<div class="mail_android_message" style="line-height: 1; padding: 0.5em">Hi Doug<br/><br/>These are very good questions, especially about the order of WebAPIs and JavaScript. I will probably not send Increment v0.7 until next weekend.<br/><br/>Best regards<br/>Christoph<br/><br/>--<br/>Diese Nachricht wurde von meinem Android Mobiltelefon mit GMX Mail gesendet.</div>
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<body style="overflow-wrap:break-word; word-break: break-word;"><div class="mail_android_quote" style="line-height: 1; padding: 0.3em"><html><body>Am 18.09.22, 17:26 schrieb GPU Group <gpugroup@gmail.com>:</body></html><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0.8ex 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
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That looks close.
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Should the "Web APIs" be below "HTML/CSS/javascript"?
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2 stacks in the W3C Browser box:
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a) conventional web app
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HTML/CSS/Javascript
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Web APIs / webgl
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W3C browser
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b) WebAssembly
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WebAssembly / WASM
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Web APIs / webgl
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W3C browser
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<br>
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The W3C browser delegates webgl to host operating system native method graphics APIs, such as DirectX on windows via ANGLE PROJECT interop layer.
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WebAssembly / WASM also runs over the web apis, something that looks like a desktop function is converted to a Web API / webgl call via interop layer.
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-Doug
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On Sun, Sep 18, 2022 at 8:56 AM Christoph Valentin <<a href="mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at">christoph.valentin@gmx.at</a>> wrote:
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Hi all,
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Sorry, one (hopefully) last increment: v0.6
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Necessary corrections:
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- Browser plugins are displayed correctly, now (imho)
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- red: application software
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- green: software with standardized or "well-known" APIs
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- blue: APIs
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Kind regards,
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Christoph
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<img src="Attachment/Y2lkOjE4MzUxMjc2MTZkYzIwNGJmY2Mz">
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<b>Gesendet:</b> Sonntag, 18. September 2022 um 05:14 Uhr
<br> <b>Von:</b> "Christoph Valentin" <<a href="mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at">christoph.valentin@gmx.at</a>>
<br> <b>An:</b> "Doug Sanden" <<a href="mailto:gpugroup@gmail.com">gpugroup@gmail.com</a>>, <a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org">x3d-public@web3d.org</a>, "Don Brutzman" <<a href="mailto:brutzman@nps.edu">brutzman@nps.edu</a>>
<br> <b>Cc:</b> "Mehdin Masinovic" <<a href="mailto:mehdin.masinovic2@gmail.com">mehdin.masinovic2@gmail.com</a>>, "Kevin" <<a href="mailto:klw71@yahoo.com">klw71@yahoo.com</a>>, "Markus Sonntag" <<a href="mailto:markus.sonntag@tmo.at">markus.sonntag@tmo.at</a>>
<br> <b>Betreff:</b> Fw: [x3d-public] Re: Potential X3D Stack of APIs and Software - Aw: Re: X3D agenda 16 SEP 2022: Mantis issues, X3D-glTF comparison, Web3D Roadmap, X3D Web Stack diagrams
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The box should be green, shouldn't it?
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-----------------------
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Hi Doug,
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I inserted another light blue box, at the left side, in order to tackle your comments.
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I called the box "Native Runtime Environment" (NRE), so I think I covered all the cases of JRE, Browser Plugins and WebKit/WASM, didn't I?
