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--></style></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink="#954F72" style='word-wrap:break-word'><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal>Excellent progress, sure, but the translation is not working with many failures. </p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>The new one I sent has many distracting ‘errors’ fixed and will be a better place to restart. From the looks of what is there now, we will be long time untangling it. </p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><a href="https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/HumanoidAnimation/Characters/JoeSkeletonSiteSkinSaluteWalkIndex.html" target="_blank">https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/HumanoidAnimation/Characters/JoeSkeletonSiteSkinSaluteWalkIndex.html</a><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><ul style='margin-top:0in' type=disc><li class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:0in;mso-list:l3 level1 lfo7'>This example is not working yet on the site. No skin, and it looks messed up.<o:p></o:p></li></ul><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Thanks, </p><p class=MsoNormal>Joe</p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div style='mso-element:para-border-div;border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal style='border:none;padding:0in'><b>From: </b><a href="mailto:brutzman@nps.edu">Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV)</a><br><b>Sent: </b>Tuesday, December 6, 2022 2:16 AM<br><b>To: </b><a href="mailto:joedwil@earthlink.net">Joseph D Williams</a>; <a href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com">John Carlson</a><br><b>Cc: </b><a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org">X3D Public Mailing List (x3d-public@web3d.org)</a>; <a href="mailto:h-anim@web3d.org">h-anim@web3d.org</a>; <a href="mailto:brutzman@nps.edu">Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV)</a><br><b>Subject: </b>RE: [x3d-public] Mantis 1410: HAnimHumanoid skin definitions havenoway to assign textures</p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Joe, I thought we made excellent progress on improving both diagnostics and tools in last session. It was also impressive to see how well the view3dscene converter did, we will likely have some suggestions for Michalis on this when our conversion review and improvements are complete.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Prefer not to start over – we are three hours into that task, and also found a specification gap! Hoping to continue, informed by your original model in VRML.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Each correction we make that fixes or prevents similar future difficulties gets us another tiny step forward to high-quality HAnim modeling and animation. It is further great to finally be able to use X3D-Edit again to test and apply these fixes.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><ul style='margin-top:0in' type=disc><li class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'>X3D-Edit 4.0 Beta Distribution, 2 December 2022<o:p></o:p></li><li class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'>https://sourceforge.net/projects/x3d/files<o:p></o:p></li></ul><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>Onward we go, have fun with X3D HAnim.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>all the best, Don<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>-- <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>Don Brutzman Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br brutzman@nps.edu<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>Watkins 270, MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA +1.831.656.2149<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>X3D graphics, virtual worlds, Navy robotics https://</span> <span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>faculty.nps.edu/brutzman<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b>From:</b> Joseph D Williams <joedwil@earthlink.net> <br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, December 5, 2022 5:00 PM<br><b>To:</b> John Carlson <yottzumm@gmail.com>; Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <brutzman@nps.edu><br><b>Cc:</b> X3D Public Mailing List (x3d-public@web3d.org) <x3d-public@web3d.org>; h-anim@web3d.org<br><b>Subject:</b> RE: [x3d-public] Mantis 1410: HAnimHumanoid skin definitions haveno way to assign textures<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div style='border:solid #004679 1.0pt;padding:2.0pt 2.0pt 2.0pt 2.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='line-height:12.0pt;background:#004679'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:yellow'>NPS WARNING: *external sender* verify before acting.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><a href="https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/HumanoidAnimation/Characters/JoeSkeletonSiteSkinSaluteWalkIndex.html" target="_blank">https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/HumanoidAnimation/Characters/JoeSkeletonSiteSkinSaluteWalkIndex.html</a><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>This example is not working yet on the site. No skin, and it looks messed up.