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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link="#0563C1" vlink="#954F72" style='word-wrap:break-word'><div class=WordSection1><div style='mso-element:para-border-div;border:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 1.0pt 0in'><p class=MsoNormal style='border:none;padding:0in'>Attendees: Dick Puk, Don Brutzman<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='border:none;padding:0in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>1. We first reviewed the two recently posted Mantis issues regarding SVG and QIF. We also looked at a Mantis issue posted earlier this year relating to scalable composition of really large X3D worlds. Selected details follow.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><ol style='margin-top:0in' start=1 type=a><li class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'>Mantis <span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black;background:#F3F3F3'>1400: add Scalable Vector Graphics (SVG) to recommended image formats for ImageTexture</span><o:p></o:p></li></ol><p class=MsoListParagraph>https://www.web3d.org/member-only/mantis/view.php?id=1400<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.25in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black;background:#F3F3F3'>SVG references:</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'><br clear=all><br clear=all><span style='background:#F3F3F3'>* </span></span><a href="https://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:royalblue;text-decoration:none'>https://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG</span></a><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'><br clear=all><span style='background:#F3F3F3'>* "SVG is a markup language for describing two-dimensional graphics applications and images, and a set of related graphics script interfaces."</span><br clear=all><br clear=all><span style='background:#F3F3F3'>Dick estimation: thinks SVG is a 2D scene-graph definition language. It can result as an image, though so can X3D.</span><br clear=all><br clear=all><span style='background:#F3F3F3'>This issue suggests that SVG be listed as a recommended (optional) format that can be rendered as an ImageTexture, using the default presentation settings of the SVG model.</span><br clear=all><br clear=all><span style='background:#F3F3F3'>Of note is that browsers are not forbidden from implementing SVG as an ImageTexture format, and also that SVG-to-PNG converters are commonplace.</span><br clear=all><br clear=all><span style='background:#F3F3F3'>Of further note is that the DPS minutes already showed a use case for SVG as ImageTexture, namely conversion of metadata information as a carefully laid-out annotation image that is billboarded in context. Having direct SVG rendering would eliminate the offscreen conversion step, permitting direct integration of X3D models with other HTML/SVG web graphics.</span><br clear=all><br clear=all><span style='background:#F3F3F3'>Concern: don't want to overcomplicate the existing ImageTexture functionality as a 2D array of pixels. Once generation of pixels becomes a computational process, this is different functionality for the ImageTexture node. This might raise further concerns about impact of ImageTexture computational complexity in various profiles (such as Interchange Profile).</span><br clear=all><br clear=all><span style='background:#F3F3F3'>Possible alternate: define SvgTexture node? What fields would it have?</span><br clear=all style='font-variant-ligatures: normal;font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: 2;widows: 2;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;text-decoration-thickness: initial;text-decoration-style: initial;text-decoration-color: initial;word-spacing:0px'></span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.25in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black;background:#F3F3F3'>Suggested possible resolution:</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'><br clear=all><br clear=all><span style='background:#F3F3F3'>a. Browsers are welcome to implement ImageTexture as an allowed url format if they see fit,</span><br clear=all><span style='background:#F3F3F3'>b. SvgTexture ought to be designed and considered as a possible new node,</span><br clear=all><span style='background:#F3F3F3'>c. ComposedImageTexture (or somesuch) might be designed and considered as an even-more general possibility for comuputational 2D imagery,</span><br clear=all><span style='background:#F3F3F3'>d. Following further practical experience, defer any specification-change recommendations to future X3D4.1.<o:p></o:p></span></span></p><div style='mso-element:para-border-div;border:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 1.0pt 0in'><p class=MsoNormal style='border:none;padding:0in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black;background:#F3F3F3'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><ol style='margin-top:0in' start=2 type=a><li class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'>Mantis <span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black;background:#F3F3F3'>1401: aligning X3D4 LineProperties with Quality Information Framework (QIF) specification</span><o:p></o:p></li></ol><p class=MsoListParagraph>https://www.web3d.org/member-only/mantis/view.php?id=1401<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.25in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black;background:#F3F3F3'>Suggested resolution:</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'><br clear=all><br clear=all><span style='background:#F3F3F3'>a. The concepts are directly aligned and overlapping, with some additions by QIF.