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Kind regards,
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Christoph
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<img src="Attachment/Y2lkOjE4MzUxMjc2MTZkYzIwNGJmY2My">
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<b>Gesendet:</b> Samstag, 17. September 2022 um 17:45 Uhr
<br> <b>Von:</b> "Christoph Valentin" <<a href="mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at">christoph.valentin@gmx.at</a>>
<br> <b>An:</b> <a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org">x3d-public@web3d.org</a>, "Doug Sanden" <<a href="mailto:gpugroup@gmail.com">gpugroup@gmail.com</a>>
<br> <b>Cc:</b> "Mehdin Masinovic" <<a href="mailto:mehdin.masinovic2@gmail.com">mehdin.masinovic2@gmail.com</a>>, "Kevin" <<a href="mailto:klw71@yahoo.com">klw71@yahoo.com</a>>, "Markus Sonntag" <<a href="mailto:markus.sonntag@tmo.at">markus.sonntag@tmo.at</a>>
<br> <b>Betreff:</b> [x3d-public] Fw: Re: Potential X3D Stack of APIs and Software - Aw: Re: X3D agenda 16 SEP 2022: Mantis issues, X3D-glTF comparison, Web3D Roadmap, X3D Web Stack diagrams
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Anyway, two last small improvements, before I let it go :-)
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<img src="Attachment/Y2lkOjE4MzUxMjc2MTZkYzIwNGJmY2Mx">
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Have a nice week
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Yours Christoph
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<b>Gesendet:</b> Samstag, 17. September 2022 um 16:39 Uhr
<br> <b>Von:</b> "Christoph Valentin" <<a href="mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at">christoph.valentin@gmx.at</a>>
<br> <b>An:</b> "Doug Sanden" <<a href="mailto:gpugroup@gmail.com">gpugroup@gmail.com</a>>
<br> <b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org">x3d-public@web3d.org</a>
<br> <b>Betreff:</b> Re: [x3d-public] Fw: Potential X3D Stack of APIs and Software - Aw: Re: X3D agenda 16 SEP 2022: Mantis issues, X3D-glTF comparison, Web3D Roadmap, X3D Web Stack diagrams
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Hi Doug,
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<br> Unfortunately, I am not aware of those technologies (Chromium, Electron, Webkit / WASM).
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Do you think, the picture could be easily adapted to introduce them (without naming concrete products/projects)?
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Would it be a big problem, if I asked you to do that update? I sent the .odg with the e-mail. You are free to use and modify it according to your will (let's say according to GPL license).
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<br> Kind regards,
<br> Christoph
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Am 17.09.22, 15:26 schrieb GPU Group <<a href="mailto:gpugroup@gmail.com">gpugroup@gmail.com</a>>:
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"Machine Based" could be "Native" or "Native Application"?
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Stacks not shown:
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- Chromium native plugin (desktop DX,OGL)
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- Electron (Chromium+Node.js html+css: chromium webgl)
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- Webkit / WASM (web browser hosted native code: webgl)
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On Sat, Sep 17, 2022 at 7:10 AM Christoph Valentin <<a href="mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at">christoph.valentin@gmx.at</a>> wrote:
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Trying a beautification..............still just a suggestion / draft / "brain fart".............
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<img src="http://Attachment/Y2lkOjE4MzRiOTQ1OTU5YzIwNGJmY2My">
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Kind regards,
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Christoph
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<b>Gesendet:</b> Samstag, 17. September 2022 um 14:14 Uhr
<br> <b>Von:</b> "Christoph Valentin" <<a href="mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at">christoph.valentin@gmx.at</a>>
<br> <b>An:</b> <a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org">x3d-public@web3d.org</a>
<br> <b>Cc:</b> "Kevin" <<a href="mailto:klw71@yahoo.com">klw71@yahoo.com</a>>, "Mehdin Masinovic" <<a href="mailto:mehdin.masinovic2@gmail.com">mehdin.masinovic2@gmail.com</a>>, "Markus Sonntag" <<a href="mailto:markus.sonntag@tmo.at">markus.sonntag@tmo.at</a>>
<br> <b>Betreff:</b> [x3d-public] Fw: Potential X3D Stack of APIs and Software - Aw: Re: X3D agenda 16 SEP 2022: Mantis issues, X3D-glTF comparison, Web3D Roadmap, X3D Web Stack diagrams
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Increment v0.2......
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<img src="http://Attachment/Y2lkOjE4MzRiOTQ1OTU5YzIwNGJmY2Mx">
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All the best
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Christoph
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<b>Gesendet:</b> Samstag, 17. September 2022 um 13:41 Uhr
<br> <b>Von:</b> "Christoph Valentin" <<a href="mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at">christoph.valentin@gmx.at</a>>
<br> <b>An:</b> <a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org">x3d-public@web3d.org</a>
<br> <b>Cc:</b> "Kevin" <<a href="mailto:klw71@yahoo.com">klw71@yahoo.com</a>>, "Mehdin Masinovic" <<a href="mailto:mehdin.masinovic2@gmail.com">mehdin.masinovic2@gmail.com</a>>, "Markus Sonntag" <<a href="mailto:markus.sonntag@tmo.at">markus.sonntag@tmo.at</a>>
<br> <b>Betreff:</b> [x3d-public] Fw: Potential X3D Stack of APIs and Software - Aw: Re: X3D agenda 16 SEP 2022: Mantis issues, X3D-glTF comparison, Web3D Roadmap, X3D Web Stack diagrams
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Instant correction:
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<br> Should replace "Hardware" by "Machine" (can be a virtual machine)
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<br> --
<br> Diese Nachricht wurde von meinem Android Mobiltelefon mit GMX Mail gesendet.
