<div style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12pt"><div style="color: #000000; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: medium; white-space: normal;"><a href="https://github.com/coderextreme/X3DJSONLD/blob/master/blend/localtest/Humanoid4.x3d" target="_blank" rel="noopener">X3DJSONLD/blend/localtest/Humanoid4.x3d at master · coderextreme/X3DJSONLD (github.com)</a></div>
<p style="color: #000000; white-space: normal; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: medium; margin: 0.1rem 0px; line-height: 1;">> This has skin that doesn't move--maybe someone can add skin weights </p>
<p style="color: #000000; white-space: normal; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: medium; margin: 0.1rem 0px; line-height: 1;"> </p>
<p style="color: #000000; white-space: normal; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: medium; margin: 0.1rem 0px; line-height: 1;">The skin is there, but not animated. This skin from a different skeleton. You get to do the final point to joint rigging. The most simple skin consists of triangles made from the set surface feature points. This skin uses V1 feature points and some added, but does not include all the V2 feature points. So, the skin either needs to be re-triangulated adding new V2 points, and connected to the skeleton, or, using hints from the V1 skeleton that this skin was last used on, simply assign these points to joints. Please just go ahead and add the new V2 points, then connect it up. </p>
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<p style="color: #000000; white-space: normal; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: medium; margin: 0.1rem 0px; line-height: 1;">The x3d way of documenting this step in the"rigging" process is using the Joint node. The fields are skinCoordIndex and skinCoordWeight where the skinCoordIndex is a list of numbers in order of appearance in the Coord point list of x y z coordinates of the skin geometry and the skinCoordWeight is the 0 to 1 scaling value that is to be applied to the corresponding index. More than 1 Joint may produce a motion to the point, so the index can appear multiple times, and if multiple, the weights defined for that index should total to be max 1. </p>
<p style="color: #000000; white-space: normal; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: medium; margin: 0.1rem 0px; line-height: 1;"> </p>
<p style="color: #000000; white-space: normal; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: medium; margin: 0.1rem 0px; line-height: 1;">For example, for the geometry associated with left arm, assign these indexes to the left shoulder Joint with all weights=1. A roll action of the shoulder joint, 0 0 -1 1, will move those vertices away from the body, ccw to the viewer. </p>
<p style="color: #000000; white-space: normal; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: medium; margin: 0.1rem 0px; line-height: 1;"> </p>
<p style="color: #000000; white-space: normal; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: medium; margin: 0.1rem 0px; line-height: 1;">Most authoring tools will offer a method of defining this point to joint data where a shading graphic allows you to give a general definition of which vertices are controlled by which Joints. This will give a basis for getting the skin to operate the way you wish over a range of postures and motions you design. Whatever the process, the end result is that every point is assigned to at least one Joint. In general, the farthest from the Joint center has a higher weight and nearest has a lower weight. The actual motion of a point depends on the actual joint rotation and the radial distance of the point from the Joint center. If multiple joints, then the result is accumulated. Achieving hifi results means careful attention to the relationship of the Joint center locations with respect to the animated mesh points. </p>
<p style="color: #000000; white-space: normal; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: medium; margin: 0.1rem 0px; line-height: 1;"> </p>
<p style="color: #000000; white-space: normal; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: medium; margin: 0.1rem 0px; line-height: 1;">Next note that the user code form for x3d joint to point bindings is to list the index and weight in fields of the Joint node. For the closest to the metal form this data for each frame is stored where each vertex data point includes a list of values applied by each joint to be applied to that point for that frame to accomplish the motion. For this reason and others, the non-x3d authoring system may store the data in many forms, most never intended to be actually exposed and editable by the author. </p>
<p style="color: #000000; white-space: normal; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: medium; margin: 0.1rem 0px; line-height: 1;">However, under the covers there is always a list of these connections in some form. If you work with a reasonable number of points for your skin, distributed effectively, then some fine tuning can be done with a simple text editor and x3d player. </p>
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<p style="color: #000000; white-space: normal; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: medium; margin: 0.1rem 0px; line-height: 1;">Thanks and Best, </p>
<p style="color: #000000; white-space: normal; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: medium; margin: 0.1rem 0px; line-height: 1;">Joe</p>
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<p>----Original Message-----<br>From: John Carlson <yottzumm@gmail.com><br>Sent: Jul 5, 2024 12:14 PM<br>To: Joe D Williams <joedwil@earthlink.net>, X3D Ecosystem public discussion <x3d-ecosystem@web3d.org>, Katy Schildmeyer KS APPAREL DESIGN <katy@ksappareldesign.com>, Carol McDonald <cemd2@comcast.net><br>Subject: Re: Nearly post mortem</p>
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<div dir="ltr">Okay, I took some of my site billboard, that also had a skeleton and developed Humanoid4.x3d.
