<div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr">I have tried several times to get into Mantis today. It's not unusual for me not to get in. I will use "send a comment" in the future.<div><br></div><div>1. There's no "Joe" example in the HAnim 2 Standards or Annexes. As you say, Joe doesn't doesn't match current standards.</div><div><br></div><div>2. There is a "Joe" example in the archives:</div><div><a href="https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/HumanoidAnimation/Characters/JoeKickIndex.html">https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/HumanoidAnimation/Characters/JoeKickIndex.html</a><br></div><div><br></div><div>3. I haven't mastered Textures yet. Waiting for integration with Stability.AI, midJourney, etc. Yes, I'm aware of Text-to-Video and Imagen Videos. I also know that there may be Video-to-X3D (recommendations? I've only done my face so far--not a texture.). Yes, I've used variations on a fragment shader.</div><div><br></div><div>4. I'm a bit leary of recording video around the house, maybe I can do some while I am walking!</div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Dec 5, 2022 at 1:44 PM Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <<a href="mailto:brutzman@nps.edu">brutzman@nps.edu</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
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<div dir="ltr"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255);display:inline">John, the mantis issue includes two examples already. </span></div>
<div dir="ltr"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255);display:inline"><br>
</span></div>
<div dir="ltr"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255);display:inline">A. The first by Joe uses "skin" field with a Shape (illegal according to spec), rather than geometry node only (as specified by X3D spec). That is why his example is
able to use textures, and that approach seems appropriate for X3D4.</span><br>
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<div dir="ltr"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255);display:inline"><br>
</span></div>
<div dir="ltr"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255);display:inline">B. The second Korean-student example uses "skeleton" field with descendant HAnimSegment nodes containing Shape geometry. That is a different approach, long valid, with
similar visual effects as "skin" geometry.</span></div>
<div dir="ltr"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255);display:inline"><br>
</span></div>
<div dir="ltr"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255);display:inline">If you have another example that you want to propose for X3D Example archives, we are always happy to review and consider together on mailing list. Thanks for your scrutiny
and development efforts.</span></div>
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<p style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New";line-height:1.5">all the best, Don</span></p>
<p style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New";line-height:1.5">--<span> </span></span></p>
<p style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New";line-height:1.5">Don Brutzman Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br <span> </span><span dir="ltr" style="color:rgb(0,120,212)"><a href="mailto:brutzman@nps.edu" target="_blank">brutzman@nps.edu</a></span></span></p>
<p style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New";line-height:1.5">Watkins 270, MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA <span> </span><span dir="ltr" style="color:rgb(0,120,212)">+1.831.656.2149</span></span></p>
<div style="margin:0px 0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New";line-height:1.5">X3D graphics, virtual worlds, Navy robotics
</span><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New";line-height:1.5"><span dir="ltr" style="color:rgb(0,120,212)"><a href="https://faculty.nps.edu/brutzman" target="_blank">https://faculty.nps.edu/brutzman</a></span></span></div>
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<div id="m_4062189023201499713divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" style="font-size:11pt" color="#000000"><b>From:</b> John Carlson <<a href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com" target="_blank">yottzumm@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, December 5, 2022 11:25:03 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <<a href="mailto:brutzman@nps.edu" target="_blank">brutzman@nps.edu</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> X3D Public Mailing List (<a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org" target="_blank">x3d-public@web3d.org</a>) <<a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org" target="_blank">x3d-public@web3d.org</a>>; <a href="mailto:h-anim@web3d.org" target="_blank">h-anim@web3d.org</a> <<a href="mailto:h-anim@web3d.org" target="_blank">h-anim@web3d.org</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [x3d-public] Mantis 1410: HAnimHumanoid skin definitions have no way to assign textures</font>
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<span style="color:yellow">NPS WARNING:</span> *external sender* verify before acting.</div>
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<div dir="auto">Don, my comment was more about examples in HAnim 2 Standard Annex. If one wants to put an example with skin in the HAnim 2 annexes, that would be great. You have identified a problem with the body of the standard, I have identified a problem
with annex.</div>
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<div dir="auto">I do not know a way to handle cases where there is an unmentioned field. I haven’t checked Joe Kick yet.<br>
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<div dir="auto">But yeah, conscientious attitudes are welcome too. We’re playing the long game. I feel very bad about not being able to read everything.</div>
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<div dir="auto">A skin field is welcome! I will add to Mantis.</div>
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<div dir="auto">CFE?</div>
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<div dir="auto">John</div>
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<div dir="ltr">On Mon, Dec 5, 2022 at 12:08 AM Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <<a href="mailto:brutzman@nps.edu" target="_blank">brutzman@nps.edu</a>> wrote:<br>