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Am 17.09.22, 11:21 schrieb Christoph Valentin <<a href="mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at">christoph.valentin@gmx.at</a>>:
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Hi John, Hi Don,
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Sorry for my late reaction.
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What do you think about this?
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<img src="http://Attachment/Y2lkOjMyMjM5M2IzNzAwOWQ4YWU3NDgyM2IxZWM4NWY0OTlhYmI5Y2JjZTQ5NzhmMDE5MzY4ODJlYTI2YjE3MmZiMTA">
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Kind regards,
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Christoph
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<b>Gesendet:</b> Freitag, 16. September 2022 um 18:05 Uhr
<br> <b>Von:</b> "John Carlson" <<a href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com">yottzumm@gmail.com</a>>
<br> <b>An:</b> "Christoph Valentin" <<a href="mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at">christoph.valentin@gmx.at</a>>
<br> <b>Cc:</b> "X3D Public Mailing List (<a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org">x3d-public@web3d.org</a>)" <<a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org">x3d-public@web3d.org</a>>, "Don Brutzman" <<a href="mailto:brutzman@nps.edu">brutzman@nps.edu</a>>
<br> <b>Betreff:</b> Re: [x3d-public] X3D agenda 16 SEP 2022: Mantis issues, X3D-glTF comparison, Web3D Roadmap, X3D Web Stack diagrams
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Doug Sanden suggested we include Web Assembly (WASM). Presumably it would be compiling an X3D Browser. I am not sure if we are going to compile X3D applications to WASM, but it's a nice thought!
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On Thu, Sep 15, 2022 at 3:00 PM Christoph Valentin <<a href="mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at">christoph.valentin@gmx.at</a>> wrote:
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Hi all,
<br>
<br> Sorry for my "brain farts", but one silly idea.
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<br> If X3D is ONE standard (for WebGL, OpenGL and DirectX)
<br> and if X3D is backwards compatible with VRML worlds,
<br> and if some future development (which need not carry the name "X3D") will be backwards compatible with X3D,
<br>
<br> then,
<br>
<br> why shouldn't we draw another contiguous block below the "X3D Application" and call this block
<br>
<br> "Web3D Browser (Web Based, OpenGL based, DirectX based, ......)".
<br>
<br> Kr,
<br> CP
<br>
<br> --
<br> Diese Nachricht wurde von meinem Android Mobiltelefon mit GMX Mail gesendet.
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Am 15.09.22, 21:22 schrieb Christoph Valentin <<a href="mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at">christoph.valentin@gmx.at</a>>:
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Hi John
<br>
<br> 1) You mean?
<br>
<br> -. HTML instead of HTML Browser
<br> - concrete X3D engines instead of "X3D Engine" (why are X_ITE and X3DOM listed, standalone X3D engines are not listed by name?).
<br>
<br> 2) One question to all:
<br> The "X3D Application" (I would rather call it "Web3D Application") is a contiguous block above "both worlds".
<br>
<br> Are we all on the same page, what this means? Not the provider of the application, but the user of the application selects which X3D browser to use?
<br>
<br> Kr,
<br> Christoph
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br> --
<br> Diese Nachricht wurde von meinem Android Mobiltelefon mit GMX Mail gesendet.
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Am 15.09.22, 21:09 schrieb John Carlson <<a href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com">yottzumm@gmail.com</a>>:
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More likely, a combined term would be API?
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On Thu, Sep 15, 2022 at 2:04 PM Christoph Valentin <<a href="mailto:christoph.valentin@gmx.at">christoph.valentin@gmx.at</a>> wrote:
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Hi,
<br>
<br> One small remark about x3d web stack.