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>OF course I have done some work on the thing, so let’s just toss that one and restart with the attached? <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>This was transcoded from .x3dv into the xml and I was very surprised to find out that numbers have changed. Please don’t change or refine numbers in my user code. Esp just to change resolution from ok and usable to silly, unless it is actually needed. Looking at the converted user code, it was inflated fantastically by the diff: <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Original:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>coord DEF TheSkinCoord Coordinate { point [<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>0.0 1.77 0.0, 0.0 1.665 0.09, <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>-0.033 1.62 0.087, 0.033 1.62 0.087<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Converted: <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><Coordinate DEF='JoeSkinCoord' point='<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>0 1.7699999809265137 0 0 1.6649999618530273 0.090000003576278687 -0.032999999821186066 1.6200000047683716 0.086999997496604919<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>So, to me, if I put in 0.087 I don’t want to get 0.086999997496604919 back. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Or, why do I really want that expansion of printed resolution from 2 to 18 digits? <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>I hope we can agree that this is, on the basic Humanoid level, needless precision. Believe it or not, some of this stuff is worth reading with the original intent instead of padding. Please don’t change my numbers in the transcoding process. Especially for examples showing specifications, we will naturally want to use the same numbers as might appear in some printed table in reasonable resolution. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Please don’t touch my numbers<span style='font-family:"Segoe UI Emoji",sans-serif'>😊</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Thanks and Best, <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Joe<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b>From: </b><a href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com">John Carlson</a><br><b>Sent: </b>Monday, December 5, 2022 3:09 PM<br><b>To: </b><a href="mailto:brutzman@nps.edu">Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV)</a><br><b>Cc: </b><a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org">X3D Public Mailing List (x3d-public@web3d.org)</a>; <a href="mailto:h-anim@web3d.org">h-anim@web3d.org</a><br><b>Subject: </b>Re: [x3d-public] Mantis 1410: HAnimHumanoid skin definitions haveno way to assign textures<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>Found in note in Mantis 1410: There was an issue with "HAnimHAnimHumanoid". Misspelling?<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Mon, Dec 5, 2022 at 3:32 PM Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <<a href="mailto:brutzman@nps.edu">brutzman@nps.edu</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.2in'>John,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.2in'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.2in'>1. Please contact Web3D Executive Director Anita Havele (email or web3d contact page) regarding access problems. There is a 2-step login for members. Please do not modify any Mantis issues, we use mailing list for discussions.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.2in'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.2in'>2. There is another “Joe” example from 2004 that (real) Joe and I have been working on upgrading to X3D.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.2in'> <o:p></o:p></p><ul type=disc><li class=m1562263099985804851msolistparagraph style='mso-list:l6 level1 lfo2'>X3D Example Archives: Humanoid Animation, Characters, Joe Skeleton Site Skin Salute Walk<o:p></o:p></li><li class=m1562263099985804851msolistparagraph style='mso-list:l6 level1 lfo2'>Attempting to show skeleton, skin, sites and animation<o:p></o:p></li><li class=m1562263099985804851msolistparagraph style='mso-list:l6 level1 lfo2'><a href="https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/HumanoidAnimation/Characters/JoeSkeletonSiteSkinSaluteWalkIndex.html" target="_blank">https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/HumanoidAnimation/Characters/JoeSkeletonSiteSkinSaluteWalkIndex.html</a><o:p></o:p></li></ul><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.2in'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:.2in'>3. If you want to learn X3D Textures, you are welcome to use book slides videos examples:<o:p></o:p></p><ul type=disc><li class=m1562263099985804851msolistparagraph style='mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3'><i><span style='font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black'>X3D Example Archives: </span></i><span style='font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black'>X3D4WA, X3D for Web Authors, Chapter 05 Appearance Material Textures</span><o:p></o:p></li><li class=m1562263099985804851msolistparagraph style='mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3'><a href="https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fx3dgraphics.com%2Fexamples%2FX3dForWebAuthors%2FChapter05AppearanceMaterialTextures%2Findex.html&data=05%7C01%7Cbrutzman%40nps.edu%7C968b0405bdc1487a5b1f08dad72525d1%7C6d936231a51740ea9199f7578963378e%7C0%7C0%7C638058851968145310%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=9wft3MkXHg0WAFFgOyFOeTT7nLtrgBh%2BJMnnWSwbsU8%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank">https://x3dgraphics.com/examples/X3dForWebAuthors/Chapter05AppearanceMaterialTextures/index.html</a><o:p></o:p></li></ul><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.2in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.2in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>all the best, Don</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.2in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>-- </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.2in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>Don Brutzman Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br <a href="mailto:brutzman@nps.edu" target="_blank">brutzman@nps.edu</a></span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.2in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>Watkins 270, MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA +1.831.656.2149</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.2in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>X3D graphics, virtual worlds, Navy robotics https://</span> <span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'><a href="http://faculty.nps.edu/brutzman" target="_blank">faculty.nps.edu/brutzman</a></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.2in'> <o:p></o:p></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.2in'><b>From:</b> John Carlson <<a href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com" target="_blank">yottzumm@gmail.com</a>> <br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, December 5, 2022 12:25 PM<br><b>To:</b> Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <<a href="mailto:brutzman@nps.edu" target="_blank">brutzman@nps.edu</a>><br><b>Cc:</b> X3D Public Mailing List (<a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org" target="_blank">x3d-public@web3d.org</a>) <<a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org" target="_blank">x3d-public@web3d.org</a>>; <a href="mailto:h-anim@web3d.org" target="_blank">h-anim@web3d.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [x3d-public] Mantis 1410: HAnimHumanoid skin definitions have no way to assign textures<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.2in'> <o:p></o:p></p><div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.2in'>I have tried several times to get into Mantis today. It's not unusual for me not to get in. I will use "send a comment" in the future. <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.2in'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.2in'>1. There's no "Joe" example in the HAnim 2 Standards or Annexes. As you say, Joe doesn't doesn't match current standards.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.2in'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.2in'>2. There is a "Joe" example in the archives:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.2in'><a href="https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/HumanoidAnimation/Characters/JoeKickIndex.html" target="_blank">https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/HumanoidAnimation/Characters/JoeKickIndex.html</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.2in'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.2in'>3. I haven't mastered Textures yet. Waiting for integration with Stability.AI, midJourney, etc. Yes, I'm aware of Text-to-Video and Imagen Videos. I also know that there may be Video-to-X3D (recommendations? I've only done my face so far--not a texture.). Yes, I've used variations on a fragment shader.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.2in'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.2in'>4. I'm a bit leary of recording video around the house, maybe I can do some while I am walking!<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.2in'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.2in'> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.2in'> <o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.2in'>On Mon, Dec 5, 2022 at 1:44 PM Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <<a href="mailto:brutzman@nps.edu" target="_blank">brutzman@nps.edu</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.4in'><span style='color:black;background:white'>John, the mantis issue includes two examples already. </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.4in'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.4in'><span style='color:black;background:white'>A. The first by Joe uses "skin" field with a Shape (illegal according to spec), rather than geometry node only (as specified by X3D spec). That is why his example is able to use textures, and that approach seems appropriate for X3D4.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.4in'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.4in'><span style='color:black;background:white'>B. The second Korean-student example uses "skeleton" field with descendant HAnimSegment nodes containing Shape geometry. That is a different approach, long valid, with similar visual effects as "skin" geometry.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.4in'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.4in'><span style='color:black;background:white'>If you have another example that you want to propose for X3D Example archives, we are always happy to review and consider together on mailing list. Thanks for your scrutiny and development efforts.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><div id="m_1562263099985804851m_4062189023201499713ms-outlook-mobile-signature"><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.4in'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p style='margin:0in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>all the best, Don</span></p><p style='margin:0in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>-- </span></p><p style='margin:0in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>Don Brutzman Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br <span style='color:#0078D4'><a href="mailto:brutzman@nps.edu" target="_blank">brutzman@nps.edu</a></span></span></p><p style='margin:0in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>Watkins 270, MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA <span style='color:#0078D4'>+1.831.656.2149</span></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.4in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>X3D graphics, virtual worlds, Navy robotics <span style='color:#0078D4'><a href="https://faculty.nps.edu/brutzman" target="_blank">https://faculty.nps.edu/brutzman</a></span></span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal align=center style='margin-left:.4in;text-align:center'><img border=0 width=503 height=2 style='width:5.2416in;height:.025in' id="Horizontal_x0020_Line_x0020_1" src="cid:image003.png@01D90934.529B9E60"><o:p></o:p></p><div