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<p>Hi John. We use Mantis for tracking possible issues in the specifications.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p>The problem in the X3D4 specification appears to be that there is no way to assign textures to skin geometry.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p>The Mantis issue (copied into this email) also proposes a solution that fixes the problem.<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New""><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New"">all the best, Don<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New"">--
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New"">Don Brutzman Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br
<a href="mailto:brutzman@nps.edu" target="_blank">brutzman@nps.edu</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New"">Watkins 270, MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA +1.831.656.2149<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New"">X3D graphics, virtual worlds, Navy robotics https://</span>
<span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New""><a href="http://faculty.nps.edu/brutzman" target="_blank">faculty.nps.edu/brutzman</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<div style="border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-top:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p><b>From:</b> John Carlson <<a href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com" target="_blank">yottzumm@gmail.com</a>>
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, December 4, 2022 9:37 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <<a href="mailto:brutzman@nps.edu" target="_blank">brutzman@nps.edu</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> X3D Public Mailing List (<a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org" target="_blank">x3d-public@web3d.org</a>) <<a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org" target="_blank">x3d-public@web3d.org</a>>;
<a href="mailto:h-anim@web3d.org" target="_blank">h-anim@web3d.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [x3d-public] Mantis 1410: HAnimHumanoid skin definitions have no way to assign textures<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p>There is no derivation that i see.<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p>On Sun, Dec 4, 2022 at 11:33 PM John Carlson <<a href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com" target="_blank">yottzumm@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p>Don, I did notice that there were no skins on an HAnim Motion 2 example. I will check the repository again tomorrow.<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p>Is Joe Kick ok?<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p>Do HAnim nodes derive from some Shape type?<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p>John<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p>On Sun, Dec 4, 2022 at 6:14 PM Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <<a href="mailto:brutzman@nps.edu" target="_blank">brutzman@nps.edu</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p>Joe and I were working with various HAnim models today (using X3D-Edit!) and found an important
<a href="https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fproblem.no%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cbrutzman%40nps.edu%7C6c5c6822e4d04c6927b408dad6f670f1%7C6d936231a51740ea9199f7578963378e%7C0%7C0%7C638058651195496943%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=gLQE6TWzlpmxxlJhg3ty39uHP9YeLuwaR5x%2Bfqs0WV0%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank">
problem.no</a><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p> <u></u><u></u></p>
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<p> <u></u><u></u></p>
<ul type="disc">
<li>Mantis <span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:black;background:rgb(243,243,243)">
1410: HAnimHumanoid skin definitions have no way to assign textures</span><u></u><u></u></li><li><a href="https://www.web3d.org/member-only/mantis/view.php?id=1410" target="_blank">https://www.web3d.org/member-only/mantis/view.php?id=1410</a><u></u><u></u></li></ul>
<p> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:black;background:rgb(235,235,235)">HAnimHAnimHumanoid skin definitions have no way to assign textures because Shape nodes are not currently allowed in the X3D4 parent-child
node hierarchy.</span><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:black"><br clear="all">
<br clear="all">
<span style="background:rgb(235,235,235)">* X3D4 Architecture, HAnim component, 26.3.2 HAnimHumanoid</span><br clear="all">
<span style="background:rgb(235,235,235)">* <a href="https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4Draft/ISO-IEC19775-1v4-DIS/Part01/components/hanim.html#HAnimHumanoid" target="_blank">https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4Draft/ISO-IEC19775-1v4-DIS/Part01/components/hanim.html#HAnimHumanoid</a></span><br clear="all">
<br clear="all">
<span style="background:rgb(235,235,235)">Relevant field is</span><br clear="all">
<span style="background:rgb(235,235,235)"> MFNode [in,out] skin [] [IndexedFaceSet, IndexedFanSet, IndexedQuadSet, IndexedTriangleSet, IndexedTriangleStripSet]</span><br clear="all">
<br clear="all">
<span style="background:rgb(235,235,235)">It is possible to assign color values, through use of Color or ColorRGBA nodes within IndexedFaceSet, for example. However, because Shape is not permitted, there is no way to assign corresponding Appearance with either Material
or ImageTexture.</span></span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:black;background:rgb(235,235,235)"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:black;background:rgb(243,243,243)">The following example shows animated skin with a texture, playable in X_ITE (and X3DOM and BSContact) players.</span><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:black"><br clear="all">
<br clear="all">
<span style="background:rgb(243,243,243)">* X3D Example Archives: Humanoid Animation, Characters, Joe Kick</span><br clear="all">
<span style="background:rgb(243,243,243)">* </span></span><a href="https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/HumanoidAnimation/Characters/JoeKickIndex.html" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:royalblue;background:rgb(243,243,243);text-decoration:none">https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/HumanoidAnimation/Characters/JoeKickIndex.html</span></a><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:black"><br clear="all">
<br clear="all">
