<div style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12pt"><p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;">please see below </p>
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<p>-----Original Message-----<br>From: Carol McDonald <cemd2@comcast.net><br>Sent: Mar 16, 2024 8:58 AM<br>To: John Carlson <yottzumm@gmail.com>, Joe D Williams <joedwil@earthlink.net>, Katy Schildmeyer KS APPAREL DESIGN <katy@ksappareldesign.com><br>Cc: X3D Graphics public mailing list <x3d-public@web3d.org><br>Subject: Re: HAnim Features Points, 1-120 for your review</p>
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<div style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: helvetica,arial,sans-serif; color: #333333;"><span style="font-family: helvetica; font-size: 12pt;">> Here is the attachment on the first 11 feature points. </span></div>
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<div style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: helvetica,arial,sans-serif; color: #333333;"><span style="font-family: helvetica; font-size: 12pt;">Thank You Getting the Part 1 Annex A up using the latest proposed data for this example of a "Standard" example with example hierarchies, spec names, and example locations,complete foran LOA4 is much needed. </span></div>
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<div style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: helvetica,arial,sans-serif; color: #333333;"><span style="font-family: helvetica; font-size: 12pt;">> The site for the translations do not have points numbered so I added in that column. </span></div>
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<div style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: helvetica,arial,sans-serif; color: #333333;"><span style="font-family: helvetica; font-size: 12pt;">Fine, </span></div>
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<div style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: helvetica,arial,sans-serif; color: #333333;"><span style="font-family: helvetica; font-size: 12pt;">> As you can see from this attachment - the feature points are independent of the joints as it does not matter which LOA that you choose. </span></div>
<div style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: helvetica,arial,sans-serif; color: #333333;"><span style="font-family: helvetica; font-size: 12pt;"> </span></div>
<div style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: helvetica,arial,sans-serif; color: #333333;"><span style="font-family: helvetica; font-size: 12pt;">True, all five loa examples show all surface feature points. It might be to simplify the Annex A by only having one table for listing Site feature points. </span></div>
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<div class="default-style" style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: helvetica,arial,sans-serif; color: #333333;"><span style="font-family: helvetica; font-size: 12pt;">> But questions - during the animation - do the feature points move? How are they bound to the mesh and skin? </span></div>
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<div class="default-style" style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: helvetica,arial,sans-serif; color: #333333;"><span style="font-family: helvetica; font-size: 12pt;">The feature points are implemented as Site nodes that are children of a specific Segment. So, a Site follows Segment motions as controlled by the parent Joint and custom Site animations. A Site can be a sensor or geometry or anything x3d. </span></div>
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<div class="default-style" style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: helvetica,arial,sans-serif; color: #333333;"><span style="font-family: helvetica; font-size: 12pt;">However, for Level 2 'skinned' projects a shortcoming in this architecture may show. The animation for the skin vertex depends upon weighted rotation of bound Joint node(s) and may not exactly match motion of the Site controlled by a Joint node. Thus, in a default pose while it easy to get a visible Site feature associated with a specific skin vertex or area, some extreme, or even typical, animations could cause the Site to move relative to the target skin vertex. (Not a problem with Level 1 Segment geometry.) </span></div>
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<div class="default-style" style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: helvetica,arial,sans-serif; color: #333333;"><span style="font-family: helvetica; font-size: 12pt;">This is a hypothetical problem for Level 2 hanim because it may be that we have better control of position and orientation of a Site node than of a specific skin vertex or skin area. The best solution is to give the author tools to choose. This means upgrading the skin part of the spec to allow the author to assign Site functionality to one or a group of skin mesh points. I don't think this is giant technical jump and for x3d syntax or a browser to implement. </span></div>
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<div class="default-style" style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: helvetica,arial,sans-serif; color: #333333;"><span style="font-family: helvetica; font-size: 12pt;">> If the skin (mesh) breaks during a movement - what happens to the feature point? </span></div>
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<div class="default-style" style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: helvetica,arial,sans-serif; color: #333333;"><span style="font-family: helvetica; font-size: 12pt;">If the skin breaks, there is a different animation problem. </span></div>
