".<br>
              <br>
              - X3D advantage: "X3D: Full Inline support for glTF
              features,<br>
              especially compressed geometry plus advanced lighting
              model planned<br>
              for X3D version 4." - in X3D we have it, but it is not
              complete as<br>
              this statement suggests. In particular we don't yet have
              in X3D spec<br>
              any way to specify binary per-vertex data or "compressed
              geometry".<br>
              This is a work in progress, with some browser-specific
              extensions, not<br>
              more yet ( <a
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              ). We have not yet figured out how 100% of glTF features
              express as<br>
              X3D (as I say explicitly on<br>
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              ).<br>
              <br>
                  I would suggest to change it to "X3D: Inline support
              for many glTF<br>
              features, especially advanced physically-based materials."<br>
              <br>
              - "glTF: Transmission format designed for applications
              rendering using<br>
              WebGL or OpenGLES." This tries to suggest that glTF
              usefullness is<br>
              narrow. It is in conflict with actual glTF statement I
              cited above,<br>
              "glTF is an API-neutral runtime asset delivery format.".
              glTF makes<br>
              sense regardless if you use WebGL or OpenGLES. Yes, it
              used some<br>
              constants / naming from WebGL / OpenGLES, but it's fully
              implementable<br>
              and understandable in the context of any graphics API -
              including e.g.<br>
              Vulkan and Direct3D.<br>
              <br>
                  I would suggest to change it to "glTF is an
              API-neutral runtime<br>
              asset delivery format."<br>
              <br>
              - "glTF: Always changing to support the fast changing GPU,
              a delivery<br>
              system for highly optimized mesh data for rendering." -
              not true, or<br>
              at least unclear statement. glTF is not "always changing".
              They care<br>
              about backward compatibility a *lot* and glTF 2.0 has been
              stable for<br>
              many years, without any breaking changes.<br>
              <br>
                  I would suggest to just remove this statement.<br>
              <br>
              - "glTF: Backward compatibility, archivability, are not
              listed as<br>
              specification goals." - not true. In practice, of course
              they care<br>
              about backward compatibility. And it is mentioned in spec
              explicitly:<br>
              <a
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              ,<br>
              "Any updates made to the glTF Specification in a minor
              version MUST be<br>
              backward and forward compatible....."<br>
              <br>
                  I would suggest to change this statement: "glTF:
              Backward<br>
              compatibility is addressed by the spec, any updates made
              to the glTF<br>
              Specification in a minor version MUST be backward and
              forward<br>
              compatible."<br>
              <br>
              3. "Picking (touch/over TouchSensor, PickableGroup)" -
              glTF should<br>
              have "No". (So this part is wrong in favor of glTF).
              There's work to<br>
              introduce such features on top of glTF, but glTF spec does
              not have<br>
              it.<br>
              <br>
              4. "Clipping planes" - glTF should have "No".<br>
              <br>
              5. "Metadata Structures" - glTF does have it, in much the
              same way as X3D.<br>
              <br>
              - Essentially anything can have additional informatiom,
              with key-value<br>
              or deeper structure:<br>
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              . This is quite similar in practice to how X3D MetadataXxx
              nodes are<br>
              used.<br>
              <br>
              - There's also "asset" for per-file properties:<br>
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              . This<br>
              is quite similar to common usage of X3D "META" statements.<br>
              <br>
              - And the "extras" are mentioned above are really used in
              practice.<br>
              Blender exports Blender's "Custom properties" to glTF
              "extras". (Which<br>
              is actually better than Blender->X3D exporter, that
              doesn't write X3D<br>
              MetadataXxx, although it could.)<br>
              <br>
              6. "Inline" - this is correct, glTF doesn't have it. But
              you can<br>
              mention <a
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              -- it's not yet<br>
              officially endorsed, but it's an idea to address exactly
              this, i.e.<br>
              compose world from multiple glTF files.<br>
              <br>
              7. Let me add some things I consider missing to have a
              good picture:<br>
              <br>
              "Efficient representation of mesh in binary format"<br>
              X3D: not (yet!)<br>
              glTF: yes<br>
              <br>
              "Cubemap textures, including generated cubemaps"<br>
              X3D: yes<br>
              glTF: no<br>
              <br>
              "Lights"<br>
              X3D: yes<br>
              glTF: not in core spec (but in extensions)<br>
              <br>
              "Environmental effects, like fog and background"<br>
              X3D: yes<br>
              glTF: no<br>
              <br>
              "Full-featured and actively maintained Blender exporter,
              with support<br>
              for PBR materials, animations, skinned animations"<br>
              X3D: not (yet!)<br>
              glTF: yes<br>
              <br>
              Regards,<br>
              Michalis<br>
              <br>
              sob., 3 wrz 2022 o 01:10 Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV)<br>
              <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:brutzman@nps.edu"><brutzman@nps.edu></a> napisał(a):<br>
              ><br>
              > Spreadsheet PDF with corrected date (for today)
              attached.<br>
              ><br>
              ><br>
              ><br>
              > all the best, Don<br>
              ><br>
              > --<br>
              ><br>
              > Don Brutzman  Naval Postgraduate School, Code
              USW/Br        <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:brutzman@nps.edu">brutzman@nps.edu</a><br>
              ><br>
              > Watkins 270,  MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000
              USA    +1.831.656.2149<br>
              ><br>
              > X3D graphics, virtual worlds, Navy robotics https://
              faculty.nps.edu/brutzman<br>
              ><br>
              ><br>
              ><br>
              > _______________________________________________<br>
              > x3d-public mailing list<br>
              > <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org">x3d-public@web3d.org</a><br>
              > <a
                href="http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org"
                moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org</a><br>
            </div>
          </span></font></div>
      <br>
      <fieldset class="moz-mime-attachment-header"></fieldset>
      <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
x3d-public mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org">x3d-public@web3d.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org">http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org</a>
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <p><br>
    </p>
    <div class="moz-signature">-- <br>
      <font class="tahoma,arial,helvetica san serif" color="#333366">
        <font size="+1"><b>Leonard Daly</b></font><br>
        3D Systems & Cloud Consultant<br>
        President, Daly Realism - <i>Creating the Future</i>
      </font></div>
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