<div dir="ltr"><div>Thanks Carol, yes it is a possible technique of interest.</div><div><br></div><div>I think composition or exclusion of skin (and segment geometry) under a clothing mesh might vary quite a bit, even more than in the real world. We should figure out requirements for common use cases and author/designer expectations:</div><div><ul><li>author can control visibility of different layers,</li><li>partial or full transparency of outer clothing is a run-time option, meaning that both might be rendered,</li><li>non-visible layers do not have to be rendering (but defining whether something is "visible" or obscured can be tricky)</li></ul><div>Happily we don't have to worry very much about too-large meshes, there is relentless progress in that area (both hardware and software). We can design first for success, then tighten if needed or offer more options later.</div></div><div><ul><li><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:12.7px">"premature optimization is the root of all evil" - Donald Knuth</span></li><li><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:12.7px"><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Program_optimization" target="_blank">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Program_optimization</a></span></li></ul><div>As an example of such emerging (and very capable) mesh-distillation capabilities:</div></div><div><ul><li>The Best-in-Class Tools for Your 3D Processing Jobs<br>RapidPipeline lets you convert, optimize and prepare your 3D models, easily.</li><li><a href="https://rapidpipeline.com" target="_blank">https://rapidpipeline.com</a></li></ul></div><div><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">p.s. Carol, </span>we have<span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"> a shared google-drive location for your continuing specification-change proposals. Given the volume of potential prose improvements, I can add comments in your document when suggested modifications are applied to the draft specification. From the existing HAnim 2.1 draft, please use the listed directory for proposed changes:</span></div><div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div style="color:rgb(34,34,34)"><ul><li><font face="arial, sans-serif">HAnim architecture v2.1 draft</font></li><li><font face="arial, sans-serif"><a href="https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4Draft/ISO-IEC19774/" target="_blank">https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4Draft/ISO-IEC19774/</a></font></li><li><font face="arial, sans-serif"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:16px;text-align:center;background-color:rgb(224,255,255)">Under discussion: </span><a href="https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1cPZ57p7Ml9yhdKLNZMmuRgq30eWBypXA" style="font-family:Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:16px;text-align:center;background-color:rgb(0,255,255)" target="_blank">proposed changes for HAnim 2.1</a></font></li></ul></div><div style="color:rgb(34,34,34)"><font face="arial, sans-serif">Onward we go. Have fun with HAnim! 🎩👒👕👖👗👚👛👝👞👟👠👢🥼🧍🚶💇🧘🤸🤾⛹️🚴🏌️⛷️🏂🪂🏄</font></div><div style="color:rgb(34,34,34)"><font face="monospace"><br></font></div><div style="color:rgb(34,34,34)"><font face="monospace">all the best, Don</font></div><div style="color:rgb(34,34,34)"><font face="monospace">-- </font></div><div style="color:rgb(34,34,34)"><font face="monospace">X3D Graphics, Maritime Robotics, Distributed Simulation</font></div><div style="color:rgb(34,34,34)"><font face="monospace">Relative Motion Consulting <a href="https://RelativeMotion.info" target="_blank">https://RelativeMotion.info</a></font></div></div></div></div><br></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Oct 28, 2025 at 5:01 AM Carol McDonald <<a href="mailto:cemd2@comcast.net" target="_blank">cemd2@comcast.net</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><u></u>
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<span style="font-family:helvetica;font-size:12pt">In Monday's meeting, it was mentioned that for coveriods, a cage (or lighter mesh) is put around the body for clothing and the body mesh removed. One of the reasons is that body meshes can be very dense and larger files. </span>
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<span style="font-family:helvetica;font-size:12pt">Carol </span>
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On 10/27/2025 12:55 PM PDT Don Brutzman <<a href="mailto:don.brutzman@gmail.com" target="_blank">don.brutzman@gmail.com</a>> wrote:
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Hello everyone, lots of great progress to discuss in our upcoming weekly meeting today, quickly reviewing details on mailing lists.
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Most topics are ongoing can be covered briefly and quickly, and so have added suggested timings listed for each.
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1. (10 minutes) <strong>HAnim and Clothing</strong>. Dick and I have proposed a section on suggested design improvements for HAnim to support coveroid and wearables.
