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+1 on all counts, thanks for thoughtful consideration Michalis.</div>
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Further considerations are always welcome.</div>
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Next week Dick and I will review comments, then consider a Mantis issue and draft prose addition to X3D XML Encoding.</div>
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<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 9pt;">all the best, Don</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 9pt;">--</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 9pt;">Don Brutzman Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br brutzman@nps.edu</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 9pt;">Watkins 270, MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA +1.831.656.2149</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 9pt;">X3D graphics, virtual worlds, navy robotics https://faculty.nps.edu/brutzman</span></p>
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<b>From:</b> Michalis Kamburelis<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, May 10, 2025 11:38 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Extensible 3D (X3D) Graphics public discussion<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV)<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [x3d-public] Simplifying ProtoInstance nodes </div>
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<div style="direction: ltr;">I think this short form (in XML encoding) makes sense, and Castle Game Engine / Castle Model Viewer could support it too.</div>
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<div style="direction: ltr;">It makes XML encoding and classic encoding more consistent: you can use PROTO to define a new node, and then use the new node with the same syntax as "built-in nodes". This is already true for classic encoding, it's nice to bring
this feature to XML encoding.</div>
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<div style="direction: ltr;">Don has already expressed the important drawback of this "short form": such XML will not validate. I mean, it will validate in X3D-specific tools like "castle-model-converter --validate .." (once we add support for it), but the
general XML validation using XML Schema has no way of validating it. You cannot tell in XML schema "this XML element name is valid, if defined by some XML attribute elsewhere". I'm guessing this was the whole reason why ProtoInstance, fieldValue etc. were
invented in XML encoding.<br>
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<div style="direction: ltr;">I'm guessing in JSON X3D encoding, the consideration will be similar: it can be implemented, but the resulting file will not validate with JSON schema (
<a href="https://json-schema.org/" id="OWAc78c145a-1271-18d7-75cb-8d4871c7ff0e" class="OWAAutoLink" originalsrc="https://json-schema.org/" data-auth="NotApplicable">
https://json-schema.org/</a> ).</div>
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<div style="direction: ltr;">Anyhow, if we're all fine with accepting this drawback, then we sure can go ahead and add it to spec :) As long as "long form" remains available, and thus tools like XML schema and JSON schema remain useful, I think it makes sense
to have this choice.</div>
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<div style="direction: ltr;">Regards,</div>
<div style="direction: ltr;">Michalis</div>
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<div style="direction: ltr;">sob., 10 maj 2025 o 18:38 Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) via x3d-public <<a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org" id="OWA77025fa5-79a1-dc05-2b4b-42b3438b7844" class="OWAAutoLink">x3d-public@web3d.org</a>> napisał(a):<br>
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Thanks for the interesting, innovative discussion. Excerpting the example:</div>
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<div style="direction: ltr; font-size: 12pt;"><span style="background-color: white;"><a href="https://create3000.github.io/x_ite/tutorials/creating-new-node-types/#using-prototyped-nodes" id="OWAa0043303-ea24-239b-4e0c-b326991645ee" class="OWAAutoLink" originalsrc="https://create3000.github.io/x_ite/tutorials/creating-new-node-types/#using-prototyped-nodes" data-auth="NotApplicable" style="margin: 0px; background-color: white; text-align: left;">https://create3000.github.io/x_ite/tutorials/creating-new-node-types/#using-prototyped-nodes</a></span></div>
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XML Encoding</div>
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<ProtoInstance name='BouncingBall'>
<fieldValue name='cycleInterval' value='2'/>
<fieldValue name='bounceHeight' value='3'/>
</ProtoInstance>
<!-- </code><b><code style="font-family: SFMono-Regular, Menlo, Monaco, Consolas, "Liberation Mono", "Courier New", monospace;">Short Syntax </code></b><code style="font-family: SFMono-Regular, Menlo, Monaco, Consolas, "Liberation Mono", "Courier New", monospace;">-->
<BouncingBall
cycleInterval='2'
bounceHeight='3'/>
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Classic VRML Encoding</div>
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cycleInterval 2.0
bounceHeight 3.0
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One drawback with the "short" XML syntax is that it will not pass XML DOCTYPE or XML Schema validation, although it still must conform to XML well-formed rules. Additional tool-specific capabilities can check for such correctness during parsing, of course.