<div class="default-style" style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: helvetica,arial,sans-serif; color: #333333;"><span style="font-family: helvetica; font-size: 12pt;">From above, since a skin point position can be controlled independently of related Site position and orientation (with various interlocking dependencies) we can see it is possible for the site and skin point to be aligned to start but move away from each other during animation. If we can't have a skin point with features of a Site, then in some cases author may need another animation routine to keep the Site location better aligned with the skin point location. Finally, there may be existing authoring systems that allow the author to have sensors on sensors on skin points as well as skeleton points now. </span></div>
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<div class="default-style" style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: helvetica,arial,sans-serif; color: #333333;"><span style="font-family: helvetica; font-size: 12pt;">> </span><span style="font-family: helvetica; font-size: 12pt;">Tha</span><span style="font-family: helvetica; font-size: 12pt;">nks </span></div>
<div class="default-style" style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: helvetica,arial,sans-serif; color: #333333;">> <span style="font-family: helvetica; font-size: 12pt;">Carol </span></div>
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<p style="font-family: helvetica; font-size: 12pt; margin: 0.1rem 0px; line-height: 1;">John > I am thinking that humanoid_root and all other joint centers are relative to the LCS (local coordinate system) of the humanoid, which is 0, 0, 0 relative to any transforms </p>
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<p style="font-family: helvetica; font-size: 12pt; margin: 0.1rem 0px; line-height: 1;">Yes and 0 0 0 is at the floor, between the feet. the HAnim local coordinate system is same as the default x3d parent coordinate system,1_1 in meters. </p>
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<p style="font-family: helvetica; font-size: 12pt; margin: 0.1rem 0px; line-height: 1;">John > This means that for every joint center and every translation, it would be good to have reason for why is it located where it is. </p>
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<p style="font-family: helvetica; font-size: 12pt; margin: 0.1rem 0px; line-height: 1;">The Part 1 Annex A dimensions are just examples derived from historical data base of some sample humans. The names for Joint, Segment,and Site nodes are standard medical names. These are generally 'male' and it would be nice to have dimensions for corresponding female type. </p>
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<p style="font-family: helvetica; font-size: 12pt; margin: 0.1rem 0px; line-height: 1;"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Thanks Again, </span></p>
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<div class="default-style" style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: helvetica,arial,sans-serif; color: #333333;"><span style="font-family: helvetica; font-size: 12pt;">Joe</span></div>
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<div>On 03/16/2024 7:08 AM PDT Carol McDonald <cemd2@comcast.net> wrote:</div>
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<div style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: helvetica,arial,sans-serif; color: #333333;"><span style="font-family: helvetica; font-size: 12pt;">I have been looking into this. And I am agreeing with John's assessment. I will somehow need to get everything into Rhino for visualization and coding. </span></div>
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<div class="default-style" style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: helvetica,arial,sans-serif; color: #333333;"><span style="font-family: helvetica; font-size: 12pt;">From John on March 14th. </span></div>
<div class="default-style" style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: helvetica,arial,sans-serif; color: #333333;"><span style="font-family: helvetica; font-size: 12pt;">I am thinking that humanoid_root and all other joint centers are relative to the LCS (local coordinate system) of the humanoid, which is 0, 0, 0 relative to any transforms outside the humanoid.<br></span>
<div>That's my best guess right now.</div>
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<div class="default-style" style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: helvetica,arial,sans-serif; color: #333333;"><span style="font-family: helvetica; font-size: 12pt;">What is not noted on the General is the exact file or model for which these translations were built for. This means that the list of the translations on the website only valid for the humanoid model that they were obtained for, the distance of that model from the origin and are not appropriate for Gramps or any other model. </span></div>
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<div class="default-style" style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: helvetica,arial,sans-serif; color: #333333;"><span style="font-family: helvetica; font-size: 12pt;">This means that for every joint center and every translation, it would be good to have reason for why is it located where it is. </span></div>
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<div class="default-style" style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: helvetica,arial,sans-serif; color: #333333;"><span style="font-family: helvetica; font-size: 12pt;"><a href="https://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19774-1/V2.0/Architecture/BodyDimensionsAndLOAs.html#General">https://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19774-1/V2.0/Architecture/BodyDimensionsAndLOAs.html#General</a></span></div>
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<div class="default-style" style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: helvetica,arial,sans-serif; color: #333333;"><span style="font-family: helvetica; font-size: 12pt;"><a href="https://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19774-1/V2.0/Architecture/BodyDimensionsAndLOAs.html#LOA2DefaultSiteTranslations">https://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19774-1/V2.0/Architecture/BodyDimensionsAndLOAs.html#LOA2DefaultSiteTranslations</a></span></div>