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<li>HAnim Architecture draft v2.1, 4.2.2 Humanoid coordinate system</li>
<li><a href="https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4Draft/ISO-IEC19774/ISO-IEC19774-1/ISO-IEC19774-1v2.1/ISO-IEC19774-1v2.1-WD/Architecture/concepts.html#HumanoidCoordinateSystem" target="_blank">ISO/IEC 19774-1:202x V2.1 — 4 Concepts</a></li>
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<span style="background-color:rgb(0,255,255)">Editors note: Need to describe overall design for Humanoid to have multiple layers. Start with skeleton, work up to internal organs and musculature, then skin, then coveroid layers... Requirements include:</span>
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<li style="margin-top:4px"><span style="background-color:rgb(0,255,255)">It must be possible to independently select which layers are active in the current model.</span></li>
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<li style="margin-top:4px"><span style="background-color:rgb(0,255,255)">Layers must be rendered in the correct order.</span></li>
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<li style="margin-top:4px"><span style="background-color:rgb(0,255,255)">If a particular layer has no geometry, it is not active</span></li>
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<li style="margin-top:4px"><span style="background-color:rgb(0,255,255)">What are requirements for definition of attachment points between layers?</span></li>
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<li style="margin-top:4px"><span style="background-color:rgb(0,255,255)">Can <span style="font-weight:bold">Site</span> object be applied consistently in context of each of the layers?</span></li>
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<li style="margin-top:4px"><span style="background-color:rgb(0,255,255)">More?</span></li>
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2. (10 minutes) <strong>HAnimPose</strong> looks solid: fully working prototype, implemented in X_ITE, draft specification prose, Mantis
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<li>X3D Example Archives: Humanoid Animation, Poses, HAnim Pose Prototype</li>
<li><a href="https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/HumanoidAnimation/Poses/HAnimPosePrototypeIndex.html" target="_blank">https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/HumanoidAnimation/Poses/HAnimPosePrototypeIndex.html</a></li>
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<li>HAnim Architecture draft v2.1, clause 6 Object interfaces, 6.4 Pose</li>
<li><a href="https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4Draft/ISO-IEC19774/ISO-IEC19774-1/ISO-IEC19774-1v2.1/ISO-IEC19774-1v2.1-WD/Architecture/ObjectInterfaces.html#Pose" target="_blank">https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4Draft/ISO-IEC19774/ISO-IEC19774-1/ISO-IEC19774-1v2.1/ISO-IEC19774-1v2.1-WD/Architecture/ObjectInterfaces.html#Pose</a></li>
<li>X3D Architecture draft 4.1, clause 25 Humanoid animation, 26.3.5 HAnimPose</li>
<li><a href="https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4Draft/ISO-IEC19775-1v4.1-CD/Part01/components/hanim.html#HAnimMotion" target="_blank">https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4Draft/ISO-IEC19775-1v4.1-CD/Part01/components/hanim.html#HAnimMotion</a></li>
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<li>Mantis 1504: Consider Pose node (aka HAnimPose in X3D) to support inclusion of I, A, T, H, other poses within Humanoid</li>
<li><a href="https://mantis.web3d.org/view.php?id=1504" target="_blank">https://mantis.web3d.org/view.php?id=1504</a></li>
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Any concerns about including the proposed HAnimPose node in draft specifications HAnim v2.1 and X3D v4.1?
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The above example also demonstrates that X_ITE has added USE nopde-referencing capability. This refinement allows us to share and EXPORT existing humans, then IMPORT/AS/USE them. Big savings in file size, big benefit to make us ensure our shared models are excellent.
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<li>X3D Architecture draft 4.1, clause 4 Concepts, 4.4.6 EXPORT/IMPORT semantics</li>
<li><a href="https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4Draft/ISO-IEC19775-1v4.1-CD/Part01/concepts.html#ExportImportSemantics" target="_blank">https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4Draft/ISO-IEC19775-1v4.1-CD/Part01/concepts.html#ExportImportSemantics</a></li>
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3. (15 minutes) Lots of excellent progress on <strong>HAnimMotion</strong> with much excellent dialog shared on mailing list.
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X3D specification example restored:
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<li>X3D Example Archives: Humanoid Animation, Specifications, Korean Character Motion Annex D 01 Jin</li>
<li><a href="https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/HumanoidAnimation/Specifications/KoreanCharacterMotionAnnexD01JinIndex.html" target="_blank">https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/HumanoidAnimation/Specifications/KoreanCharacterMotionAnnexD01JinIndex.html</a></li>
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<li>Rawkee progress by Aaron: "I successfully implemented HAnimMotion node export from Maya using RawKee."</li>
<li>You can see a video of the result running in Sunrize<br><a href="https://drive.google.com/file/d/1JBe6kO1UnbsXvfpMKfI-75DhpDdzng-L/view?usp=sharing" target="_blank">https://drive.google.com/file/d/1JBe6kO1UnbsXvfpMKfI-75DhpDdzng-L/view?usp=sharing</a></li>
<li>[x3d-public] Maya/RawKee first HAnimMotion export test</li>
<li><a href="https://web3d.org/pipermail/x3d-public_web3d.org/2025-October/022042.html" target="_blank">https://web3d.org/pipermail/x3d-public_web3d.org/2025-October/022042.html</a></li>
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Possible specification improvements for
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<li>HAnimMotion joints (jointNames) field, enabled field default TRUE</li>
<li>HAnimHumanoid motionsEnabled MFBool array, define semantics of empty field as equivalent to all TRUE</li>
<li>Mantis 1507: HAnimHumanoid.motionsEnabled field and HAnimMotion.enabled field</li>
<li><a href="https://mantis.web3d.org/view.php?id=1517" target="_blank">https://mantis.web3d.org/view.php?id=1517</a></li>
<li><a href="https://web3d.org/pipermail/x3d-public_web3d.org/2025-October/022044.html" target="_blank">https://web3d.org/pipermail/x3d-public_web3d.org/2025-October/022044.html</a></li>
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Any concerns or objections to these clarity-motivated improvements to HAnim and X3D draft specifications?
