<div dir="auto">While I tried to find an issue with the VRML grammar, and i had several misperceptions, and on review, i didn’t find any problems that just “popped out.” Perhaps my dry eyes have worsened.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Perhaps we should provide generation of VRML grammar from X3DUOM, if not done already? We can have thousands of checks of examples against VRML grammar, as you have said. I have not kept track of VRML “stuff.”</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Your thoughts? I know everyone (besides me) is busy.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">I can even try to accomplish myself with existing grammar and X3DUOM. I can try with writing Xslt first, and if that’s too burdensome, possibly start from the JSON schema generator and branch out.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Trying to make this as easy for someone to do as possible, can we make the right implementation choice? What limitations? Declarative implementations seem important.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">I agree that supporting one-offs in X3D Validator is useful and we probably don’t want to support batch web-based validation at this time.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">I have also researched “schema from example” and “grammar from example.” It might be worth applying new AI research to this problem with the right prompt.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Maybe i should apply AI to the JSON schema. Hmm!</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">John </div><div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Jan 5, 2023 at 11:01 AM Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <<a href="mailto:brutzman@nps.edu">brutzman@nps.edu</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div lang="EN-US" link="#0563C1" vlink="#954F72" style="word-wrap:break-word"><div class="m_-3368528117033926924WordSection1"><p class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText">Patrick, thanks for these important insights.<u></u><u></u></p><p class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText">Am looking closely and tracing the grammar. As you know, such grammars are very important because they formally and unambiguously describe what is allowed. Also pretty tricky to follow!<u></u><u></u></p><p class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText"><u></u> <u></u></p><ul style="margin-top:0in" type="disc"><li class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText">Extensible 3D (X3D) encodings, Part 2: Classic VRML encoding Annex A (normative), Grammar<u></u><u></u></li><li class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText"><a href="https://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19776-2/V3.3/Part02/grammar.html" target="_blank">https://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19776-2/V3.3/Part02/grammar.html</a><u></u><u></u></li></ul><p class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText">Am finding following excerpts of interest. Hopefully addition of color-coding helps:<u></u><u></u></p><p class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:.5in"><u></u> <u></u></p><ol style="margin-top:0in" start="1" type="a"><li class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText"><b><span style="color:#548235">node </span></b>::=<u></u><u></u></li></ol><p class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:.5in"> nodeTypeId { <b><span style="color:#c55a11">nodeBody</span></b><span style="color:#c55a11"> </span>} |<u></u><u></u></p><p class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:.5in"> Script { scriptBody } |<u></u><u></u></p><p class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:.5in"> ComposedShader {composedShaderBody} |<u></u><u></u></p><p class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:.5in"> PackagedShader {packagedShaderBody} |<u></u><u></u></p><p class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:.5in"> ShaderProgram {shaderProgramBody} ;<u></u><u></u></p><p class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:.5in"> <u></u><u></u></p><ol style="margin-top:0in" start="2" type="a"><li class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText"><b><span style="color:#c55a11">nodeBody </span></b>::=<u></u><u></u></li></ol><p class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:.5in"> <b><span style="color:red">nodeBodyElement</span></b> |<u></u><u></u></p><p class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:.5in"> <b><span style="color:red">nodeBodyElement</span></b> <b><span style="color:#c55a11">nodeBody</span></b><span style="color:#c55a11"> </span>|<u></u><u></u></p><p class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:.5in"> empty ;<u></u><u></u></p><p class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:.5in"><u></u> <u></u></p><ol style="margin-top:0in" start="3" type="a"><li class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText"><span style="background:aqua">mfnodeValue</span> ::=<u></u><u></u></li></ol><p class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:.5in"> <b><span style="color:#ff33cc">nodeStatement </span></b>|<u></u><u></u></p><p class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:.5in"> [ ] |<u></u><u></u></p><p class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:.5in"> [ <span style="background:fuchsia">nodeStatements</span> ] ;<u></u><u></u></p><p class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText"><u></u> <u></u></p><ol style="margin-top:0in" start="4" type="a"><li class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText"><span style="background:fuchsia">nodeStatements</span> ::=<u></u><u></u></li></ol><p class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:.5in"> <b><span style="color:#ff33cc">nodeStatement</span></b> |<u></u><u></u></p><p class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:.5in"> <b><span