</span><br clear=all><span style='background:#F3F3F3'>b. This ISO standard does not appear to have been considered by SC24 or JTC1.</span><br clear=all><span style='background:#F3F3F3'>c. Close scrutiny of both terms and definitions needs to be performed before any changes might be recommended.</span><br clear=all><span style='background:#F3F3F3'>d. If changes are indeed warranted and acceptable, then they likely need to first considered as part of the Registry of Items, specifically entries for linestyle and hatchstyle.</span><br clear=all><span style='background:#F3F3F3'>e. At that point, amendment of X3D to stay aligned with Registry of Items (or possibly add further styles independently) can be considered.</span><br clear=all><span style='background:#F3F3F3'>f. Defer to X3D 4.1.</span><br clear=all><br clear=all><span style='background:#F3F3F3'>Meanwhile note in Web3D current ballot comments the need to fix the table erratum previously noted.</span></span><o:p></o:p></p><div style='mso-element:para-border-div;border:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 1.0pt 0in'><p class=MsoNormal style='border:none;padding:0in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><ol style='margin-top:0in' start=3 type=a><li class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'>Mantis <span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black;background:#F3F3F3'>1192: 07.2.2 Bindable children nodes - Undefined results if bindable node is under Switch or LOD is problematic</span><o:p></o:p></li></ol><p class=MsoListParagraph>https://www.web3d.org/member-only/mantis/view.php?id=1192#bugnotes<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div style='mso-element:para-border-div;border:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 1.0pt 0in'><p class=MsoNormal style='border:none;padding:0in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black;background:#EBEBEB'>Comment on 19775-1: Abstract X3D Definitions - V3.3</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'><br clear=all><span style='background:#EBEBEB'>7.2.2 Bindable children nodes</span><br clear=all></span><a href="http://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19775-1/V3.3/Part01/components/core.html#BindableChildrenNodes"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:royalblue;background:#EBEBEB;text-decoration:none'>http://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19775-1/V3.3/Part01/components/core.html#BindableChildrenNodes</span></a><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'><br clear=all><br clear=all><span style='background:#EBEBEB'>-----------------</span><br clear=all><span style='background:#EBEBEB'>Subject: Undefined results if bindable node is under Switch or LOD is problematic</span><br clear=all><br clear=all><span style='background:#EBEBEB'>Spec sayeth:</span><br clear=all><span style='background:#EBEBEB'>"The results are undefined if a bindable node is bound and is the child of an LOD, Switch, or any node or prototype that disables its children."</span><br clear=all><br clear=all><span style='background:#EBEBEB'>This leads to all manner of inconsistent problems among scenes. It also means that Inline node (which may or may not include bindable nodes) has undefined behavior under LOD/Switch/etc.</span><br clear=all><br clear=all><span style='background:#EBEBEB'>As a result, in addition to indeterminate X3D browser behavior, it means that X3D scenes are not fully composable. That is contrary to X3D design objectives.</span><br clear=all><br clear=all><span style='background:#EBEBEB'>Different prose and deterministic guidelines is needed in this section that provides clear rules for binding/unbinding nodes when they become active within LOD/Switch/etc. Small adaptations to current binding rules can likely address this problem satisfactorily.</span><br clear=all><br clear=all><span style='background:#EBEBEB'>Related: Mantis issue 749<o:p></o:p></span></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='border:none;padding:0in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black;background:#EBEBEB'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='border:none;padding:0in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black;background:#EBEBEB'>April 29:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='border:none;padding:0in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black;background:#F3F3F3'>Analysis during X3D Working Group call:</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'><br clear=all><br clear=all><span style='background:#F3F3F3'>a. Switch would keep each binding stack aligned with whichever child was active, thereby binding and unbinding nodes whenever the Switch level is modified.</span><br clear=all><br clear=all><span style='background:#F3F3F3'>b. LOD would have all of its child bindable nodes on the binding stack throughout, so that user experience was consistent. For example, it would make no sense for Viewpoints to get arbitrarily unbound and bound, based on range to viewer, as a user independently navigated through a scene.