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<div class="default-style" style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: helvetica,arial,sans-serif; color: #333333;"><span style="font-family: helvetica; font-size: 12pt;"><a href="https://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19774-1/V2.0/Architecture/BodyDimensionsAndLOAs.html#LOA4DefaultSiteTranslations">https://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19774-1/V2.0/Architecture/BodyDimensionsAndLOAs.html#LOA4DefaultSiteTranslations</a></span></div>
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<div class="default-style" style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: helvetica,arial,sans-serif; color: #333333;"><span style="font-family: helvetica; font-size: 12pt;">Is this the model for which the translations are built for? Can someone send me the proper link? Is this it? I will see if I can import it into Rhino 8. </span></div>
<div class="default-style" style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: helvetica,arial,sans-serif; color: #333333;"><span style="font-family: helvetica; font-size: 12pt;">HumanoidAnimation/Skin/Joe*.x3d </span></div>
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<div class="default-style" style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: helvetica, arial, sans-serif; color: #333333;">Back to updating every 120 points currently listed as to recommendations of how to locate it and adding the additional feature points that I have requested. </div>
<div class="default-style" style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: helvetica, arial, sans-serif; color: #333333;"><a href="https://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19774-1/V2.0/Architecture/FeaturePoints.html#FeaturePointsOnTheHumanBody">https://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19774-1/V2.0/Architecture/FeaturePoints.html#FeaturePointsOnTheHumanBody</a></div>
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<div>Carol </div>
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<div>On 03/16/2024 4:23 AM PDT John Carlson <yottzumm@gmail.com> wrote:</div>
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<div class="gmail_attr" dir="ltr">On Sat, Mar 16, 2024 at 2:38 AM Joe D Williams <<a href="mailto:joedwil@earthlink.net">joedwil@earthlink.net</a>> wrote:</div>
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<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0px; line-height: 1;">> You can make the skin opaque to see that I'm really grabbing this from a HumanoidAnimation/Skin/Joe*.x3d example, just my own incantation of scripts to draw the humanoid geometry. I'll be checking those in soon</p>
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<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0px; line-height: 1;">Great John,</p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0px; line-height: 1;">I will check this out soon. </p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0px; line-height: 1;">Any ideas for the 'virtual' feature points? </p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0px; line-height: 1;">All Fine, </p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0px; line-height: 1;">Joe</p>
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<div>Joe, do you mean user drawn, not in current standard? User defined points? I have scripts for sites to place coordinates, but I don't have a way to get them into the hierarchy yet, so...</div>
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<p>-----Original Message-----<br>From: John Carlson <<a href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noopener">yottzumm@gmail.com</a>><br>Sent: Mar 15, 2024 12:11 AM<br>To: X3D Graphics public mailing list <<a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org" target="_blank" rel="noopener">x3d-public@web3d.org</a>>, Carol McDonald <<a href="mailto:cemd2@comcast.net" target="_blank" rel="noopener">cemd2@comcast.net</a>>, Joe D Williams <<a href="mailto:joedwil@earthlink.net" target="_blank" rel="noopener">joedwil@earthlink.net</a>><br>Subject: Re: HAnim Features Points, 1-120 for your review</p>
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<div dir="ltr">Carol, I'm discovering it makes a difference where you put the Transform in the HAnimSegment as to whether to reuse the center. I don't have something that doesn't put out warnings yet, or takes the Sites away from the Joints. Hmm!
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<div>My best Humanoid so far is Humanoid4J.x3d.</div>
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<div>I'm going to get some sleep.</div>
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<div class="gmail_attr" dir="ltr">On Fri, Mar 15, 2024 at 12:53 AM John Carlson <<a href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noopener">yottzumm@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div>
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<div dir="ltr">Good use of Billboard for annotated feature points
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<div>Please consider this a contribution to the Web3DConsortium examples. I release my copyright and licensing privileges, and give them copyright and licensing under the normal X3D resources example.</div>
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<div>Thanks to Joe and Don for good examples to draw from!</div>
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<div>No, I don't have any metadata yet. Let's set up a time and figure out who all contributed.</div>
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<div>You can make the skin opaque to see that I'm really grabbing this from a HumanoidAnimation/Skin/Joe*.x3d example, just my own incantation of scripts to draw the humanoid geometry. I'll be checking those in soon.</div>
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