id="m_1562263099985804851m_4062189023201499713divRplyFwdMsg"><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.4in'><b><span style='color:black'>From:</span></b><span style='color:black'> John Carlson <<a href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com" target="_blank">yottzumm@gmail.com</a>><br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, December 5, 2022 11:25:03 AM<br><b>To:</b> Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <<a href="mailto:brutzman@nps.edu" target="_blank">brutzman@nps.edu</a>><br><b>Cc:</b> X3D Public Mailing List (<a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org" target="_blank">x3d-public@web3d.org</a>) <<a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org" target="_blank">x3d-public@web3d.org</a>>; <a href="mailto:h-anim@web3d.org" target="_blank">h-anim@web3d.org</a> <<a href="mailto:h-anim@web3d.org" target="_blank">h-anim@web3d.org</a>><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [x3d-public] Mantis 1410: HAnimHumanoid skin definitions have no way to assign textures</span> <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.4in'> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div style='border:solid #004679 1.0pt;padding:2.0pt 2.0pt 2.0pt 2.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.4in;line-height:12.0pt;background:#004679'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:yellow'>NPS WARNING: *external sender* verify before acting.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.4in'> <o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.4in'>Don, my comment was more about examples in HAnim 2 Standard Annex. If one wants to put an example with skin in the HAnim 2 annexes, that would be great. You have identified a problem with the body of the standard, I have identified a problem with annex.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.4in'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.4in'>I do not know a way to handle cases where there is an unmentioned field. I haven’t checked Joe Kick yet.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.4in'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.4in'>But yeah, conscientious attitudes are welcome too. We’re playing the long game. I feel very bad about not being able to read everything.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.4in'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.4in'>A skin field is welcome! I will add to Mantis.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.4in'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.4in'>CFE?<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.4in'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.4in'>John<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.4in'> <o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.4in'>On Mon, Dec 5, 2022 at 12:08 AM Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <<a href="mailto:brutzman@nps.edu" target="_blank">brutzman@nps.edu</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><p>Hi John. We use Mantis for tracking possible issues in the specifications.</p><p> </p><p>The problem in the X3D4 specification appears to be that there is no way to assign textures to skin geometry.</p><p> </p><p>The Mantis issue (copied into this email) also proposes a solution that fixes the problem.</p><div><p><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'> </span></p><p><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>all the best, Don</span></p><p><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>-- </span></p><p><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>Don Brutzman Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br <a href="mailto:brutzman@nps.edu" target="_blank">brutzman@nps.edu</a></span></p><p><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>Watkins 270, MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA +1.831.656.2149</span></p><p><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>X3D graphics, virtual worlds, Navy robotics https://</span> <span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'><a href="http://faculty.nps.edu/brutzman" target="_blank">faculty.nps.edu/brutzman</a></span></p></div><p> </p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p><b>From:</b> John Carlson <<a href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com" target="_blank">yottzumm@gmail.com</a>> <br><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, December 4, 2022 9:37 PM<br><b>To:</b> Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <<a href="mailto:brutzman@nps.edu" target="_blank">brutzman@nps.edu</a>><br><b>Cc:</b> X3D Public Mailing List (<a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org" target="_blank">x3d-public@web3d.org</a>) <<a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org" target="_blank">x3d-public@web3d.org</a>>; <a href="mailto:h-anim@web3d.org" target="_blank">h-anim@web3d.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [x3d-public] Mantis 1410: HAnimHumanoid skin definitions have no way to assign textures</p></div></div><p> </p><div><div><p>There is no derivation that i see.</p></div><div><p> </p><div><div><p>On Sun, Dec 4, 2022 at 11:33 PM John Carlson <<a href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com" target="_blank">yottzumm@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p>Don, I did notice that there were no skins on an HAnim Motion 2 example. I will check the repository again tomorrow.</p></div><div><p> </p></div><div><p>Is Joe Kick ok?</p></div><div><p> </p></div><div><p>Do HAnim nodes derive from some Shape type?