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<div><a href="https://github.com/coderextreme/X3DJSONLD/blob/master/blend/localtest/Humanoid4.x3d">X3DJSONLD/blend/localtest/Humanoid4.x3d at master · coderextreme/X3DJSONLD (github.com)</a></div>
<div>This has skin that doesn't move--maybe someone can add skin weights.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Note that I'm now getting segment and site geometry (spheres and "cylinders"), but the animation isn't right for them in Blender. So perhaps we need to study the import script:</div>
<div> </div>
<div><a href="https://github.com/coderextreme/X3DJSONLD/blob/master/blend/localtest/localfinal.py">X3DJSONLD/blend/localtest/localfinal.py at master · coderextreme/X3DJSONLD (github.com)</a></div>
<div> </div>
<div>This seems like quite a bit of progress taking out USE and DEF attributes. Now I can focus on what's wrong with the animation. I discovered how to hide empties, so that really helps in some cases.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>John</div>
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<div class="gmail_attr" dir="ltr">On Thu, Jul 4, 2024 at 4:13 PM John Carlson <<a href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com">yottzumm@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div>
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<div dir="auto">I think the back is being loaded, and the text, but it’s difficult to navigate to in Blender.</div>
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<div dir="auto">Here are examples. There’s currently two source codes, one for localLOAminus1.x3d and one for the rest.</div>
<div dir="auto"> </div>
<div dir="auto">The bat script should run everything.</div>
<div dir="auto"> </div>
<div dir="auto">
<div><a href="https://github.com/coderextreme/X3DJSONLD/tree/master/blend/localtest" target="_blank" rel="noopener">https://github.com/coderextreme/X3DJSONLD/tree/master/blend/localtest</a></div>
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<div dir="auto">John</div>
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<div class="gmail_attr" dir="ltr">On Thu, Jul 4, 2024 at 11:11 AM Joe D Williams <<a href="mailto:joedwil@earthlink.net" target="_blank" rel="noopener">joedwil@earthlink.net</a>> wrote:</div>
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<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0px; line-height: 1; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Hi John,</p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0px; line-height: 1; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">what tool gives you this error. The ifs is legal and serves as back for the menu, making it easier to click.</p>
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<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0px; line-height: 1; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Joe</p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0px; line-height: 1; font-family: arial,sans-serif;"> </p>
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<p>-----Original Message-----<br>From: John Carlson <<a href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noopener">yottzumm@gmail.com</a>><br>Sent: Jul 4, 2024 3:00 AM<br>To: Joe D Williams <<a href="mailto:joedwil@earthlink.net" target="_blank" rel="noopener">joedwil@earthlink.net</a>><br>Subject: Re: Nearly post mortem</p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0px; line-height: 1;"> </p>
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<div dir="ltr">The problem with Jin 11f, Jin 11g, and JinConcat11f.x3d is the following IndexedFaceSet:
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<div> <IndexedFaceSet DEF='Backing' coordIndex='0 1 2 3 -1'></div>
<div> <Coordinate point='-0.2 -0.25 -0.01 3 -0.25 -0.01 3 1 -0.01 -0.2 1 -0.01'/></div>
<div> </IndexedFaceSet></div>
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<div>Commenting this out allows the file to load.</div>
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<div>The issue is that the IndexedFaceSet specifies a quad instead of a tri. I will look into it.</div>
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<div>Good test, Joe.</div>
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<div>John</div>
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<div class="gmail_attr" dir="ltr">On Thu, Jul 4, 2024 at 1:37 AM John Carlson <<a href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noopener">yottzumm@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div>
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<div dir="ltr">This is what I'm faced with.