Avoiding XML validation relaxes quality assurance (QA) for the entire scene, not just that prototype instance, and so use of the short form should be considered carefully.</div>
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Of course there is much merit too, not least of which are readability and consistency with other XML-encoded nodes.</div>
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As it turns out, now is a good time to consider such a change to the X3D Standards suite. We have highly mature documents defining X3D encodings using XML and ClassicVRML syntax. Conceivably a "short" form for ProtoInstance will carry over satisfactorily
for JSON and other encodings as well, when we get to them this fall.</div>
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If X_ITE and X3DOM already handle this form, and if Castle Model Viewer (Castle Game Engine) is also supportive, I'm not yet seeing any blockers to adoption. Further implementation and evaluation of course will be useful</div>
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Reference and specific clause that would need modification:</div>
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<div style="direction: ltr;"><span style="color: rgb(13, 88, 246);"><b><a href="https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4Draft/ISO-IEC19776-1v4.0-WD1/Part01/X3D_XML.html" id="OWAff1da8bf-f1d2-f2bd-e28c-8b609d317563" class="OWAAutoLink" data-auth="NotApplicable" style="color: rgb(13, 88, 246); margin: 0px;">X3D
XML Encoding 4.0</a></b></span><b> </b>revision 19776-1</div>
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<div style="direction: ltr;">4.3.3.2 ProtoInstance node and fieldValue statement syntax</div>
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<div style="direction: ltr;"><a href="https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4Draft/ISO-IEC19776-1v4.0-WD1/Part01/concepts.html#ProtoInstanceAndFieldValueStatement" id="OWA7b99873f-8cf0-d01a-debc-00afdc952316" class="OWAAutoLink" data-auth="NotApplicable">https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4Draft/ISO-IEC19776-1v4.0-WD1/Part01/concepts.html#ProtoInstanceAndFieldValueStatement</a></div>
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Probably no changes needed:</div>
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<div style="direction: ltr;"><span style="color: rgb(13, 88, 246);"><b><a href="https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4Draft/ISO-IEC19776-2v4.0-WD1/Part02/X3D_ClassicVRML.html" id="OWA597b16c0-08cd-d731-6bea-18266e0b7c3a" class="OWAAutoLink" data-auth="NotApplicable" style="color: rgb(13, 88, 246); margin: 0px;">X3D
Classic VRML Encoding 4.0</a></b></span><b> </b>revision 19776-2</div>
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<div style="direction: ltr;">4.3.3.2 Prototype instances and field value initialization syntax</div>
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<div style="direction: ltr;"><a href="https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4Draft/ISO-IEC19776-2v4.0-WD1/Part02/concepts.html#ProtoInstanceAndFieldValueStatement" id="OWA4966b883-8ce2-6e03-8c23-d72a89249447" class="OWAAutoLink" data-auth="NotApplicable">https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4Draft/ISO-IEC19776-2v4.0-WD1/Part02/concepts.html#ProtoInstanceAndFieldValueStatement</a></div>
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<div style="direction: ltr;"><span style="color: rgb(13, 88, 246);"><b><a href="https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4Draft/ISO-IEC19775-1v4.1-CD//Part01/Architecture.html" id="OWA5d3e62ce-3b38-e733-ef6b-0bfa6630ca5e" class="OWAAutoLink" data-auth="NotApplicable" style="color: rgb(13, 88, 246); margin: 0px;">X3D
Architecture 4.1</a></b></span>, revision 19775-1</div>
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<div style="direction: ltr;">4.4.4 Prototype semantics</div>
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<div style="direction: ltr;"><a href="https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4Draft/ISO-IEC19775-1v4.1-CD//Part01/concepts.html#PrototypeSemantics" id="OWAc16e22d7-68c8-da24-8259-4816ee307ab7" class="OWAAutoLink" data-auth="NotApplicable">https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4Draft/ISO-IEC19775-1v4.1-CD//Part01/concepts.html#PrototypeSemantics</a></div>
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Thanks for careful consideration of this potential capability. All feedback welcome.</div>
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Have fun with X3D extensibility! 🙂</div>
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<p style="margin: 0px; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 9pt;">all the best, Don</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0px; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 9pt;">--</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0px; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 9pt;">Don Brutzman Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br
<a href="mailto:brutzman@nps.edu" id="OWA231d6536-4a10-1130-4e17-32a7f90082c8" class="OWAAutoLink" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">
brutzman@nps.edu</a></span></p>
<p style="margin: 0px; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 9pt;">Watkins 270, MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA +1.831.656.2149</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0px; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 9pt;">X3D graphics, virtual worlds, navy robotics
<a href="https://faculty.nps.edu/brutzman" id="OWA19056e64-b61f-c879-b51c-29d23bfe8a27" class="OWAAutoLink" data-auth="NotApplicable" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">
https://faculty.nps.edu/brutzman</a></span></p>
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<b>From:</b> x3d-public on behalf of Holger Seelig via x3d-public<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, May 10, 2025 1:13 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> X3D<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Holger Seelig<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [x3d-public] Simplifying ProtoInstance nodes</div>