</span><br clear=all><br clear=all><span style='background:#F3F3F3'>c. LOD attempting to maintain author intent has access to all Viewpoint nodes on binding stack, and range-to-viewer LOD transitions are either flexible suggestions (browser-optimization control) or rigidly enforced (forceTransitions field is TRUE). Thus if a node is subsequently bound by user in a different inactive LOD child branch, then that binding event is honored and that LOD child branch becomes the active child branch. This binding event (and changed LOD child branch selection) takes precedence over browser range/performance considerations, and also takes precedence over whatever value is provided in forceTransitions field. (Example: selecting a room Viewpoint while in a large building model).</span><br clear=all><br clear=all><span style='background:#F3F3F3'>d. NavigationInfo, Background and Fog binding stacks and responses to binding events should behave identically to Viewpoint. Variations would be exceedingly complex and not understandable. Consistency means that author intent and user action always take precedence, for Switch and LOD response.</span><br clear=all><br clear=all><span style='background:#F3F3F3'>Spec editors work on integrating these principles as specification prose (we are close already) and report back recommended changes to X3D working group.</span><br clear=all><br clear=all><span style='background:#F3F3F3'>Don's opinion: this will significantly help user-sensible scalability of huge (perhaps Metaverse-scale) models using many Inline and prototype nodes, enabling predictable and performant navigation and traversal throughout.</span><span style='background:#EBEBEB'><o:p></o:p></span></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='border:none;padding:0in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black;background:#EBEBEB'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='border:none;padding:0in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black;background:#EBEBEB'>Today’s session.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='border:none;padding:0in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black;background:#EBEBEB'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='border:none;padding:0in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black;background:#F3F3F3'>Alternatives deserving working-review consensus:</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'><br clear=all><br clear=all><span style='background:#F3F3F3'>a. Recommending this clarification of undefined prior specification prose might add important value, or might be construed as a technical change to X3D4.0 that possibly requires future re-balloting as another X3D 4.0 DIS (which is not an acceptable outcome).</span><br clear=all><br clear=all><span style='background:#F3F3F3'>b. If not balloted then this becomes an X3D4.1 issue.</span><br clear=all><br clear=all><span style='background:#F3F3F3'>c. Web3D might consider some alternative approach to strongly encourage adoption of this clarified approach in order to further encourage greater scalability of multi-world environments, and better alignment with shared Metaverse design imperatives. For example, are we creating a Best Practices Pending X3D 4.1 Approval document of some sort?</span><span style='background:#EBEBEB'><o:p></o:p></span></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='border:none;padding:0in'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='border:none;padding:0in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>2. We only have 4 total issues to review as planned Web3D comments. This will occur during a single working-group meeting, 7 OCT.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Deadline for X3D Ballot comments:<o:p></o:p></p><ul style='margin-top:0in' type=disc><li class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:0in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2'>OCT, Web3D comments to INCITS (U.S. National Standards Body<o:p></o:p></li><li class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:0in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2'>TBD OCT, INCITS comments to SC24<o:p></o:p></li><li class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:0in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2'>4 NOV, SC24 comments to ISO<o:p></o:p></li></ul><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>No meeting currently planned for 30 SEP.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>3. Bonus round: we worked on the “layer” diagram from recent meetings a bit more. Latest X3dApplicationStackLayerExamples is attached, all comments welcome.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Have fun with X3D!<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>all the best, Don<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>-- <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>Don Brutzman Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br brutzman@nps.edu<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>Watkins 270, MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA +1.831.656.2149<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>X3D graphics, virtual worlds, Navy robotics https://</span> <span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>faculty.nps.edu/brutzman<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></body></html>