<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="overflow-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;">There is another drawback which already exist in VRML encoding. What take precedence if a PROTO is named as a build-in node. Consider a PROTO named Box with a Sphere as root node. What is happening if a Box is now instantiated?<div><br></div><div>PROTO Box []</div><div>{</div><div> Sphere {}</div><div>}</div><div><br></div><div>Shape {</div><div> Box {}</div><div>}</div><div><br></div><div>This behaviour is not handled by the specification, but X_ITE does the following: build-in nodes will take precedence over over PROTO nodes, it will still display a Box node. Don’t know what Caste or X3DOM does. With current XML encoding this is very cleared and there is no prob at all. But in VRML encoding or with XML „short syntax“ this may be worth a spec comment.</div><div><br></div><div>Best regards,</div><div>Holger </div><div><br id="lineBreakAtBeginningOfMessage"><div>
<div dir="auto" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; overflow-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;"><div dir="auto" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; overflow-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;"><div dir="auto" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; overflow-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;"><div dir="auto" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; overflow-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;"><div dir="auto" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; overflow-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;"><div dir="auto" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; overflow-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;"><div dir="auto" style="text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;"><div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; text-decoration: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;">--</div><div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; text-decoration: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;">Holger Seelig</div><div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; text-decoration: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;">Leipzig, Germany</div><div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; text-decoration: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><br></div><div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; text-decoration: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;">holger.seelig@yahoo.de</div><div>https://create3000.github.io/x_ite/</div><div>https://patreon.com/X_ITE</div><div><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
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<div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div>Am 10.05.2025 um 20:44 schrieb Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) via x3d-public <x3d-public@web3d.org>:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div><meta charset="UTF-8"><div class="elementToProof" style="font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;">+1 on all counts, thanks for thoughtful consideration Michalis.</div><div class="elementToProof" style="font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><br></div><div class="elementToProof" style="font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;">Further considerations are always welcome.</div><div class="elementToProof" style="font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><br></div><div class="elementToProof" style="font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;">Next week Dick and I will review comments, then consider a Mantis issue and draft prose addition to X3D XML Encoding.</div><div id="Signature" class="elementToProof" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><div style="margin: 0in; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 9pt;"><br></span></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 9pt;">all the best, Don</span></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 9pt;">--</span></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 9pt;">Don Brutzman Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:brutzman@nps.edu">brutzman@nps.edu</a></span></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 9pt;">Watkins 270, MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA +1.831.656.2149</span></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 9pt;">X3D graphics, virtual worlds, navy robotics<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://faculty.nps.edu/brutzman">https://faculty.nps.edu/brutzman</a></span></div><p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 9pt;"> </span></p></div><div id="appendonsend" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"></div><div style="font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"><br></div><hr style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; display: inline-block; width: 1003.515625px;"><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;"></span><div class="elementToProof" style="font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"><b>From:</b> Michalis Kamburelis<br><b>Sent:</b> Saturday, May 10, 2025 11:38 AM<br><b>To:</b> Extensible 3D (X3D) Graphics public discussion<br><b>Cc:</b> Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV)<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [x3d-public] Simplifying ProtoInstance nodes<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></div><div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><br></div><div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; direction: ltr;">I think this short form (in XML encoding) makes sense, and Castle Game Engine / Castle Model Viewer could support it too.