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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple style='word-wrap:break-word'><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal>Very interesting and important discussion. Thank you Holger and Joe.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>As an author, similar to explicitly providing texture coordinates, I’d expect that texture coordinate precomputation would be a one-time occurrence. This is important to avoid unexpected computational expense during animated rendering, and also provide consistent texture display throughout any user navigation or animation.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Recomputing texture coordinate based on any changes in the mesh (number of coords, number of polygons) certainly seems sensible and typical. FWIW, I think we haven’t encountered this issue before because HAnimHumanoid <i><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>skin</span></i> animation is essentially implicit, following along wherever the <i><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>skeleton</span></i> joints are moved. Am expecting that we might encounter a similar issue again when we have further practice animating <i><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>skeleton</span></i> joints using HAnimMotion node.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Nevertheless, when texture coordinates are not provided (a useful reduction in file size and complexity), any ambiguity of determining S and T axes seems problematic. We need to address any ambiguities. Note that browser frame rates might change bounding box proportions and thus become determining factor for whether such S, T axis flips. This would change the displayed model (which is what we are currently seeing in the example) either for multiple browsers or even a single browser operating at different frame rates. Such unpredictable differences are contrary to X3D design principle that a model is sufficiently well defined so that it looks and animates and interacts consistently across different hardware/software/display combinations.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>X3D4 Draft International Specification (DIS) references:<o:p></o:p></p><ul style='margin-top:0in' type=disc><li class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:0in;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo3'>X3D4 Architecture, Texturing component, 18.2.3 Texture coordinates<o:p></o:p></li><li class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:0in;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo3'>https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4Draft/ISO-IEC19775-1v4-DIS/Part01/components/texturing.html#TextureCoordinates<o:p></o:p></li></ul><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><ul style='margin-top:0in' type=disc><li class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:0in;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo3'>X3D4 Architecture, Texturing component, 13.3.6 IndexedFaceSet<o:p></o:p></li><li class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:0in;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo3'>https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4Draft/ISO-IEC19775-1v4-DIS/Part01/components/geometry3D.html<o:p></o:p></li><li class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:0in;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo3'>Scrolling down… key paragraph of interest: <o:p></o:p></li><li class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:0in;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo3'>“If the texCoord field is NULL, a default texture coordinate mapping is calculated using the local coordinate system bounding box of the shape. The longest dimension of the bounding box defines the S coordinates, and the next longest defines the T coordinates. If two or all three dimensions of the bounding box are equal, ties shall be broken by choosing the X, Y, or Z dimension in that order of preference. The value of the S coordinate ranges from 0 to 1, from one end of the bounding box to the other. The T coordinate ranges between 0 and the ratio of the second greatest dimension of the bounding box to the greatest dimension.”<o:p></o:p></li></ul><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Holger, from your message quoting the above, it looks like you consider the <i><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>texCoord</span></i> field is no longer NULL once initial computation has occurred, and thus eligible for recomputation. Hmmm.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>To avoid mixed expectations, perhaps we can add clarifications to above X3D4 prose. What if we say something like the following suggestions:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><ul style='margin-top:0in' type=disc><li class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:0in;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo3'>(first sentence) “If the <span style='background:yellow;mso-highlight:yellow'>provided</span> texCoord field is NULL, a default texture coordinate mapping is calculated using the local coordinate system bounding box of the <span style='background:yellow;mso-highlight:yellow'>initially</span> <span style='background:yellow;mso-highlight:yellow'>provided</span> shape.”<o:p></o:p></li></ul><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><ul style='margin-top:0in' type=disc><li class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:0in;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo3'>(append after last sentence in paragraph quoted above) “<span style='background:yellow;mso-highlight:yellow'>If the underly mesh is changed (number of coordinates, number of polygons, etc.) then original texture coordinate mappings must be reapplied (if initial texCoord field is provided) or else recomputed (if provided texCoord field is NULL).</span>” <o:p></o:p></li></ul><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Any objections, or any improvements please?<br><br><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Michalis, please advise if a similar issue might also occur in glTF and how it might get handled. Perhaps there is an omission in our updated X3D4 rendering-model parameters?