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<p>-----Forwarded Message-----<br>From: Joe D Williams <joedwil@earthlink.net><br>Sent: Mar 29, 2024 1:02 AM<br>To: Carol McDonald <cemd2@comcast.net><br>Subject: Re: HAnim Features Points, 1-120 for your review</p>
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<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0px; line-height: 1;">Hi Carol, </p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0px; line-height: 1;">The Humanoid skeleton is a certain hierarchy of Joint, Segment, and Site nodes. <br>Joints are connected by Segments. <br>Segment can contain geometry and animations to vizualize model surfaces. <br>Skeleton pose is controlled by rotation of appropriate Joint nodes. <br>Segment is animated directly by parent Joint rotation. <br>Segment can include one or more Site nodes. <br>Site is animated directly with parent Segment.<br>Site provides primary interaction functions. <br>Site can include anything x3d, including animations, Viewpoints, Sensors, Script, transducers, and accessory geometry. <br>All nodes in the Humanoid are "Live" and all parameters can be changed or read. <br>Precise control of Humanoid pose, and thus location of Site node, gives great opportunity for detailed interaction with the host environment. </p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0px; line-height: 1;"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0px; line-height: 1;">> I have another question. A feature point is on the skin, however, it is given as a translation. <br> <br>Yes, a feature point is intended to be a surface feature. <br>In the pose before animation a Site is positioned relative to 0 0 0, in Segment space. <br>It gets animated directly by its parent hierarchy.<br> <br>> But skin vertices have weighting so that proper joints control them. <br>Is there weighting for the feature points as well so that the they are controlled by the proper joints? <br> <br>No. A Site is a part of the skeleton and is controlled directly by its parent skeleton hierarchy.<br> <br>Each Part 1 Annex B feature point is coded as a Site node, a child of a specific Segment. <br>So, to produce an end-effector we use a Site that is located relative to the distal, terminating, Segment.</p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0px; line-height: 1;">The Humanoid skeleton can control continuous mesh serving as a deformable skin <br>using linear weighted joint(s) to vertex binding algorithm.<br>Any Humanoid geometry can also be controlled individually per vertex or groups <br>using scalar-driven displacement algorithm. <br> <br>For some purposes it could be an advantage to provide the user <br>some functionality of the skeleton to the skin. <br>That is, to be able to identify a specific skin vertex, or group, <br>to be parent of Site node. <br>Then the current location of a specific skin vertex <br>could provide the interface functionalities such as touch or proximity.<br> <br>This need would be driven by the potential difference <br>in <br>(1) the translation of a Site computed directly from skeleton pose <br>versus <br>(2) the translation of a Site computed by algorithm from skeleton pose. <br> <br>The fact is, that even if the two locations <br>are identical before animation the same movement of the skeleton <br>could produce different translation results for each Site instance. <br>The question is then, would (1) or (2) be the most accurate simulation <br>of the interface location?<br> <br>By general observation, if set up reasonably, within most range of motions the relative locations will likely remain within expectations and desired interface functionality can be achieved. <br>lf not, for now, additional animation can be applied to move either the skin vertex or the Site in addition to the standard computed motion. <br> <br>So, at this point, since without special scripting <br>a skin vertex cannot be a Site, what does the author need? <br>My preference is to give the author the choice. <br>Our x3d skeleton provides an armature that allows the user <br>to put a Site node literally anywhere with respect to any <br>part of the Humanoid, and to sense where it is at any given sample. <br>In general, it is somewhat more difficult, but possible, <br>to maintain such control over a vertex of the skin. <br> <br>So, do the browser makers want to add this capability <br>of defining a Site to a vertex of the skin? <br>The data and syntax is available and could give the user added flexibility in some close applications <br>like garment fit testing when several poses are required and the animated skin vertex provides a better sensor location than the animated skeleton. </p>
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<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0px; line-height: 1;">Bottom line is can the existing scheme work or do we need extra feature? We need to try and see.<br> <br>Thanks and Best, <br>Joe</p>
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<p>-----Original Message-----<br>From: Carol McDonald <cemd2@comcast.net><br>Sent: Mar 28, 2024 11:42 AM<br>To: Joe D Williams <joedwil@earthlink.net>, John Carlson <yottzumm@gmail.com>, Katy Schildmeyer KS APPAREL DESIGN <katy@ksappareldesign.com><br>Cc: X3D Graphics public mailing list <x3d-public@web3d.org><br>Subject: Re: HAnim Features Points, 1-120 for your review</p>
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<div style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: helvetica,arial,sans-serif; color: #333333;"><span style="font-family: helvetica; font-size: 12pt;">The underbust is mostly required for females and sometimes for larger men. As for the other feature points - those are the same for men and women. </span></div>