</div><div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; direction: ltr;"><br></div><div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; direction: ltr;">It makes XML encoding and classic encoding more consistent: you can use PROTO to define a new node, and then use the new node with the same syntax as "built-in nodes". This is already true for classic encoding, it's nice to bring this feature to XML encoding.</div><div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; direction: ltr;"><br></div><div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; direction: ltr;">Don has already expressed the important drawback of this "short form": such XML will not validate. I mean, it will validate in X3D-specific tools like "castle-model-converter --validate .." (once we add support for it), but the general XML validation using XML Schema has no way of validating it. You cannot tell in XML schema "this XML element name is valid, if defined by some XML attribute elsewhere". I'm guessing this was the whole reason why ProtoInstance, fieldValue etc. were invented in XML encoding.<br></div><div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; direction: ltr;"><br></div><div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; direction: ltr;">I'm guessing in JSON X3D encoding, the consideration will be similar: it can be implemented, but the resulting file will not validate with JSON schema (<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://json-schema.org/" id="OWAc78c145a-1271-18d7-75cb-8d4871c7ff0e" class="OWAAutoLink" originalsrc="https://json-schema.org/" data-auth="NotApplicable">https://json-schema.org/</a> ).</div><div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; direction: ltr;"><br></div><div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; direction: ltr;">Anyhow, if we're all fine with accepting this drawback, then we sure can go ahead and add it to spec :) As long as "long form" remains available, and thus tools like XML schema and JSON schema remain useful, I think it makes sense to have this choice.</div><div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; direction: ltr;"><br></div><div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; direction: ltr;">Regards,</div><div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; direction: ltr;">Michalis</div><div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><br></div><div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; direction: ltr;">sob., 10 maj 2025 o 18:38 Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) via x3d-public <<a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org" id="OWA77025fa5-79a1-dc05-2b4b-42b3438b7844" class="OWAAutoLink">x3d-public@web3d.org</a>> napisał(a):<br></div><blockquote style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204);"><div style="direction: ltr; font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;">Thanks for the interesting, innovative discussion. Excerpting the example:</div><div style="direction: ltr; font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><br></div><ul style="direction: ltr; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; list-style-position: initial; list-style-type: disc;"><li style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><div style="direction: ltr; font-size: 12pt;"><span style="background-color: white;"><a href="https://create3000.github.io/x_ite/tutorials/creating-new-node-types/#using-prototyped-nodes" id="OWAa0043303-ea24-239b-4e0c-b326991645ee" class="OWAAutoLink" originalsrc="https://create3000.github.io/x_ite/tutorials/creating-new-node-types/#using-prototyped-nodes" data-auth="NotApplicable" style="margin: 0px; background-color: white; text-align: left;">https://create3000.github.io/x_ite/tutorials/creating-new-node-types/#using-prototyped-nodes</a></span></div></li></ul><div style="direction: ltr; font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><br></div><div style="direction: ltr; font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;">_________________________</div><div style="direction: ltr; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; line-height: 1.2; margin: 2px; font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;">XML Encoding</div><table style="direction: ltr; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; border-collapse: collapse; border-spacing: 0px;"><tbody><tr><td style="direction: ltr; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; padding: 5px; color: rgb(104, 113, 122); box-sizing: border-box;"><pre style="margin: 0px; display: block;"><div style="direction: ltr; text-align: right; text-indent: 0px; line-height: 1.4rem; font-family: SFMono-Regular, Menlo, Monaco, Consolas, "Liberation Mono", "Courier New", monospace; font-size: 11pt;"><code style="font-family: SFMono-Regular, Menlo, Monaco, Consolas, "Liberation Mono", "Courier New", monospace;">1
2
3
4
5
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</code></div></pre></td><td style="direction: ltr; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; padding: 5px; box-sizing: border-box;"><pre style="margin: 0px; display: block;"><div style="direction: ltr; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; line-height: 1.4rem; font-family: SFMono-Regular, Menlo, Monaco, Consolas, "Liberation Mono", "Courier New", monospace; font-size: 11pt;"><code style="font-family: SFMono-Regular, Menlo, Monaco, Consolas, "Liberation Mono", "Courier New", monospace;"><!--</code><b><code style="font-family: SFMono-Regular, Menlo, Monaco, Consolas, "Liberation Mono", "Courier New", monospace;"> Official Syntax </code></b><code style="font-family: SFMono-Regular, Menlo, Monaco, Consolas, "Liberation Mono", "Courier New", monospace;">-->