</p></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div></div><div><div><div><div><div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p> </p></div><div><p>John</p></div><div><p> </p><div><div><p>On Sun, Dec 4, 2022 at 6:14 PM Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <<a href="mailto:brutzman@nps.edu" target="_blank">brutzman@nps.edu</a>> wrote:</p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><p>Joe and I were working with various HAnim models today (using X3D-Edit!) and found an important <a href="https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fproblem.no%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cbrutzman%40nps.edu%7C968b0405bdc1487a5b1f08dad72525d1%7C6d936231a51740ea9199f7578963378e%7C0%7C0%7C638058851968145310%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=CcmRfpT2QyKuRfs5oIp%2FYzB4KCoKeFRTjNF1gfhOcu0%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank">problem.no</a></p></div></div></blockquote></div></div><div><div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><div style='border:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 1.0pt 0in'><p> </p></div><p> </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.5in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo4'><![if !supportLists]><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>·<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]>Mantis <span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black;background:#F3F3F3'>1410: HAnimHumanoid skin definitions have no way to assign textures</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.5in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo4'><![if !supportLists]><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>·<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><a href="https://www.web3d.org/member-only/mantis/view.php?id=1410" target="_blank">https://www.web3d.org/member-only/mantis/view.php?id=1410</a><o:p></o:p></p><p> </p><p><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black;background:#EBEBEB'>HAnimHAnimHumanoid skin definitions have no way to assign textures because Shape nodes are not currently allowed in the X3D4 parent-child node hierarchy.</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'><br clear=all><br clear=all><span style='background:#EBEBEB'>* X3D4 Architecture, HAnim component, 26.3.2 HAnimHumanoid</span><br clear=all><span style='background:#EBEBEB'>* <a href="https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4Draft/ISO-IEC19775-1v4-DIS/Part01/components/hanim.html#HAnimHumanoid" target="_blank">https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4Draft/ISO-IEC19775-1v4-DIS/Part01/components/hanim.html#HAnimHumanoid</a></span><br clear=all><br clear=all><span style='background:#EBEBEB'>Relevant field is</span><br clear=all><span style='background:#EBEBEB'> MFNode [in,out] skin [] [IndexedFaceSet, IndexedFanSet, IndexedQuadSet, IndexedTriangleSet, IndexedTriangleStripSet]</span><br clear=all><br clear=all><span style='background:#EBEBEB'>It is possible to assign color values, through use of Color or ColorRGBA nodes within IndexedFaceSet, for example. However, because Shape is not permitted, there is no way to assign corresponding Appearance with either Material or ImageTexture.</span></span></p><p><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black;background:#EBEBEB'> </span></p><p><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black;background:#F3F3F3'>The following example shows animated skin with a texture, playable in X_ITE (and X3DOM and BSContact) players.</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'><br clear=all><br clear=all><span style='background:#F3F3F3'>* X3D Example Archives: Humanoid Animation, Characters, Joe Kick</span><br clear=all><span style='background:#F3F3F3'>* </span></span><a href="https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/HumanoidAnimation/Characters/JoeKickIndex.html" target="_blank"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:royalblue;background:#F3F3F3'>https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/HumanoidAnimation/Characters/JoeKickIndex.html</span></a><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'><br clear=all><br clear=all><span style='background:#F3F3F3'>Excerpt:</span><br clear=all><span style='background:#F3F3F3'><Shape DEF='Joe_Shape' containerField='skin'></span><br clear=all><span style='background:#F3F3F3'> <Appearance DEF='Joe_skin_Appearance'></span><br clear=all><span style='background:#F3F3F3'> <Material DEF='Joe_skin_Material' diffuseColor='0.3 0.3 0.6' emissiveColor='0.3 0.3 0.6'/></span><br clear=all><span style='background:#F3F3F3'> <ImageTexture DEF='JoeSkinImageTexture'</span><br clear=all><span style='background:#F3F3F3'> url=' "JoeBodyTexture29.png" "</span></span><a href="https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/HumanoidAnimation/Characters/JoeBodyTexture29.png%22" target="_blank"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:royalblue;background:#F3F3F3'>https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/HumanoidAnimation/Characters/JoeBodyTexture29.png"</span></a><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black;background:#F3F3F3'> '/></span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'><br clear=all><span style='background:#F3F3F3'> <!-- ROUTE information for KickTextureTransform node: [from SkinInterpolator.value_changed to rotation ] --></span><br clear=all><span style='background:#F3F3F3'> <TextureTransform DEF='KickTextureTransform'/></span><br clear=all><span style='background:#F3F3F3'> </Appearance></span><br clear=all><span style='background:#F3F3F3'> <IndexedFaceSet DEF='Joe_skin_IndexedFaceSet' etc.</span><br clear=all><span style='background:#F3F3F3'> <Coordinate DEF='Joe_SkinCoord' point= etc.