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<div style="direction: ltr;">This is already possible if you use the „short syntax“ of a proto instance:</div>
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<div style="direction: ltr;"><a href="https://create3000.github.io/x_ite/tutorials/creating-new-node-types/#using-prototyped-nodes" id="OWAd3307f32-1392-a922-ce13-ae8fb72eb381" class="OWAAutoLink" originalsrc="https://create3000.github.io/x_ite/tutorials/creating-new-node-types/#using-prototyped-nodes" data-auth="NotApplicable">https://create3000.github.io/x_ite/tutorials/creating-new-node-types/#using-prototyped-nodes</a></div>
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<div style="direction: ltr;">You can use this in X_ITE, but also in X3DOM.</div>
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<div style="direction: ltr;">Best regards,</div>
<div style="direction: ltr;">Holger</div>
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<div style="direction: ltr; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; color: black;">--</div>
<div style="direction: ltr; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; color: black;">Holger Seelig</div>
<div style="direction: ltr; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; color: black;">Leipzig, Germany</div>
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<div style="direction: ltr; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; color: black;"><a href="mailto:holger.seelig@yahoo.de" id="OWAacfe610e-506d-b2cb-669b-df6bf3a79fc9" class="OWAAutoLink">holger.seelig@yahoo.de</a></div>
<div style="direction: ltr; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; color: black;"><a href="https://create3000.github.io/x_ite/" id="OWAb85ae6cb-e2d7-6d10-7e06-6d3e5d6593d2" class="OWAAutoLink" originalsrc="https://create3000.github.io/x_ite/" data-auth="NotApplicable">https://create3000.github.io/x_ite/</a></div>
<div style="direction: ltr; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; color: black;"><a href="https://patreon.com/X_ITE" id="OWAbb0f5bdb-8097-289f-f72c-b116b7528282" class="OWAAutoLink" originalsrc="https://patreon.com/X_ITE" data-auth="NotApplicable">https://patreon.com/X_ITE</a></div>
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<blockquote>
<div style="direction: ltr;">Am 10.05.2025 um 05:55 schrieb John Carlson via x3d-public <<a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org" id="OWA054e8f67-eb7f-902d-34b6-c65a31f2b490" class="OWAAutoLink">x3d-public@web3d.org</a>>:</div>
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<div style="direction: ltr;">My thought is to replace “ProtoInstance” tags with “MenuItem” tags, and fieldValue statements with attributes, but I’ve not done that before. My goal is to make the model more accessible to screen readers.</div>
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<div style="direction: ltr;">Any examples are welcome.</div>
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<div style="direction: ltr;">See attached link and model.</div>
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<div style="direction: ltr;">John</div>
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<div style="direction: ltr;">---------- Forwarded message ---------<br>
From: <b>John Carlson</b> <<a href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com" id="OWA4f535072-4769-1fda-0dbe-50b836250355" class="OWAAutoLink">yottzumm@gmail.com</a>><br>
Date: Thu, Mar 6, 2025 at 4:35 PM<br>
Subject: Latest cleaned Jin FACS (needs metadata)<br>
To: Don Brutzman <<a href="mailto:brutzman@nps.edu" id="OWA9a9fe142-c148-f6d4-fb34-73da04c035b3" class="OWAAutoLink">brutzman@nps.edu</a>>, Joe D Williams <<a href="mailto:joedwil@earthlink.net" id="OWAaddcda72-3793-8a1e-6350-37ecd1f126ae" class="OWAAutoLink">joedwil@earthlink.net</a>></div>
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<div style="direction: ltr;">Attached.</div>
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<div style="direction: ltr;">And:</div>
<div style="direction: ltr;"><a href="https://create3000.github.io/x_ite/playground/?url=https://raw.githubusercontent.com/coderextreme/ci2had/refs/heads/main/resources/CleanedYouClocks.x3d" id="OWAe4b4395e-0510-2619-2f56-4ce0108ea66d" class="OWAAutoLink" originalsrc="https://create3000.github.io/x_ite/playground/?url=https://raw.githubusercontent.com/coderextreme/ci2had/refs/heads/main/resources/CleanedYouClocks.x3d" data-auth="NotApplicable">https://create3000.github.io/x_ite/playground/?url=https://raw.githubusercontent.com/coderextreme/ci2had/refs/heads/main/resources/CleanedYouClocks.x3d</a></div>
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<div style="direction: ltr;">John</div>
<div style="direction: ltr;"><CleanedYouClocks.x3d>_______________________________________________<br>
x3d-public mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org" id="OWA8dda054a-22d3-5a35-5cc6-c9ebc0b7b389" class="OWAAutoLink">x3d-public@web3d.org</a><br>
<a href="http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org" id="OWAd7238d72-bf76-1e8c-d203-a71733b5ed8b" class="OWAAutoLink" data-auth="NotApplicable">http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org</a></div>
</blockquote>
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<div>_______________________________________________<br>
x3d-public mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org" id="OWA2e14901c-0857-cf14-22cd-e16a2b7c6048" class="OWAAutoLink">x3d-public@web3d.org</a><br>
<a href="http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org" id="OWAcf7bcd2a-15b6-168c-629b-26c3f3d55cc8" class="OWAAutoLink" rel="noreferrer" data-auth="NotApplicable">http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org</a><br>
</div>
</blockquote>
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