<ProtoInstance name='BouncingBall'>
<fieldValue name='cycleInterval' value='2'/>
<fieldValue name='bounceHeight' value='3'/>
</ProtoInstance>
<!-- </code><b><code style="font-family: SFMono-Regular, Menlo, Monaco, Consolas, "Liberation Mono", "Courier New", monospace;">Short Syntax </code></b><code style="font-family: SFMono-Regular, Menlo, Monaco, Consolas, "Liberation Mono", "Courier New", monospace;">-->
<BouncingBall
cycleInterval='2'
bounceHeight='3'/>
</code></div></pre></td></tr></tbody></table><div style="direction: ltr; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; line-height: 1.2; margin: 2px; font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;">Classic VRML Encoding</div><table style="direction: ltr; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; border-collapse: collapse; border-spacing: 0px;"><tbody><tr><td style="direction: ltr; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; padding: 5px; color: rgb(104, 113, 122); box-sizing: border-box;"><pre style="margin: 0px; display: block;"><div style="direction: ltr; text-align: right; text-indent: 0px; line-height: 1.4rem; font-family: SFMono-Regular, Menlo, Monaco, Consolas, "Liberation Mono", "Courier New", monospace; font-size: 11pt;"><code style="font-family: SFMono-Regular, Menlo, Monaco, Consolas, "Liberation Mono", "Courier New", monospace;">1
2
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</code></div></pre></td><td style="direction: ltr; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; padding: 5px; box-sizing: border-box;"><pre style="margin: 0px; display: block;"><div style="direction: ltr; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; line-height: 1.4rem; font-family: SFMono-Regular, Menlo, Monaco, Consolas, "Liberation Mono", "Courier New", monospace; font-size: 11pt;"><code style="font-family: SFMono-Regular, Menlo, Monaco, Consolas, "Liberation Mono", "Courier New", monospace;">BouncingBall {
cycleInterval 2.0
bounceHeight 3.0
}
</code></div></pre></td></tr></tbody></table><div style="direction: ltr; font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;">_________________________</div><div style="direction: ltr; font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><br></div><div style="direction: ltr; font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;">One drawback with the "short" XML syntax is that it will not pass XML DOCTYPE or XML Schema validation, although it still must conform to XML well-formed rules. Additional tool-specific capabilities can check for such correctness during parsing, of course. Avoiding XML validation relaxes quality assurance (QA) for the entire scene, not just that prototype instance, and so use of the short form should be considered carefully.</div><div style="direction: ltr; font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><br></div><div style="direction: ltr; font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;">Of course there is much merit too, not least of which are readability and consistency with other XML-encoded nodes.</div><div style="direction: ltr; font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><br></div><div style="direction: ltr; font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;">As it turns out, now is a good time to consider such a change to the X3D Standards suite. We have highly mature documents defining X3D encodings using XML and ClassicVRML syntax. Conceivably a "short" form for ProtoInstance will carry over satisfactorily for JSON and other encodings as well, when we get to them this fall.</div><div style="direction: ltr; font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><br></div><div style="direction: ltr; font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;">If X_ITE and X3DOM already handle this form, and if Castle Model Viewer (Castle Game Engine) is also supportive, I'm not yet seeing any blockers to adoption. Further implementation and evaluation of course will be useful</div><div style="direction: ltr; font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><br></div><div style="direction: ltr; font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;">Reference and specific clause that would need modification:</div><div style="direction: ltr; font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><br></div><ul style="direction: ltr; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; list-style-position: initial; list-style-type: disc;"><li style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><div style="direction: ltr;"><span style="color: rgb(13, 88, 246);"><b><a href="https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4Draft/ISO-IEC19776-1v4.0-WD1/Part01/X3D_XML.html" id="OWAff1da8bf-f1d2-f2bd-e28c-8b609d317563" class="OWAAutoLink" data-auth="NotApplicable" style="color: rgb(13, 88, 246); margin: 0px;">X3D XML Encoding 4.0</a></b></span><b> </b>revision 19776-1</div></li><li style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><div style="direction: ltr;">4.3.3.2 ProtoInstance node and fieldValue statement syntax</div></li><li style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><div style="direction: ltr;"><a