</span><br clear=all><span style='background:#F3F3F3'> <TextureCoordinate point='0 0 0.5 0.5 0.5 0 0 0.5'/></span><br clear=all><span style='background:#F3F3F3'> </IndexedFaceSet></span><br clear=all><span style='background:#F3F3F3'></Shape></span></span></p><p><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black;background:#F3F3F3'> </span></p><p><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black;background:#EBEBEB'>HAnim specification says</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'><br clear=all><br clear=all><span style='background:#EBEBEB'>* HAnim specification version 2 volume 1, 6 Object interfaces, 6.2 Humanoid</span><br clear=all><span style='background:#EBEBEB'>* </span></span><a href="https://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19774/V2.0/Architecture/ObjectInterfaces.html#Humanoid" target="_blank"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:royalblue;background:#EBEBEB'>https://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19774/V2.0/Architecture/ObjectInterfaces.html#Humanoid</span></a><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'><br clear=all><br clear=all><span style='background:#EBEBEB'>sequence<Object> skin [] <b>[indexed mesh objects as defined by the representation]</b></span></span></p><p><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black;background:#EBEBEB'> </span></p><p><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black;background:#EBEBEB'>An example “representation" for HAnim is X3D.</span></p><p><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black;background:#F3F3F3'>Possible fix:</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'><br clear=all><span style='background:#F3F3F3'>a. Allow Shape node, in addition to IndexedFaceSet etc. (Matching Joe's example)</span><br clear=all><span style='background:#F3F3F3'>b. Note in the X3D4 specification prose that such a Shape node must contain one of those same nodes (IFS, ITS etc.). That will allow identical geometry capabilities that are currently clearly defined.</span></span></p><p><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black;background:#F3F3F3'> </span></p><p><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black;background:#F3F3F3'>Note that the animated Korean characters did not display such a problem because they are apparently textures are part of HAnimSegment that is animated, which is part of skeleton field hierarchy, and not part of skin field. For example,</span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.5in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l4 level1 lfo5'><![if !supportLists]><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>·<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]>X3D Example Archives: Humanoid Animation, Characters, Jin LOA 4<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.5in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l4 level1 lfo5'><![if !supportLists]><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>·<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]>Articulated 3D game character designed with a general graphics tool, then converted into an X3D HAnim model.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.5in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l4 level1 lfo5'><![if !supportLists]><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>·<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><a href="https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/HumanoidAnimation/Characters/JinLOA4Index.html" target="_blank">https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/HumanoidAnimation/Characters/JinLOA4Index.html</a><o:p></o:p></p><div style='border:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 1.0pt 0in'><p> </p></div><p> </p><p>We recommend</p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.5in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l5 level1 lfo6'><![if !supportLists]><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>·<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]>Taking a generous view of HAnim2 wording “<b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black;background:#EBEBEB'>[indexed mesh objects as defined by the representation]”</span></b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.5in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l5 level1 lfo6'><![if !supportLists]><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>·<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]>to allow identical usage of a Shape node, thus ensuring that textures are possible on animated human skin.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.5in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l5 level1 lfo6'><![if !supportLists]><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>·<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]>Such an approach is already demonstrated in our examples, so it is feasible and expected.<o:p></o:p></p><p> </p><p>Sincerely yours, Joe and Don.</p><p> </p><p><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'> </span></p><p><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>all the best, Don</span></p><p><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>-- </span></p><p><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>Don Brutzman Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br <a href="mailto:brutzman@nps.edu" target="_blank">brutzman@nps.edu</a></span></p><p><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>Watkins 270, MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA +1.831.656.2149</span></p><p><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>X3D graphics, virtual worlds, Navy robotics https://</span> <span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'><a href="http://faculty.nps.edu/brutzman" target="_blank">faculty.nps.edu/brutzman</a></span></p><p> </p></div></div></blockquote></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><p style='margin-left:24.0pt'>_______________________________________________<br>x3d-public mailing list<br><a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org" target="_blank">x3d-public@web3d.org</a><br><a href="http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org" target="_blank">http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org</a></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></body></html>