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4. (5 min) Upcoming briefing in <strong>Metaverse Standards Forum (MSF) Town Hall</strong>
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Please mark your calendars. Special thanks to Joe Williams for steady representation of HAnim in this forum.
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<li><strong>Characters Town Hall, November 19 @ 15:00 - 17:00 PST</strong></li>
<li>As we are studying the interoperability aspects of Character and Avatars delivery systems, it is important to maintain and develop an understanding of the evolving Character and Avatars landscape. To collect thoughts and discuss the future of Character and Avatars, the 3D Asset Interoperability Working Group at Metaverse Standards Forum is organizing an open cross-industry Town Hall.</li>
<li>Multiple character and avatar approaches will be briefed. Topics include</li>
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<li>Understanding Character and Avatars production related challenges,</li>
<li>Sharing information on the activities of various industry organizations</li>
<li>Identifying activities that we as an industry can do to enable a healthier Character and Avatars ecosystem</li>
<li>Overarching character and avatar standards</li>
<li>Translation frameworks for characters and avatars</li>
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Web3D Communications Team will discuss preparation and messaging for the presentation.
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5. (5 min) Myeong Won Lee, any possibility of sharing<strong> Suwon HAnim modeling software</strong>? It had an important role in the development of HAnimMotion and many examples.
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6. (5 min) <strong>Continuing review efforts</strong> and ondoing discussion:
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Carol McDonald has provided <a href="https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1cPZ57p7Ml9yhdKLNZMmuRgq30eWBypXA" target="_blank">proposed changes for HAnim 2.1</a> which (for human-body and humanoid definitions) are helping us align with <a href="https://standards.ieee.org/industry-connections/activities/3d-body-processing" target="_blank">IEEE 3D Body Processing (3DBP) standards group</a> and complementary white papers.
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Many of these comments have already fit into the main specifications as clarifications or better descriptions. Target for Carol's remaining comments will likely be the following annex:
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<li>HAnim Architecture draft v2.1, Annex E (informative) Guidelines for HAnim model design</li>
<li><a href="https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4Draft/ISO-IEC19774/ISO-IEC19774-1/ISO-IEC19774-1v2.1/ISO-IEC19774-1v2.1-WD/Architecture/Design.html" target="_blank">https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4Draft/ISO-IEC19774/ISO-IEC19774-1/ISO-IEC19774-1v2.1/ISO-IEC19774-1v2.1-WD/Architecture/Design.html</a></li>
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7. <strong>Get Involved with HAnim</strong>
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The Humanoid Animation (HAnim) working group is a Web3D member-only group. The above topics are open, public information.
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<li>Humanoid Animation (HAnim) Working Group</li>
<li>The HAnim Working group develops and demonstrates the Humanoid Animation (HAnim) International Standard. HAnim supports a wide variety of articulated figures, including anatomically correct human models, incorporating haptic and kinematic interfaces in order to enable sharable skeletons, bodies and animations.</li>
<li><a href="https://www.web3d.org/working-groups/hanim" target="_blank">https://www.web3d.org/working-groups/hanim</a></li>
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Consortium membership has value! Please check out <a href="https://www.web3d.org/membership" target="_blank">Member Benefits</a> and consider joining Web3D.
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Renewed activity and progress in HAnim is really exciting. Thanks to everyone engaged in this ongoing success story.
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Onward we go! Have fun with HAnim and X3D! 🧍👌
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<span style="font-family:monospace">all the best, Don</span>
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<span style="font-family:monospace">-- </span>
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<span style="font-family:monospace">X3D Graphics, Maritime Robotics, Distributed Simulation</span>
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<span style="font-family:monospace">Relative Motion Consulting <a href="https://RelativeMotion.info" rel="noopener" target="_blank">https://RelativeMotion.info</a></span>
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