<div dir="ltr"><div>I think this short form (in XML encoding) makes sense, and Castle Game Engine / Castle Model Viewer could support it too.</div><div><br></div><div>It makes XML encoding and classic encoding more consistent: you can use PROTO to define a new node, and then use the new node with the same syntax as "built-in nodes". This is already true for classic encoding, it's nice to bring this feature to XML encoding.</div><div><br></div><div>Don has already expressed the important drawback of this "short form": such XML will not validate. I mean, it will validate in X3D-specific tools like "castle-model-converter --validate .." (once we add support for it), but the general XML validation using XML Schema has no way of validating it. You cannot tell in XML schema "this XML element name is valid, if defined by some XML attribute elsewhere". I'm guessing this was the whole reason why ProtoInstance, fieldValue etc. were invented in XML encoding. <br></div><div><br></div><div>I'm guessing in JSON X3D encoding, the consideration will be similar: it can be implemented, but the resulting file will not validate with JSON schema ( <a href="https://json-schema.org/">https://json-schema.org/</a> ).</div><div><br></div><div>Anyhow, if we're all fine with accepting this drawback, then we sure can go ahead and add it to spec :) As long as "long form" remains available, and thus tools like XML schema and JSON schema remain useful, I think it makes sense to have this choice.</div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div>Michalis</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">sob., 10 maj 2025 o 18:38 Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) via x3d-public <<a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org">x3d-public@web3d.org</a>> napisał(a):<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div class="msg2300767422086912682">




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Thanks for the interesting, innovative discussion.  Excerpting the example:</div>
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<span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><a href="https://create3000.github.io/x_ite/tutorials/creating-new-node-types/#using-prototyped-nodes" id="m_2300767422086912682LPlnkOWA2443507b-7427-05c8-57fa-df9850ce535b" style="margin:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-align:left" target="_blank">https://create3000.github.io/x_ite/tutorials/creating-new-node-types/#using-prototyped-nodes</a></span></div>
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XML Encoding</div>
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<ProtoInstance name='BouncingBall'>
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One drawback with the "short" XML syntax is that it will not pass XML DOCTYPE or XML Schema validation, although it still must conform to XML well-formed rules.  Additional tool-specific capabilities can check for such correctness during parsing, of course. 
 Avoiding XML validation relaxes quality assurance (QA)  for the entire scene, not just that prototype instance, and so use of the short form should be considered carefully.</div>
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Of course there is much merit too, not least of which are readability and consistency with other XML-encoded nodes.</div>
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As it turns out, now is a good time to consider such a change to the X3D Standards suite.  We have highly mature documents defining X3D encodings using XML and ClassicVRML syntax.  Conceivably a "short" form for ProtoInstance will carry over satisfactorily
 for JSON and other encodings as well, when we get to them this fall.</div>
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If X_ITE and X3DOM already handle this form, and if Castle Model Viewer (Castle Game Engine) is also supportive, I'm not yet seeing any blockers to adoption.  Further implementation and evaluation of course will be useful</div>
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Reference and specific clause that would need modification:</div>
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<div><span style="color:rgb(13,88,246)"><b><a href="https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4Draft/ISO-IEC19776-1v4.0-WD1/Part01/X3D_XML.html" id="m_2300767422086912682OWA4fa20d17-89bf-3b2b-6883-024038370573" style="color:rgb(13,88,246);margin:0px" target="_blank">X3D
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<div>4.3.3.2  ProtoInstance node and fieldValue statement syntax</div>
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Probably no changes needed:</div>
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<div><span style="color:rgb(13,88,246)"><b><a href="https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4Draft/ISO-IEC19776-2v4.0-WD1/Part02/X3D_ClassicVRML.html" id="m_2300767422086912682OWAee3f7b67-25b4-ba9a-1344-2437cac95823" style="color:rgb(13,88,246);margin:0px" target="_blank">X3D
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<div>4.3.3.2 Prototype instances and field value initialization syntax</div>
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<div><a href="https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4Draft/ISO-IEC19776-2v4.0-WD1/Part02/concepts.html#ProtoInstanceAndFieldValueStatement" id="m_2300767422086912682OWA7d84e734-10c2-4386-6bd9-95461bd96297" target="_blank">https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4Draft/ISO-IEC19776-2v4.0-WD1/Part02/concepts.html#ProtoInstanceAndFieldValueStatement</a></div>