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<div class="default-style" style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: helvetica,arial,sans-serif; color: #333333;"><span style="font-family: helvetica; font-size: 12pt;">I have another question. A feature point is on the skin, however, it is given as a translation. But skin vertices have weighting so that proper joints control them. Is there weighting for the feature points as well so that the they are controlled by the proper joints? </span></div>
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<div class="default-style" style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: helvetica,arial,sans-serif; color: #333333;"><span style="font-family: helvetica; font-size: 12pt;">Thanks </span></div>
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<div class="default-style" style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: helvetica,arial,sans-serif; color: #333333;"><span style="font-family: helvetica; font-size: 12pt;">Carol </span></div>
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<div>On 03/26/2024 5:29 PM PDT Joe D Williams <joedwil@earthlink.net> wrote:</div>
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<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;">> <span style="color: #333333; font-family: helvetica; font-size: 16px; white-space: normal; float: none; display: inline;">A male model - well - that leaves out 50% of the population right there</span> </p>
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<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;">Hi Carol, It would be great to have two examples, one male and one female style. </p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;">Of course there should be enough feature points on the surface to be able to dimension either presentation. Are there slightly different points of measurement for the typical male and female.</p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;">Seems like there should be more points for a female since, well, since different shape and relationship to shoulders and waist(?). </p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;">Thanks,</p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;">Joe</p>
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<p>-----Original Message-----<br>From: Carol McDonald <cemd2@comcast.net><br>Sent: Mar 20, 2024 7:03 AM<br>To: Joe D Williams <joedwil@earthlink.net>, John Carlson <yottzumm@gmail.com>, Katy Schildmeyer KS APPAREL DESIGN <katy@ksappareldesign.com><br>Cc: X3D Graphics public mailing list <x3d-public@web3d.org><br>Subject: Re: HAnim Features Points, 1-120 for your review</p>
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<div class="default-style" style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: helvetica,arial,sans-serif; color: #333333;"><span style="font-family: helvetica; font-size: 12pt;">My point is the following: it is not "a" male model, but "the" male model as the </span><span style="font-family: helvetica; font-size: 12pt;">definite article (the) is used before a noun to indicate that the identity of the noun is known to the reader. The indefinite article (a, an) is used before a noun that is general or when its identity is not known. (yes, I had to look this up)</span></div>
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<div class="default-style" style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: helvetica,arial,sans-serif; color: #333333;"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Expanding on this: <em>The measurements are appropriate example for a male model drawn 1:1 scale as derived from a collection of actual measurements. The numbers are relative to 0 0 0 at the floor between the feet.</em> </span><span style="font-family: helvetica; font-size: 12pt;">The measurements are appropriate example for </span><em style="font-family: helvetica; font-size: 12pt;">the</em><span style="font-family: helvetica; font-size: 12pt;"> model that was drawn 1:1 scale with </span><em style="font-family: helvetica; font-size: 12pt;">the</em><span style="font-family: helvetica; font-size: 12pt;"> known symmetrical </span><span style="font-family: helvetica; font-size: 12pt;">body shape, </span><span style="font-size: 12pt;">as derived from a collection of actual measurements taken off of <em>the</em> virtual humanoid that is </span><span style="font-family: helvetica; font-size: 12pt;">in the required I pose, in the x,y,z ordination as required by HAnim, with origin at 0,0,0 between the feet. </span></div>
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<div class="default-style" style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: helvetica,arial,sans-serif; color: #333333;"><span style="font-family: helvetica; font-size: 12pt;">A male model - well - that leaves out 50% of the population right there. </span></div>
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<div class="default-style" style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: helvetica,arial,sans-serif; color: #333333;"><span style="font-family: helvetica; font-size: 12pt;">I am not saying the translations are wrong - just more limited in actual application than first thought. So I can give more translations but I need a way to get the skin surface into Rhino. If we can get the skin surface into Blender - from Blender, then save as an OBJ file that I can import into Rhino - I can get the translations. But the underbust will be an approximation as there is no curve changes on the front side of the body. </span></div>