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<div>Error : EXCEPTION_ACCESS_VIOLATION</div>
<div>Address : 0x00007FF6096ED1FB</div>
<div>Module : blender.exe</div>
<div>Thread : 00003cb8</div>
<div>Writing: C:\Users\john\AppData\Local\Temp\blender.crash.txt</div>
<div>runlocalfinal.sh: line 2: 26084 Segmentation fault /c/Program\ Files/Blender\ Foundation/Blender\ 4.1/blender.exe --verbose 3 --python localfinal.py</div>
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<div> </div>
<div>The blender.crash.txt file is zero size.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>I'm going to try to update blender.</div>
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<div>John</div>
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<div class="gmail_attr" dir="ltr">On Thu, Jul 4, 2024 at 12:58 AM Joe D Williams <<a href="mailto:joedwil@earthlink.net" target="_blank" rel="noopener">joedwil@earthlink.net</a>> wrote:</div>
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<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0px; line-height: 1; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Hi John,</p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0px; line-height: 1; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Use this we can work on cancat later</p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0px; line-height: 1; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Joe</p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0px; line-height: 1; font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 12pt;">-----Original Message-----</span></p>
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<p>From: John Carlson <<a href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noopener">yottzumm@gmail.com</a>><br>Sent: Jul 3, 2024 9:18 PM<br>To: Joe D Williams <<a href="mailto:joedwil@earthlink.net" target="_blank" rel="noopener">joedwil@earthlink.net</a>><br>Subject: Re: Nearly post mortem</p>
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<div dir="ltr">Okay, but I will have to strip out commas, barebones loader doesn't like that.
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<div>John</div>
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<div class="gmail_attr" dir="ltr">On Wed, Jul 3, 2024 at 8:58 PM Joe D Williams <<a href="mailto:joedwil@earthlink.net" target="_blank" rel="noopener">joedwil@earthlink.net</a>> wrote:</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #cccccc; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: #000000;">
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0px; line-height: 1; font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: medium; white-space: normal; float: none; display: inline; color: #000000;">> (concatenated animation version).</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0px; line-height: 1; font-family: arial,sans-serif;"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0px; line-height: 1; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Forget this concat for this development for now. Your version of the code is too much and that mode is the only one to select. Your cat code is extreme and bigger than all the rest. We can work on it but for now just jin11 series for now with no concat - just too big and not integrated with rest of menu. </p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0px; line-height: 1; font-family: arial,sans-serif;"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0px; line-height: 1; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Thanks,</p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0px; line-height: 1; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Joe</p>
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<p>-----Original Message-----<br>From: John Carlson <<a href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noopener">yottzumm@gmail.com</a>><br>Sent: Jul 3, 2024 6:52 PM<br>To: Joe D Williams <<a href="mailto:joedwil@earthlink.net" target="_blank" rel="noopener">joedwil@earthlink.net</a>><br>Cc: Carol McDonald <<a href="mailto:cemd2@comcast.net" target="_blank" rel="noopener">cemd2@comcast.net</a>>, GPU Group <<a href="mailto:gpugroup@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noopener">gpugroup@gmail.com</a>>, Katy Schildmeyer <<a href="mailto:katy@ksappareldesign.com" target="_blank" rel="noopener">katy@ksappareldesign.com</a>>, Michalis Kamburelis <<a href="mailto:michalis.kambi@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noopener">michalis.kambi@gmail.com</a>>, <<a href="mailto:x3d-ecosystem@web3d.org" target="_blank" rel="noopener">x3d-ecosystem@web3d.org</a>><br>Subject: Re: Nearly post mortem</p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0px; line-height: 1;"> </p>
<div dir="auto">All is well, Joe, the humanoid just needs be animated. I need to figure out why memory allocations are failing on Jin 11f mesh (concatenated animation version).</div>
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<div class="gmail_attr" dir="ltr">On Wed, Jul 3, 2024 at 8:44 PM Joe D Williams <<a href="mailto:joedwil@earthlink.net" target="_blank" rel="noopener">joedwil@earthlink.net</a>> wrote:</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #cccccc; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: #000000;">
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0px; line-height: 1; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">> <span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: medium; white-space: normal; float: none; display: inline; color: #000000;">What I have discovered in my journeys is to that locations seem to added together, such that if humanoid_root not at 0,0,0, then it gets added to sacroiliac, etc.</span> </p>