<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Other alternatives welcome. TIA for considering completeness and correctness to properly handle this important specification omission.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>p.s. Request that we try to resolve the problem this week, so that it can be recorded in Mantis and included in the upcoming X3D4 DIS specification editors meeting.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>all the best, Don<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>-- <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>Don Brutzman Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br brutzman@nps.edu<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>Watkins 270, MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA +1.831.656.2149<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>X3D graphics, virtual worlds, Navy robotics https://</span> <span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>faculty.nps.edu/brutzman<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b>From:</b> x3d-public <x3d-public-bounces@web3d.org> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Holger Seelig<br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, January 4, 2023 7:35 AM<br><b>To:</b> Joseph D Williams <joedwil@earthlink.net><br><b>Cc:</b> X3D <x3d-public@web3d.org><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [x3d-public] X3DCanvas vs x3d-canvas, X_ITE - conversion stylesheet results<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Hi Joe, but this is not what spec say, reading it strictly. Your approach has some caveats. The text coords should be calculated once. But what happens when the number of coords changes, or the num triangles or quads, or polygons. It is no more easy to determine when the tex coords should be regenerated.<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Holger<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal>Am 04.01.2023 um 16:06 schrieb Joseph D Williams <<a href="mailto:joedwil@earthlink.net">joedwil@earthlink.net</a>>:<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black;background:white'>>> "The longest dimension of the bounding box defines the S coordinates, and the next longest defines the T coordinates."</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Hi Holger, I certainly agree with this, but not during animation. We would use the default mapping once, for the default pose, then the same after animation begins. Again, the way it is showing is a neat effect, but not realistic, since the texture should stay mapped to the default pose, not recomputed at each frame.<span class=apple-converted-space> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Thanks,<span class=apple-converted-space> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Joe<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><div><p class=MsoNormal><b>From:<span class=apple-converted-space> </span></b><a href="mailto:holger.seelig@yahoo.de">Holger Seelig</a><br><b>Sent:<span class=apple-converted-space> </span></b>Tuesday, January 3, 2023 3:15 AM<br><b>To:<span class=apple-converted-space> </span></b><a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org">X3D</a><br><b>Subject:<span class=apple-converted-space> </span></b>Re: [x3d-public] X3DCanvas vs x3d-canvas,X_ITE - conversion stylesheet results<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>X_ITE does exactly what is documented here <a href="https://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19775-1/V4.0/Part01/components/geometry3D.html#f-IndexedFaceSettextureDefaultMapping">https://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19775-1/V4.0/Part01/components/geometry3D.html#f-IndexedFaceSettextureDefaultMapping</a> to automatically calculate tex coords.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black;background:white'>>> "The longest dimension of the bounding box defines the S coordinates, and the next longest defines the T coordinates."</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>In your example the longest dimension is as we can see the Y-axis, but the next longest dimension will change when the IFS is animated, sometimes it is the X-axis and sometimes it is the Z-axis. (You can see a flip)<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Second, because the IFS is animated the tex coords will always change. (You see the texture moving)<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Here are the lines how X_ITE does the calc: <a href="https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fcreate3000%2Fx_ite%2Fblob%2Fad74f5212dae83c436bf0fc25eb4ac471301ae50%2Fsrc%2Fx_ite%2FComponents%2FRendering%2FX3DGeometryNode.js%23L357&data=05%7C01%7Cbrutzman%40nps.edu%7Cd57ea83a60a340887a9a08daee695807%7C6d936231a51740ea9199f7578963378e%7C0%7C0%7C638084434401874318%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=NOyF%2Fwv1SYPvhd8lOXG8km3NlNMfVkWZb%2BTgtrSXo8g%3D&reserved=0">https://github.com/create3000/x_ite/blob/ad74f5212dae83c436bf0fc25eb4ac471301ae50/src/x_ite/Components/Rendering/X3DGeometryNode.js#L357</a><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Please have a look at it. I cannot find a bug.<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Best regards,<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Holger<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><br><br><br><o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Am 02.01.2023 um 18:58 schrieb Joseph D Williams <<a href="mailto:joedwil@earthlink.net">joedwil@earthlink.net</a>>:<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><a href="https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/HumanoidAnimation/Skin/JoeSkeletonSkinSiteSaluteWalkIndex.html">Humanoid Animation X3D Examples Archive, Skin, Joe Skeleton Skin Site Salute Walk (web3d.org)</a><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Notice how skin moves around with animations.<span class=apple-converted-space> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>I still think this is because browser does not honor textCoords, Do I need to make a change to get this to work right when it works correctly in others. As I recall from past, xite doesn’t autogenerate texcoords and needs repeat for every point?