style="color:#ff33cc">nodeStatement</span></b> <span style="background:fuchsia">nodeStatements</span> ;<u></u><u></u></p><p class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText"><u></u> <u></u></p><ol style="margin-top:0in" start="5" type="a"><li class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText"><b><span style="color:#ff33cc">nodeStatement</span></b>::=<u></u><u></u></li></ol><p class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:.5in"> <b><span style="color:#548235">node</span></b><span style="color:#548235"> </span>|<u></u><u></u></p><p class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:.5in"> DEF nodeNameId <b><span style="color:#548235">node</span></b><span style="color:#548235"> </span>|<u></u><u></u></p><p class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:.5in"> USE nodeNameId ;<u></u><u></u></p><p class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText"><u></u> <u></u></p><ol style="margin-top:0in" start="6" type="a"><li class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText"><b><span style="color:red">nodeBodyElement </span></b>::=<u></u><u></u></li></ol><p class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:.5in"> initializeOnlyId fieldValue |<u></u><u></u></p><p class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:.5in"> inputOutputId fieldValue |<u></u><u></u></p><p class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:.5in"> initializeOnlyId IS initializeOnlyId |<u></u><u></u></p><p class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:.5in"> inputOnlyId IS inputOnlyId |<u></u><u></u></p><p class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:.5in"> outputOnlyId IS outputOnlyId |<u></u><u></u></p><p class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:.5in"> inputOutputId IS inputOutputId |<u></u><u></u></p><p class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:.5in"> <span style="background:yellow">routeStatement</span> |<u></u><u></u></p><p class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:.5in"> protoStatement ;<u></u><u></u></p><p class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText"><u></u> <u></u></p><ol style="margin-top:0in" start="7" type="a"><li class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText"><span style="background:yellow">routeStatement</span> ::=<u></u><u></u></li></ol><p class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:.5in"> <b>ROUTE</b> nodeNameId . outputOnlyId TO nodeNameId . inputOnlyId ;<u></u><u></u></p><p class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText"><u></u> <u></u></p><ol style="margin-top:0in" start="8" type="a"><li class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText"><i>statement</i> ::=<u></u><u></u></li></ol><p class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:.5in"> <b><span style="color:#ff33cc">nodeStatement</span></b> |<u></u><u></u></p><p class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:.5in"> importStatement |<u></u><u></u></p><p class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:.5in"> exportStatement |<u></u><u></u></p><p class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:.5in"> protoStatement |<u></u><u></u></p><p class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:.5in"> <span style="background:yellow">routeStatement</span> ;<u></u><u></u></p><p class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText"><u></u> <u></u></p><ol style="margin-top:0in" start="9" type="a"><li class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText">sfnodeValue ::=<u></u><u></u></li></ol><p class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:.5in"> <b><span style="color:#ff33cc">nodeStatement </span></b>|<u></u><u></u></p><p class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:.5in"> NULL ;<u></u><u></u></p><p class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:.5in"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText">So it looks like there are several chains of interest as follows:<u></u><u></u></p><p class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText"><u></u> <u></u></p><ol style="margin-top:0in" start="1" type="1"><li class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText"><span style="background:aqua">mfnodeValue</span> > <span style="background:fuchsia">nodeStatements</span> > <b><span style="color:#ff33cc">nodeStatement</span></b> > <b><span style="color:#548235">node </span></b>> nodeTypeId {<b><span style="color:#c55a11"> nodeBody</span></b><span style="color:#c55a11"> </span>} > <b><span style="color:red">nodeBodyElement</span></b> > <span style="background:yellow">routeStatement</span> > <b>ROUTE</b><u></u><u></u></li></ol><p class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:.5in"><u></u> <u></u></p><ol style="margin-top:0in" start="2" type="1"><li class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText">sfnodeValue > <b><span style="color:#ff33cc">nodeStatement </span>> </b>(etc. as shown immediately above in chain 1)<u></u><u></u></li></ol><p class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:.25in"><u></u> <u></u></p><ol style="margin-top:0in" start="3" type="1"><li class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText"><i>statement</i> > <span style="background:yellow">routeStatement</span> > <b>ROUTE</b><u></u><u></u></li></ol><p class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText">From these three chains in ClassicVRML grammar, it appears logical to conclude that <b>ROUTE</b> is allowed to appear wherever an MFNode, SFNode or statement is allowed to appear.<u></u><u></u></p><p class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText">That would be a consistent match with the parent-child relationships defined in X3D XML Schema and DTD.<u></u><u></u></p><p class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText">Hopefully I have the chain of logic correct here. All scrutiny and review is welcome, we definitely need to get this right.