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<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0px; line-height: 1; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">it is because your transform hierarchy is wrong. The translation for one is adding to another so the hierarchy is adding srong.</p>
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<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0px; line-height: 1; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Joe</p>
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<p>-----Original Message-----<br>From: Katy Schildmeyer <<a href="mailto:katy@ksappareldesign.com" target="_blank" rel="noopener">katy@ksappareldesign.com</a>><br>Sent: Jul 2, 2024 6:45 PM<br>To: John Carlson <<a href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noopener">yottzumm@gmail.com</a>><br>Cc: Carol McDonald <<a href="mailto:cemd2@comcast.net" target="_blank" rel="noopener">cemd2@comcast.net</a>>, GPU Group <<a href="mailto:gpugroup@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noopener">gpugroup@gmail.com</a>>, Joe D Williams <<a href="mailto:joedwil@earthlink.net" target="_blank" rel="noopener">joedwil@earthlink.net</a>>, Michalis Kamburelis <<a href="mailto:michalis.kambi@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noopener">michalis.kambi@gmail.com</a>>, <<a href="mailto:x3d-ecosystem@web3d.org" target="_blank" rel="noopener">x3d-ecosystem@web3d.org</a>><br>Subject: Re: Nearly post mortem</p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0px; line-height: 1;"> </p>
<div dir="ltr">John,
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<div>Let me know if you are free tonite or tomorrow to just jump on a call with jin. I may have some ideas. Dunno if they will go against what you are trying for, but worth a review. Let me know what works for you!<br clear="all">
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<div><br><br>Katherine Schildmeyer</div>
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<div>KS Apparel Design & Consulting</div>
<a href="http://www.ksappareldesign.com" target="_blank" rel="noopener">www.ksappareldesign.com</a></div>
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PH: 503-367-4856<br>
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<div class="gmail_attr" dir="ltr">On Mon, Jul 1, 2024 at 10:43 PM John Carlson <<a href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noopener">yottzumm@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #cccccc; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div dir="auto">I also think that HAnim export may remain viable, but will be joints+skin based, until Blender or an extension raises the game.</div>
<div dir="auto"> </div>
<div dir="auto">Any examples to the otherwise welcome.</div>
<div dir="auto"> </div>
<div dir="auto">I think we should perhaps focus on authoring tools which produce segments and sites, and provide conversion to X3D in the short term, like WinterAndSpring.</div>
<div dir="auto"> </div>
<div dir="auto">But I’ll try delta transforms first.</div>
<div dir="auto"> </div>
<div dir="auto">John</div>
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<div class="gmail_attr" dir="ltr">On Mon, Jul 1, 2024 at 11:21 PM John Carlson <<a href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noopener">yottzumm@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div>
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<div dir="auto">If delta transforms don’t work, I’m willing to say that Joint centers won’t work without Blender bones, which probably means we should focus on joints+multiple skins (clothes), and find another tool to hook sites to segments to joints. Further development on the Blender addon should be focused on more fruitful areas, like PBR import/export, or revamping Blender itself, to suit X3D requirements (the latter is beyond my interest, skill and pay grade, I don’t do C++ debugging like a lowly paid game developer. My interest might be piqued by a 5 year, 1.25 million contract with benefits, and then I would probably die. What’s the point?) Systems which already support X3D could be employed to develop an authoring system (CGE, Sunrize, Titania, Flux???). I’d consider working with Pascal and JavaScript, pro bono. Pascal looks a lot more sane than C++.</div>
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<div dir="auto">There might be a way to hook armatures into joints, sites and segments, without Blender bones, but don’t ask me how to animate that behemoth yet. I think we’re more likely to have success converting sites and segments to Blender bones in addition to joints, but I don’t know how to hook Transforms or Groups to Blender bones, so no go. At this point, i don’t quite know how to hook armature to anything but Blender bones and mesh.</div>
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<div dir="auto">If someone can make available a blender file which shows something else, that would probably be a step forward.</div>
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<div dir="auto">One could also take the approach that animation should not be done in Blender, but I’m already hearing rumblings of KHR_interactivity being implemented.</div>
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<div dir="auto">Note that when I went for #beginner-help on Blender Discord, no one wanted to help with X3D.</div>
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<div dir="auto">If I get go ahead to convert sites and segments to Blender bones, I will go ahead with that.</div>
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<div dir="auto">The reason why our initial Blender examples worked was because the nesting of transforms went in one direction. I’m pretty sure if the centers go one way, then the reverse, one will need delta transforms or non-nested transforms. I would welcome this X3D example being developed.</div>