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<div class="default-style" style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: helvetica,arial,sans-serif; color: #333333;"><span style="font-family: helvetica; font-size: 12pt;">Carol </span></div>
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<div>On 03/20/2024 1:29 AM PDT Joe D Williams <joedwil@earthlink.net> wrote:</div>
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<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;">> <span style="color: #333333; font-family: helvetica; font-size: 16px; white-space: normal; float: none; display: inline;"> the distance of that model from the origin and are not appropriate for Gramps or any other model.</span> </p>
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<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;">The measurements are appropriate example for a male model drawn 1:1 scale as derived from a collection of actual measurements. The numbers are relative to 0 0 0 at the floor between the feet. </p>
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<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;">Maybe we need to discuss this live to clarify some details. </p>
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<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;">Thanks, </p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;">Joe</p>
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<p>-----Original Message-----<br>From: Carol McDonald <cemd2@comcast.net><br>Sent: Mar 16, 2024 7:08 AM<br>To: John Carlson <yottzumm@gmail.com>, Joe D Williams <joedwil@earthlink.net><br>Cc: X3D Graphics public mailing list <x3d-public@web3d.org><br>Subject: Re: HAnim Features Points, 1-120 for your review</p>
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<div style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: helvetica,arial,sans-serif; color: #333333;"><span style="font-family: helvetica; font-size: 12pt;">I have been looking into this. And I am agreeing with John's assessment. I will somehow need to get everything into Rhino for visualization and coding. </span></div>
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<div class="default-style" style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: helvetica,arial,sans-serif; color: #333333;"><span style="font-family: helvetica; font-size: 12pt;">From John on March 14th. </span></div>
<div class="default-style" style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: helvetica,arial,sans-serif; color: #333333;"><span style="font-family: helvetica; font-size: 12pt;">I am thinking that humanoid_root and all other joint centers are relative to the LCS (local coordinate system) of the humanoid, which is 0, 0, 0 relative to any transforms outside the humanoid.<br></span>
<div>That's my best guess right now.</div>
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<div class="default-style" style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: helvetica,arial,sans-serif; color: #333333;"><span style="font-family: helvetica; font-size: 12pt;">What is not noted on the General is the exact file or model for which these translations were built for. This means that the list of the translations on the website only valid for the humanoid model that they were obtained for, the distance of that model from the origin and are not appropriate for Gramps or any other model. </span></div>
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<div class="default-style" style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: helvetica,arial,sans-serif; color: #333333;"><span style="font-family: helvetica; font-size: 12pt;">This means that for every joint center and every translation, it would be good to have reason for why is it located where it is. </span></div>
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<div class="default-style" style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: helvetica,arial,sans-serif; color: #333333;"><span style="font-family: helvetica; font-size: 12pt;"><a href="https://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19774-1/V2.0/Architecture/BodyDimensionsAndLOAs.html#General">https://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19774-1/V2.0/Architecture/BodyDimensionsAndLOAs.html#General</a></span></div>
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<div class="default-style" style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: helvetica,arial,sans-serif; color: #333333;"><span style="font-family: helvetica; font-size: 12pt;"><a href="https://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19774-1/V2.0/Architecture/BodyDimensionsAndLOAs.html#LOA2DefaultSiteTranslations">https://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19774-1/V2.0/Architecture/BodyDimensionsAndLOAs.html#LOA2DefaultSiteTranslations</a></span></div>
<div class="default-style" style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: helvetica,arial,sans-serif; color: #333333;"><span style="font-family: helvetica; font-size: 12pt;"><a href="https://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19774-1/V2.0/Architecture/BodyDimensionsAndLOAs.html#LOA3DefaultSiteTranslations">https://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19774-1/V2.0/Architecture/BodyDimensionsAndLOAs.html#LOA3DefaultSiteTranslations</a></span></div>
<div class="default-style" style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: helvetica,arial,sans-serif; color: #333333;"><span style="font-family: helvetica; font-size: 12pt;"><a href="https://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19774-1/V2.0/Architecture/BodyDimensionsAndLOAs.html#LOA4DefaultSiteTranslations">https://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19774-1/V2.0/Architecture/BodyDimensionsAndLOAs.html#LOA4DefaultSiteTranslations</a></span></div>