<br>
<br> The picture uses two kinds of blocks
<br> 1. Software entities (Browser, Engine, OS, ...)
<br> 2. Standards (WebGL, OpenGL, ...)
<br>
<br> Couldn't we write software entities instead of standards (e.g. WebGL is implemented by JavaScript engines)?
<br>
<br> Kr
<br>
<br> --
<br> Diese Nachricht wurde von meinem Android Mobiltelefon mit GMX Mail gesendet.
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Am 15.09.22, 20:49 schrieb "Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV)" <<a href="mailto:brutzman@nps.edu">brutzman@nps.edu</a>>:
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<p class="MsoNormal">[corrected agenda follows, apologies for prior runaway email]</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">There will be a meeting of X3D Working Group on Friday 29 July 2022 at 09-10 pacific. Connection information and topics follow.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<ul style="margin-top:0in" type="disc">
<li><a href="https://us02web.zoom.us/j/81634670698?pwd=a1VPeU5tN01rc21Oa3hScUlHK0Rxdz09">https://us02web.zoom.us/j/81634670698?pwd=a1VPeU5tN01rc21Oa3hScUlHK0Rxdz09</a></li>
<li><a href="https://zoom.us/j/148206572">https://zoom.us/j/148206572</a> Password 483805</li>
<li><a href="https://www.web3d.org/member/teleconference-information">https://www.web3d.org/member/teleconference-information</a></li>
</ul>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
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<li>Agenda review</li>
</ol>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<ol start="1" style="margin-top:0in" type="1">
<li>Good progress in Design Printing Scanning call led to two new Mantis issues for possible comment:</li>
</ol>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<ol start="1" style="margin-top:0in" type="a">
<li style="margin-left:0in">Mantis <span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(243,243,243);color:black">1400: add Scalable Vector Graphics (SVG) to recommended image formats for ImageTexture</span></li>
</ol>
<p><a href="https://www.web3d.org/member-only/mantis/view.php?id=1400">https://www.web3d.org/member-only/mantis/view.php?id=1400</a></p>
<p> </p>
<ol start="2" style="margin-top:0in" type="a">
<li style="margin-left:0in">Mantis <span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(243,243,243);color:black">1401: aligning X3D4 LineProperties with Quality Information Framework (QIF) specification</span></li>
</ol>
<p><a href="https://www.web3d.org/member-only/mantis/view.php?id=1401">https://www.web3d.org/member-only/mantis/view.php?id=1401</a></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<ol start="2" style="margin-top:0in" type="1">
<li>Any further improvements to X3D-glTF comparison? Excellent progress so far, this is a valuable review.</li>
</ol>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<ul style="margin-top:0in" type="disc">
<li style="margin-left:0in">Features Comparison X3D 4.0 and glTF 2.0</li>
<li style="margin-left:0in"><a href="https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1x0DnRtg33AuOA_aSl70L41Gq5m6TFt4t">https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1x0DnRtg33AuOA_aSl70L41Gq5m6TFt4t</a></li>
</ul>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<ol start="3" style="margin-top:0in" type="1">
<li>Reviewing Web3D Roadmap, Anita and Communications Team made some good edits today.</li>
</ol>
<p style="margin-left:0.25in"> </p>
<ul style="margin-top:0in" type="disc">
<li style="margin-left:0in"><a href="https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1jwY0JeYyvA8aW-e-Q06GINQkJS7b7S8jgjpJZGDjl0I/edit#slide=id.p3">https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1jwY0JeYyvA8aW-e-Q06GINQkJS7b7S8jgjpJZGDjl0I/edit#slide=id.p3</a></li>
</ul>
<p style="margin-left:0.25in"> </p>
<ol start="4" style="margin-top:0in" type="1">
<li>Considering further refactoring of X3D Web Stack diagrams (three variations attached)</li>
</ol>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Onward we go…</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New""> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New"">all the best, Don</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New"">-- </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New"">Don Brutzman Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br <a href="mailto:brutzman@nps.edu" style="font-family:"Courier New"">brutzman@nps.edu</a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New"">Watkins 270, MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA +1.831.656.2149</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New"">X3D graphics, virtual worlds, Navy robotics https://</span> <span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New""><a href="http://faculty.nps.edu/brutzman" style="font-family:"Courier New"">faculty.nps.edu/brutzman</a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
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