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<div dir="auto">Overall, it looks like I got extremely lucky that gramps worked in Blender, and I could export him.</div>
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<div dir="auto">All the problems probably go away without a hierarchy.</div>
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<div dir="auto">Anyway, after delta transforms, I’ll be looking for some direction. If they work, then I see a path forward for sites and segments.</div>
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<div dir="auto">John </div>
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<div class="gmail_attr" dir="ltr">On Mon, Jul 1, 2024 at 10:10 PM John Carlson <<a href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noopener">yottzumm@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div>
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<div dir="auto">What I have discovered in my journeys is to that locations seem to added together, such that if humanoid_root not at 0,0,0, then it gets added to sacroiliac, etc. that is, if you go down the leg or arm, they will go upwards in Y, despite perfect location values appearing in Blender. It probably doesn’t help to do any kind of coordinate swapping or matrix_local vs matrix_world. What I will look into is doing delta transforms next, subtracting child center from parent center and assigning to delta location. Another way to solve this is provide a flat transform hierarchy.</div>
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<div dir="auto">I will check in an example which shows this—eventually.</div>
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<div dir="auto">Anyway, I’m discovering new ways to curse at AI, finally taking over from them, despite luring them with $20/month. Probably <a href="http://you.com" target="_blank" rel="noopener">you.com</a> is better for the end user and worse for the AI provider. It just seems like <a href="http://you.com" target="_blank" rel="noopener">you.com</a> could be blocked by the AI providers.</div>
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<div dir="auto">Blender’s not much better than AI.</div>
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<div dir="auto">John </div>
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<div class="gmail_attr" dir="ltr">On Mon, Jul 1, 2024 at 4:06 PM John Carlson <<a href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noopener">yottzumm@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div>
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<div dir="ltr">I have revamped the examples and created a bat script to run the python along with showing the examples in castle-model-viewer. Enjoy!</div>
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<div><a href="https://github.com/coderextreme/X3DJSONLD/tree/master/blend/localtest" target="_blank" rel="noopener">X3DJSONLD/blend/localtest at master · coderextreme/X3DJSONLD (github.com)</a></div>
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<div>I'm still working on JinLOA1, showing that centers AND geometry can be loaded properly, while also nesting HAnimJoints in Blender, and ignoring joints and segments fields in HAnimHumanoid.</div>
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<div>I feel a bit like John C. from Terminator, saving humanoids from SkyNet.</div>
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<div class="gmail_attr" dir="ltr">On Sat, Jun 29, 2024 at 10:08 PM John Carlson <<a href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noopener">yottzumm@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div>
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<div dir="auto">Yes, except for JinLOA1scaled1.x3d. Don’t import with the .x3d addon, use the provided python and change the file name. The default addon does not handle ROUTEs.</div>
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<div dir="auto">I will double check the files.</div>
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<div dir="auto">John</div>
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<div class="gmail_attr" dir="ltr">On Sat, Jun 29, 2024 at 6:29 PM Katy Schildmeyer <<a href="mailto:katy@ksappareldesign.com" target="_blank" rel="noopener">katy@ksappareldesign.com</a>> wrote:</div>
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<div dir="ltr">John, are there supposed to be animations on these when I press play for them in blender? Otherwise I see the centers and hierarchy when I import as x3d. Will also test in c4d and etc.<br clear="all">
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<div><br><br>Katherine Schildmeyer</div>
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<div>KS Apparel Design & Consulting</div>
<a href="http://www.ksappareldesign.com" target="_blank" rel="noopener">www.ksappareldesign.com</a></div>
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PH: 503-367-4856<br>
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<div class="gmail_attr" dir="ltr">On Sat, Jun 29, 2024 at 5:18 AM John Carlson <<a href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noopener">yottzumm@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div>
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<div dir="ltr">I appear to have solved the problem with the Blender X3D addon (crosses fingers).
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<div>Perhaps someone is willing to do a final test before I attempt to incorporate it into a Blender addon.</div>
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<div>I will next try the example on Hanim Jin 20c for loading into Blender.</div>
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<div>Thanks for your support.</div>
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<div>John</div>
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