href="https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4Draft/ISO-IEC19776-1v4.0-WD1/Part01/concepts.html#ProtoInstanceAndFieldValueStatement" id="OWA7b99873f-8cf0-d01a-debc-00afdc952316" class="OWAAutoLink" data-auth="NotApplicable">https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4Draft/ISO-IEC19776-1v4.0-WD1/Part01/concepts.html#ProtoInstanceAndFieldValueStatement</a></div><div style="direction: ltr;"><br></div></li></ul><div style="direction: ltr; font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;">Probably no changes needed:</div><div style="direction: ltr; font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><br></div><ul style="direction: ltr; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; list-style-position: initial; list-style-type: disc;"><li style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; margin: 0px;"><div style="direction: ltr;"><span style="color: rgb(13, 88, 246);"><b><a href="https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4Draft/ISO-IEC19776-2v4.0-WD1/Part02/X3D_ClassicVRML.html" id="OWA597b16c0-08cd-d731-6bea-18266e0b7c3a" class="OWAAutoLink" data-auth="NotApplicable" style="color: rgb(13, 88, 246); margin: 0px;">X3D Classic VRML Encoding 4.0</a></b></span><b> </b>revision 19776-2</div></li><li style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><div style="direction: ltr;">4.3.3.2 Prototype instances and field value initialization syntax</div></li><li style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><div style="direction: ltr;"><a href="https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4Draft/ISO-IEC19776-2v4.0-WD1/Part02/concepts.html#ProtoInstanceAndFieldValueStatement" id="OWA4966b883-8ce2-6e03-8c23-d72a89249447" class="OWAAutoLink" data-auth="NotApplicable">https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4Draft/ISO-IEC19776-2v4.0-WD1/Part02/concepts.html#ProtoInstanceAndFieldValueStatement</a></div><div style="direction: ltr;"><br></div></li><li style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><div style="direction: ltr;"><span style="color: rgb(13, 88, 246);"><b><a href="https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4Draft/ISO-IEC19775-1v4.1-CD//Part01/Architecture.html" id="OWA5d3e62ce-3b38-e733-ef6b-0bfa6630ca5e" class="OWAAutoLink" data-auth="NotApplicable" style="color: rgb(13, 88, 246); margin: 0px;">X3D Architecture 4.1</a></b></span>, revision 19775-1</div></li><li style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><div style="direction: ltr;">4.4.4 Prototype semantics</div></li><li style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><div style="direction: ltr;"><a href="https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4Draft/ISO-IEC19775-1v4.1-CD//Part01/concepts.html#PrototypeSemantics" id="OWAc16e22d7-68c8-da24-8259-4816ee307ab7" class="OWAAutoLink" data-auth="NotApplicable">https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4Draft/ISO-IEC19775-1v4.1-CD//Part01/concepts.html#PrototypeSemantics</a></div></li></ul><div style="direction: ltr; font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><br></div><div style="direction: ltr; font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;">Thanks for careful consideration of this potential capability. All feedback welcome.</div><div style="direction: ltr; font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><br></div><div style="direction: ltr; font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;">Have fun with X3D extensibility! 🙂</div><div style="direction: ltr; font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><br></div><div id="x_m_2300767422086912682Signature"><div style="margin: 0px; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 9pt;">all the best, Don</span></div><div style="margin: 0px; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 9pt;">--</span></div><div style="margin: 0px; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 9pt;">Don Brutzman Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:brutzman@nps.edu" id="OWA231d6536-4a10-1130-4e17-32a7f90082c8" class="OWAAutoLink" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">brutzman@nps.edu</a></span></div><div style="margin: 0px; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 9pt;">Watkins 270, MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA +1.831.656.2149</span></div><div style="margin: 0px; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 9pt;">X3D graphics, virtual worlds, navy robotics<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://faculty.nps.edu/brutzman" id="OWA19056e64-b61f-c879-b51c-29d23bfe8a27" class="OWAAutoLink" data-auth="NotApplicable" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">https://faculty.nps.edu/brutzman</a></span></div><p style="margin: 0px; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 9pt;"> </span></p></div><div id="x_m_2300767422086912682appendonsend"></div><div style="direction: ltr; font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"><br></div><hr style="direction: ltr; display: inline-block; width: 991.484375px;"><div style="direction: ltr; font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"><b>From:</b> x3d-public on behalf of Holger Seelig via x3d-public<br><b>Sent:</b> Saturday, May 10, 2025 1:13 AM<br><b>To:</b> X3D<br><b>Cc:</b> Holger Seelig<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [x3d-public] Simplifying ProtoInstance nodes</div><div style="direction: ltr; font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"><br></div><div style="direction: ltr;">This is already possible if you use the „short syntax“ of a proto instance:</div><div style="direction: ltr;"><br></div><div style="direction: ltr;"><a href="https://create3000.github.io/x_ite/tutorials/creating-new-node-types/#using-prototyped-nodes" id="OWAd3307f32-1392-a922-ce13-ae8fb72eb381" class="OWAAutoLink" originalsrc="https://create3000.github.io/x_ite/tutorials/creating-new-node-types/#using-prototyped-nodes" data-auth="NotApplicable">https://create3000.github.io/x_ite/tutorials/creating-new-node-types/#using-prototyped-nodes</a></div><div style="direction: ltr;"><br></div><div style="direction: ltr;">You can use this in X_ITE, but also in X3DOM.