<span class=apple-converted-space> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Thanks,<span class=apple-converted-space> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Joe<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b>From:<span class=apple-converted-space> </span></b><a href="mailto:brutzman@nps.edu">Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV)</a><br><b>Sent:<span class=apple-converted-space> </span></b>Saturday, December 31, 2022 2:42 PM<br><b>To:<span class=apple-converted-space> </span></b><a href="mailto:holger.seelig@yahoo.de">Holger Seelig</a><br><b>Cc:<span class=apple-converted-space> </span></b><a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org">X3D</a><br><b>Subject:<span class=apple-converted-space> </span></b>Re: [x3d-public] X3DCanvas vs x3d-canvas,X_ITE - conversion stylesheet results<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>[related topic: upgrading "X3D to X_ITE" stylesheet, to match your announcement]<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Holger, thanks for all of the amazing work that you continue to accomplish.<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>After finishing much other work, I’ve finally been able to update the (newly renamed) X3dToX3domX_ITE.xslt stylesheet to support your use of <x3d-canvas> element.<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Apologies for delays reaching this point. The new version of X_ITE looks good!<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Hoping that you can confirm I’m using your publishing patterns correctly. Might you please check HTML/CSS source for the following developmental example. If there are better ways of doing things please advise.<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><ul style='margin-top:0in' type=disc><li class=MsoPlainText style='margin-top:0in;margin-bottom:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><i><span style='font-family:"Times New Roman",serif'>X3D Example Archives: </span></i><span style='font-family:"Times New Roman",serif'>Humanoid Animation, Skin, Joe Skeleton Skin Site Salute Walk</span><o:p></o:p></li><li class=MsoPlainText style='margin-top:0in;margin-bottom:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><a href="https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/HumanoidAnimation/Skin/JoeSkeletonSkinSiteSaluteWalkIndex.html">https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/HumanoidAnimation/Skin/JoeSkeletonSkinSiteSaluteWalkIndex.html</a><o:p></o:p></li><li class=MsoPlainText style='margin-top:0in;margin-bottom:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><a href="https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/HumanoidAnimation/Skin/JoeSkeletonSkinSiteSaluteWalkX_ITE.html">https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/HumanoidAnimation/Skin/JoeSkeletonSkinSiteSaluteWalkX_ITE.html</a><o:p></o:p></li><li class=MsoPlainText style='margin-top:0in;margin-bottom:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><a href="https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/HumanoidAnimation/Skin/JoeSkeletonSkinSiteSaluteWalk_X_ITE.png">https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/HumanoidAnimation/Skin/JoeSkeletonSkinSiteSaluteWalk_X_ITE.png</a><o:p></o:p></li></ul><div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>One thing I was not able to figure out… if you unzoom the JoeSkeletonSkinSiteSaluteWalkX_ITE.html page (using 4-arrow button in upper left) there is space for X_ITE Console, to appear as before in prior version. However this feature is no longer working. Am happy to correct it, or omit it, as appropriate.<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <div><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <h3>X_ITE Console</h3><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <p class="x_ite-console"/><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal> </div><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Hmm, reviewing: another thing is that the stylesheet link is still there but without apparent harm. Will try removing that later.<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Having fun with X_ITE, X3D and HTML5! 8)<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>all the best, Don<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>--<span class=apple-converted-space> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Don Brutzman Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br <span class=apple-converted-space> </span><a href="mailto:brutzman@nps.edu">brutzman@nps.edu</a><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Watkins 270, MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA +1.831.656.2149<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>X3D graphics, virtual worlds, Navy robotics https://<span class=apple-converted-space> </span><a href="http://faculty.nps.edu/brutzman">faculty.nps.edu/brutzman</a><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>-----Original Message-----<br>From: x3d-public <<a href="mailto:x3d-public-bounces@web3d.org">x3d-public-bounces@web3d.org</a>> On Behalf Of Holger Seelig<br>Sent: Tuesday, November 1, 2022 8:04 AM<br>To: X3D <<a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org">x3d-public@web3d.org</a>><br>Subject: [x3d-public] X3DCanvas vs x3d-canvas, X_ITE<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>With version 6.0.0, X_ITE uses the new element name <x3d-canvas>, lowercase and with dash. Because X_ITE uses the Custom Element API from JavaScript now. This has the advantages that the element can be created with document.createElement, and is then immediately ready to use :). Other advantage is that the CSS file must not be included anymore.<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>For compatibility the old name can still be used, but we encourage all users to update to the new tag name.<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Best regards,<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Holger<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>x3d-public mailing list<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org">x3d-public@web3d.org</a><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><a href="http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org">http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org</a><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></blockquote></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div></body></html>