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<div><span style="color:rgb(13,88,246)"><b><a href="https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4Draft/ISO-IEC19775-1v4.1-CD//Part01/Architecture.html" id="m_2300767422086912682OWAb9ca5ffe-b023-b0b4-2382-7069bbcaf042" style="color:rgb(13,88,246);margin:0px" target="_blank">X3D
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<div>4.4.4 Prototype semantics</div>
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Thanks for careful consideration of this potential capability.  All feedback welcome.</div>
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Have fun with X3D extensibility!  🙂</div>
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<p style="margin:0in;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:11pt"><span style="font-family:"Courier New";font-size:9pt">all the best, Don</span></p>
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<p style="margin:0in;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:11pt"><span style="font-family:"Courier New";font-size:9pt">Don Brutzman  Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br        <a href="mailto:brutzman@nps.edu" target="_blank">brutzman@nps.edu</a></span></p>
<p style="margin:0in;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:11pt"><span style="font-family:"Courier New";font-size:9pt">Watkins 270,  MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA    +1.831.656.2149</span></p>
<p style="margin:0in;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:11pt"><span style="font-family:"Courier New";font-size:9pt">X3D graphics, virtual worlds, navy robotics <a href="https://faculty.nps.edu/brutzman" target="_blank">https://faculty.nps.edu/brutzman</a></span></p>
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<b>From:</b> x3d-public on behalf of Holger Seelig via x3d-public<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, May 10, 2025 1:13 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> X3D<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Holger Seelig<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [x3d-public] Simplifying ProtoInstance nodes </div>
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<div>This is already possible if you use the „short syntax“ of a proto instance:</div>
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<div><a href="https://create3000.github.io/x_ite/tutorials/creating-new-node-types/#using-prototyped-nodes" id="m_2300767422086912682OWA7faffb5e-ba8d-82d5-ab0e-6d89dbd65ef1" target="_blank">https://create3000.github.io/x_ite/tutorials/creating-new-node-types/#using-prototyped-nodes</a></div>
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<div>You can use this in X_ITE, but also in X3DOM.</div>
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<div>Best regards,</div>
<div>Holger</div>
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--</div>
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Holger Seelig</div>
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Leipzig, Germany</div>
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<a href="mailto:holger.seelig@yahoo.de" target="_blank">holger.seelig@yahoo.de</a></div>
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<a href="https://create3000.github.io/x_ite/" target="_blank">https://create3000.github.io/x_ite/</a></div>
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<a href="https://patreon.com/X_ITE" target="_blank">https://patreon.com/X_ITE</a></div>
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<div>Am 10.05.2025 um 05:55 schrieb John Carlson via x3d-public <<a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org" target="_blank">x3d-public@web3d.org</a>>:</div>
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<div style="direction:ltr">My thought is to replace “ProtoInstance” tags with “MenuItem” tags, and fieldValue statements with attributes, but I’ve not done that before. My goal is to make the model more accessible to screen readers.</div>
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<div style="direction:ltr">Any examples are welcome.</div>
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<div style="direction:ltr">See attached link and model.</div>
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<div style="direction:ltr">John</div>
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<div style="direction:ltr">---------- Forwarded message ---------<br>
From: <b>John Carlson</b> <<a href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com" id="m_2300767422086912682OWAcd8a00ee-f042-648c-6f64-178e28a78ac1" target="_blank">yottzumm@gmail.com</a>><br>
Date: Thu, Mar 6, 2025 at 4:35 PM<br>
Subject: Latest cleaned Jin FACS (needs metadata)<br>
To: Don Brutzman <<a href="mailto:brutzman@nps.edu" id="m_2300767422086912682OWAd9904356-09a4-cdf5-3976-fb8473c5af2e" target="_blank">brutzman@nps.edu</a>>, Joe D Williams <<a href="mailto:joedwil@earthlink.net" id="m_2300767422086912682OWA5d445d7c-5882-aea3-c31c-4327a8b07653" target="_blank">joedwil@earthlink.net</a>></div>
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<div style="direction:ltr">Attached.</div>
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<div style="direction:ltr">And:</div>
<div style="direction:ltr"><a href="https://create3000.github.io/x_ite/playground/?url=https://raw.githubusercontent.com/coderextreme/ci2had/refs/heads/main/resources/CleanedYouClocks.x3d" id="m_2300767422086912682OWA2973ab79-c2b9-cc34-00e8-32a45e78126c" target="_blank">https://create3000.github.io/x_ite/playground/?url=https://raw.githubusercontent.com/coderextreme/ci2had/refs/heads/main/resources/CleanedYouClocks.x3d</a></div>
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<div style="direction:ltr">John</div>
<div><CleanedYouClocks.x3d>_______________________________________________<br>
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