</div><div style="direction: ltr;"><br></div><div style="direction: ltr;">Best regards,</div><div style="direction: ltr;">Holger</div><div style="direction: ltr;"><br></div><div style="direction: ltr; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px;">--</div><div style="direction: ltr; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px;">Holger Seelig</div><div style="direction: ltr; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px;">Leipzig, Germany</div><div style="direction: ltr; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px;"><br></div><div style="direction: ltr; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px;"><a href="mailto:holger.seelig@yahoo.de" id="OWAacfe610e-506d-b2cb-669b-df6bf3a79fc9" class="OWAAutoLink">holger.seelig@yahoo.de</a></div><div style="direction: ltr; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px;"><a href="https://create3000.github.io/x_ite/" id="OWAb85ae6cb-e2d7-6d10-7e06-6d3e5d6593d2" class="OWAAutoLink" originalsrc="https://create3000.github.io/x_ite/" data-auth="NotApplicable">https://create3000.github.io/x_ite/</a></div><div style="direction: ltr; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px;"><a href="https://patreon.com/X_ITE" id="OWAbb0f5bdb-8097-289f-f72c-b116b7528282" class="OWAAutoLink" originalsrc="https://patreon.com/X_ITE" data-auth="NotApplicable">https://patreon.com/X_ITE</a></div><div style="direction: ltr; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px;"><br></div><div style="direction: ltr;"><br></div><div style="direction: ltr;"><br></div><blockquote><div style="direction: ltr;">Am 10.05.2025 um 05:55 schrieb John Carlson via x3d-public <<a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org" id="OWA054e8f67-eb7f-902d-34b6-c65a31f2b490" class="OWAAutoLink">x3d-public@web3d.org</a>>:</div><div style="direction: ltr;"><br></div><div style="direction: ltr;">My thought is to replace “ProtoInstance” tags with “MenuItem” tags, and fieldValue statements with attributes, but I’ve not done that before. My goal is to make the model more accessible to screen readers.</div><div style="direction: ltr;"><br></div><div style="direction: ltr;">Any examples are welcome.</div><div style="direction: ltr;"><br></div><div style="direction: ltr;">See attached link and model.</div><div style="direction: ltr;"><br></div><div style="direction: ltr;">John</div><div style="direction: ltr;"><br></div><div style="direction: ltr;">---------- Forwarded message ---------<br>From:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b>John Carlson</b> <<a href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com" id="OWA4f535072-4769-1fda-0dbe-50b836250355" class="OWAAutoLink">yottzumm@gmail.com</a>><br>Date: Thu, Mar 6, 2025 at 4:35 PM<br>Subject: Latest cleaned Jin FACS (needs metadata)<br>To: Don Brutzman <<a href="mailto:brutzman@nps.edu" id="OWA9a9fe142-c148-f6d4-fb34-73da04c035b3" class="OWAAutoLink">brutzman@nps.edu</a>>, Joe D Williams <<a href="mailto:joedwil@earthlink.net" id="OWAaddcda72-3793-8a1e-6350-37ecd1f126ae" class="OWAAutoLink">joedwil@earthlink.net</a>></div><div style="direction: ltr;"><br><br></div><div style="direction: ltr;">Attached.</div><div style="direction: ltr;"><br></div><div style="direction: ltr;">And:</div><div style="direction: ltr;"><a href="https://create3000.github.io/x_ite/playground/?url=https://raw.githubusercontent.com/coderextreme/ci2had/refs/heads/main/resources/CleanedYouClocks.x3d" id="OWAe4b4395e-0510-2619-2f56-4ce0108ea66d" class="OWAAutoLink" originalsrc="https://create3000.github.io/x_ite/playground/?url=https://raw.githubusercontent.com/coderextreme/ci2had/refs/heads/main/resources/CleanedYouClocks.x3d" data-auth="NotApplicable">https://create3000.github.io/x_ite/playground/?url=https://raw.githubusercontent.com/coderextreme/ci2had/refs/heads/main/resources/CleanedYouClocks.x3d</a></div><div style="direction: ltr;"><br></div><div style="direction: ltr;">John</div><div style="direction: ltr;"><CleanedYouClocks.x3d>_______________________________________________<br>x3d-public mailing list<br><a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org" id="OWA8dda054a-22d3-5a35-5cc6-c9ebc0b7b389" class="OWAAutoLink">x3d-public@web3d.org</a><br><a href="http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org" id="OWAd7238d72-bf76-1e8c-d203-a71733b5ed8b" class="OWAAutoLink" data-auth="NotApplicable">http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org</a></div></blockquote><div style="direction: ltr;"><br></div><div>_______________________________________________<br>x3d-public mailing list<br><a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org" id="OWA2e14901c-0857-cf14-22cd-e16a2b7c6048" class="OWAAutoLink">x3d-public@web3d.org</a><br><a href="http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org" id="OWAcf7bcd2a-15b6-168c-629b-26c3f3d55cc8" class="OWAAutoLink" rel="noreferrer" data-auth="NotApplicable">http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org</a><br></div></blockquote><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); 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