<u></u><u></u></p><p class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText">If there is any unintended omission in the Backus-Naur logic here, then great! We can agree now on corrections, and fix any issues in this year’s expected update of the ClassicVRML encoding from X3D3 to X3D4. Correction of converters can also proceed immediately upon achieving consensus.<u></u><u></u></p><p class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText"><u></u> <u></u></p><ul style="margin-top:0in" type="disc"><li class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText">Wikipedia: Backus-Naur form<u></u><u></u></li><li class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText"><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backus-Naur_form" target="_blank">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backus-Naur_form</a><u></u><u></u></li></ul><p class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText">Again thanks for careful strictness, careful checking of model content is one of our greatest strengths.<u></u><u></u></p><p class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText">Have fun with ClassicVRML X3D! 8)<u></u><u></u></p><p class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText">all the best, Don<u></u><u></u></p><p class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText">-- <u></u><u></u></p><p class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText">Don Brutzman Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br <a href="mailto:brutzman@nps.edu" target="_blank">brutzman@nps.edu</a><u></u><u></u></p><p class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText">Watkins 270, MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA +1.831.656.2149<u></u><u></u></p><p class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText">X3D graphics, virtual worlds, Navy robotics https:// <a href="http://faculty.nps.edu/brutzman" target="_blank">faculty.nps.edu/brutzman</a><u></u><u></u></p><p class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText">-----Original Message-----<br>From: x3d-public <<a href="mailto:x3d-public-bounces@web3d.org" target="_blank">x3d-public-bounces@web3d.org</a>> On Behalf Of Patrick Dähne<br>Sent: Thursday, January 5, 2023 3:05 AM<br>To: Joseph D Williams <<a href="mailto:joedwil@earthlink.net" target="_blank">joedwil@earthlink.net</a>><br>Cc: X3D Public Mailing List (<a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org" target="_blank">x3d-public@web3d.org</a>) <<a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org" target="_blank">x3d-public@web3d.org</a>><br>Subject: Re: [x3d-public] [...] HAnim2 X3D4 BoxMan update</p><p class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText">> Am 05.01.2023 um 03:33 schrieb Joseph D Williams <<a href="mailto:joedwil@earthlink.net" target="_blank"><span style="color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">joedwil@earthlink.net</span></a>>:<u></u><u></u></p><p class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText">> <u></u><u></u></p><p class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText">> • Classic VRML does not allow to declare ROUTEs inside MFNode fields. Move them outside.<u></u><u></u></p><p class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText">> <u></u><u></u></p><p class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText">> There may be other x3d Statements and some rules, but I don’t see any spec language for what you describe regarding ROUTE.<u></u><u></u></p><p class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText">The (only) relevant part of the „Classic VRML encoding“ spec is „Annex A: Grammar“:<u></u><u></u></p><p class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText"><a href="https://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19776-2/V3.3/index.html" target="_blank"><span style="color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">https://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19776-2/V3.3/index.html</span></a><u></u><u></u></p><p class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText">The grammar is written in Backus-Naur form. It is the „Scheme“ of classic encoding. Have a look at the rule „mfnodeValue“. You won’t find the symbol „routeStatement“ on the right hand side of that rule.<u></u><u></u></p><p class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText">ROUTEs are only allowed:<u></u><u></u></p><p class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText">1. At the top level of the scene<u></u><u></u></p><p class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText">2. Inside the node body (between fields)<u></u><u></u></p><p class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText">In my opinion it does not make much sense to forbid ROUTEs inside MFNode fields, and I am actually surprised that someone implemented it such strictly.<u></u><u></u></p><p class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText">Bye,<u></u><u></u></p><p class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText">Patrick<u></u><u></u></p><p class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText">_______________________________________________<u></u><u></u></p><p class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText">x3d-public mailing list<u></u><u></u></p><p class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText"><a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org" target="_blank"><span style="color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">x3d-public@web3d.org</span></a><u></u><u></u></p><p class="m_-3368528117033926924MsoPlainText"><a href="http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org" target="_blank"><span style="color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org</span></a><u></u><u></u></p></div></div>_______________________________________________<br>
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</blockquote></div></div>