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<div class="default-style" style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: helvetica,arial,sans-serif; color: #333333;"><span style="font-family: helvetica; font-size: 12pt;">Is this the model for which the translations are built for? Can someone send me the proper link? Is this it? I will see if I can import it into Rhino 8. </span></div>
<div class="default-style" style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: helvetica,arial,sans-serif; color: #333333;"><span style="font-family: helvetica; font-size: 12pt;">HumanoidAnimation/Skin/Joe*.x3d </span></div>
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<div class="default-style" style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: helvetica, arial, sans-serif; color: #333333;">Back to updating every 120 points currently listed as to recommendations of how to locate it and adding the additional feature points that I have requested. </div>
<div class="default-style" style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: helvetica, arial, sans-serif; color: #333333;"><a href="https://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19774-1/V2.0/Architecture/FeaturePoints.html#FeaturePointsOnTheHumanBody">https://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19774-1/V2.0/Architecture/FeaturePoints.html#FeaturePointsOnTheHumanBody</a></div>
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<div>Carol </div>
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<div>On 03/16/2024 4:23 AM PDT John Carlson <yottzumm@gmail.com> wrote:</div>
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<div class="gmail_attr" dir="ltr">On Sat, Mar 16, 2024 at 2:38 AM Joe D Williams <<a href="mailto:joedwil@earthlink.net">joedwil@earthlink.net</a>> wrote:</div>
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<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0px; line-height: 1;">> You can make the skin opaque to see that I'm really grabbing this from a HumanoidAnimation/Skin/Joe*.x3d example, just my own incantation of scripts to draw the humanoid geometry. I'll be checking those in soon</p>
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<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0px; line-height: 1;">Great John,</p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0px; line-height: 1;">I will check this out soon. </p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0px; line-height: 1;">Any ideas for the 'virtual' feature points? </p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0px; line-height: 1;">All Fine, </p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0px; line-height: 1;">Joe</p>
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<div>Joe, do you mean user drawn, not in current standard? User defined points? I have scripts for sites to place coordinates, but I don't have a way to get them into the hierarchy yet, so...</div>
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<p>-----Original Message-----<br>From: John Carlson <<a href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noopener">yottzumm@gmail.com</a>><br>Sent: Mar 15, 2024 12:11 AM<br>To: X3D Graphics public mailing list <<a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org" target="_blank" rel="noopener">x3d-public@web3d.org</a>>, Carol McDonald <<a href="mailto:cemd2@comcast.net" target="_blank" rel="noopener">cemd2@comcast.net</a>>, Joe D Williams <<a href="mailto:joedwil@earthlink.net" target="_blank" rel="noopener">joedwil@earthlink.net</a>><br>Subject: Re: HAnim Features Points, 1-120 for your review</p>
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<div dir="ltr">Carol, I'm discovering it makes a difference where you put the Transform in the HAnimSegment as to whether to reuse the center. I don't have something that doesn't put out warnings yet, or takes the Sites away from the Joints. Hmm!
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<div>My best Humanoid so far is Humanoid4J.x3d.</div>
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<div>I'm going to get some sleep.</div>
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<div class="gmail_attr" dir="ltr">On Fri, Mar 15, 2024 at 12:53 AM John Carlson <<a href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noopener">yottzumm@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div>
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<div dir="ltr">Good use of Billboard for annotated feature points
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<div>Please consider this a contribution to the Web3DConsortium examples. I release my copyright and licensing privileges, and give them copyright and licensing under the normal X3D resources example.</div>
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<div>Thanks to Joe and Don for good examples to draw from!</div>
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<div>No, I don't have any metadata yet. Let's set up a time and figure out who all contributed.</div>
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<div>You can make the skin opaque to see that I'm really grabbing this from a HumanoidAnimation/Skin/Joe*.x3d example, just my own incantation of scripts to draw the humanoid geometry. I'll be checking those in soon.</div>
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<div>John</div>
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