<span style="background:rgb(243,243,243)">Excerpt:</span><br clear="all">
<span style="background:rgb(243,243,243)"><Shape DEF='Joe_Shape' containerField='skin'></span><br clear="all">
<span style="background:rgb(243,243,243)"> <Appearance DEF='Joe_skin_Appearance'></span><br clear="all">
<span style="background:rgb(243,243,243)"> <Material DEF='Joe_skin_Material' diffuseColor='0.3 0.3 0.6' emissiveColor='0.3 0.3 0.6'/></span><br clear="all">
<span style="background:rgb(243,243,243)"> <ImageTexture DEF='JoeSkinImageTexture'</span><br clear="all">
<span style="background:rgb(243,243,243)"> url=' "JoeBodyTexture29.png" "</span></span><a href="https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/HumanoidAnimation/Characters/JoeBodyTexture29.png%22" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:royalblue;background:rgb(243,243,243);text-decoration:none">https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/HumanoidAnimation/Characters/JoeBodyTexture29.png"</span></a><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:black;background:rgb(243,243,243)"> '/></span><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:black"><br clear="all">
<span style="background:rgb(243,243,243)"> <!-- ROUTE information for KickTextureTransform node: [from SkinInterpolator.value_changed to rotation ] --></span><br clear="all">
<span style="background:rgb(243,243,243)"> <TextureTransform DEF='KickTextureTransform'/></span><br clear="all">
<span style="background:rgb(243,243,243)"> </Appearance></span><br clear="all">
<span style="background:rgb(243,243,243)"> <IndexedFaceSet DEF='Joe_skin_IndexedFaceSet' etc.</span><br clear="all">
<span style="background:rgb(243,243,243)"> <Coordinate DEF='Joe_SkinCoord' point= etc.</span><br clear="all">
<span style="background:rgb(243,243,243)"> <TextureCoordinate point='0 0 0.5 0.5 0.5 0 0 0.5'/></span><br clear="all">
<span style="background:rgb(243,243,243)"> </IndexedFaceSet></span><br clear="all">
<span style="background:rgb(243,243,243)"></Shape></span></span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:black;background:rgb(243,243,243)"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:black;background:rgb(235,235,235)">HAnim specification says</span><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:black"><br clear="all">
<br clear="all">
<span style="background:rgb(235,235,235)">* HAnim specification version 2 volume 1, 6 Object interfaces, 6.2 Humanoid</span><br clear="all">
<span style="background:rgb(235,235,235)">* </span></span><a href="https://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19774/V2.0/Architecture/ObjectInterfaces.html#Humanoid" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:royalblue;background:rgb(235,235,235);text-decoration:none">https://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19774/V2.0/Architecture/ObjectInterfaces.html#Humanoid</span></a><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:black"><br clear="all">
<br clear="all">
<span style="background:rgb(235,235,235)">sequence<Object> skin [] <b>[indexed mesh objects as defined by the representation]</b></span></span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:black;background:rgb(235,235,235)"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:black;background:rgb(235,235,235)">An example “representation" for HAnim is X3D.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:black;background:rgb(243,243,243)">Possible fix:</span><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:black"><br clear="all">
<span style="background:rgb(243,243,243)">a. Allow Shape node, in addition to IndexedFaceSet etc. (Matching Joe's example)</span><br clear="all">
<span style="background:rgb(243,243,243)">b. Note in the X3D4 specification prose that such a Shape node must contain one of those same nodes (IFS, ITS etc.). That will allow identical geometry capabilities that are currently clearly defined.</span></span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:black;background:rgb(243,243,243)"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:black;background:rgb(243,243,243)">Note that the animated Korean characters did not display such a problem because they are apparently textures are part of HAnimSegment that
is animated, which is part of skeleton field hierarchy, and not part of skin field. For example,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<ul type="disc">
<li>X3D Example Archives: Humanoid Animation, Characters, Jin LOA 4<u></u><u></u></li><li>Articulated 3D game character designed with a general graphics tool, then converted into an X3D HAnim model.<u></u><u></u></li><li><a href="https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/HumanoidAnimation/Characters/JinLOA4Index.html" target="_blank">https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/HumanoidAnimation/Characters/JinLOA4Index.html</a><u></u><u></u></li></ul>
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<p> <u></u><u></u></p>
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<p> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p>We recommend<u></u><u></u></p>
<ul type="disc">
<li>Taking a generous view of HAnim2 wording “<b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:black;background:rgb(235,235,235)">[indexed mesh objects as defined by the representation]”</span></b><u></u><u></u></li><li>to allow identical usage of a Shape node, thus ensuring that textures are possible on animated human skin.<u></u><u></u></li><li>Such an approach is already demonstrated in our examples, so it is feasible and expected.<u></u><u></u></li></ul>
<p> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p>Sincerely yours, Joe and Don.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New""> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New"">all the best, Don</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New"">--
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New"">Don Brutzman Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br
<a href="mailto:brutzman@nps.edu" target="_blank">brutzman@nps.edu</a></span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New"">Watkins 270, MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA +1.831.656.2149</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New"">X3D graphics, virtual worlds, Navy robotics https://</span>
<span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New""><a href="http://faculty.nps.edu/brutzman" target="_blank">faculty.nps.edu/brutzman</a></span><u></u><u></u></p>
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