[Korea-chapter] [kaist-nps] minutes from Web3D Korea chapter meeting, day 2

Don Brutzman brutzman at nps.edu
Mon Dec 7 18:46:06 PST 2009

Continuation from yesterday.


13.  We had a second productive meeting of the Web3D Korea chapter
in Seoul Korea during the morning of Tuesday 8 December.


         Dr. Myeong Won Lee, Suwon University, Chapter organizer
         Dr. Kwan-hee Yoo, Chungbuk National University
         JungSeop Jung, Chapter secretary, Korea Standards
                  Association (KSA)
         JinSang Hwang, PartDB Co., Ltd.
         Dr. Yong-Sang Cho, Korea Education and Research Information
                 Service (KERIS)
	Sang Won Ghyme, Senior Researcher, Electronics and Telecommunications
		Research Institute (ETRI)
         Dr. Don Brutzman, Naval Postgraduate School (NPS) and
                 member Web3D Consortium Board of Directors (BoD)

Minutes recorded by myself with periodic detailed review by the group.


14.  H-Anim.  Myeong-Won Lee presented her updated slideset for
H-Anim Motion Data capture.  Sang Won Ghyme collaborated on this
effort, ETRI has 2 motion capture systems (Motion Analysis for HTR
data and VICON for BVH data).  Good results, as before.

There is alternative proposal for recording and playing back motion data
in H-Anim scenes.
	NPS reference:  multiple examples
	good point of comparison
	not standard, just a proposal with implementation example

	can we please compare the two approaches?
	can we compare the two approaches to regular specification-compliant
		use of simple OrientationInterpolators, then list pros/cons?

We have an H-Anim working group + mailing list
	not much activity, but it does exist
	cochairs:  Keith Victor (Vivaty) and Joe Williams
	good place to post your examples

We should look at H-Anim working group charter and see if we can resume
worthwhile activity

BVH file format
	Most popular mocap data format
	Reference:  online?
	Licensing:  royalty free?  no license?  does it matter?
	Do any import/export converters exist for BVH?

For your example, is the BVH data always defined for the same body joints
or can the body joints vary?
	If always the same, then we will always have same mapping to HAnim
	If not always the same, then always need to define a unique mapping

Apparently naming and number of joints in BVH file can vary with each example.
So maybe we need to define a conversion mapping from an arbitrary BVH file to
whatever the X3D motion capture data nodes are.

Some other technical goals:
	- How effective is .x3db compression on mocap data?  This should be
		evaluated and documented online.
	- Should we consider some further compression algorithms for behavior
		interpolator smoothing and predictive filtering?  This might
		greatly reduce the size of recorded data
	- How to stream such data?  This is an important new application area
		that may enable good capabilities for X3D that are already
		common in other virtual-world technologies.  Sang Won has a
		streaming presentation from past meetings that will also be
		provided online.

In general there are three choices for new technology:
	- no change, multiple diverse ad hoc solutions
	- if there are common solutions, define a "best practice" and help
		make it easy with tool support
	- specify, implement, evaluate a specification change

Suggested path forward:
	- ask working group to resume looking at the behavior capture/playback
	- invite other people to participate
	- look for other possible formats of interest, especially pay attention
		to any licensing restrictions
	- probably discussion is private H-Anim working-group members only
	- consider holding a workshop at Web3D 2010, or Call for Contributions
		to ensure that we can evaluate all candidate technologies

Keith Victor has also proposed flexibility in H-Anim naming and structures.
We need to decide if these proposals must proceed one at a time, or
if they can proceed in parallel.  The main problem is that the working group
has been stalled for a long time... maybe if we can state the new goals
clearly, and decide on the order to pursue them, then new work might actually
be accomplished.  If we cannot show sufficient participation or consensus,
then these will simply remain as proposals and the H-Anim specification will
not change.

I think this kind of effort is probably long overdue, and a good candidate
for group work in 2010.  If the interested participants are in California
and Korea, then we might resume working group teleconferences in the afternoon
California time (morning Korea time) so that everyone can participate directly.

Working group public description:
	no charter found there - it should be online, but isn't  :(

Mailing list subscription

Mailing list archive is broken:
	last apparent entry was March 2009 :(

Len Daly: can you please restore the email archive?

Other working group problems:
	No charter found - this is required
		(if we don't have any goals, then we can't succeed)
	Working group member directory is completely unorganized
	Maybe if someone volunteered to fix H-Anim website, that would help?

Working groups that succeed follow these steps.  Working groups that are
not organized will fail or dissolve.


15.  E-Learning working group proposal by Yong-Sang Cho and Kwan-hee Yoo

There were many good ideas and discussion points from yesterday's
presentation.  Dr. Cho and Kwan-hee Yoo would like to propose that
we consider a new working group on E-Learning.

- support use of X3D within e-learning applications
- help with Web accessibility for people with impaired access
- help participants get funding support for effective work
- Participate with other related organizations:  IMS, W3C WAI,
- Produce a training course or other examples that can be
	further improved or repeated successfully
- Document and develop use cases and best practices for such work
- Existing capabilities in X3D already seems sufficient to proceed,
	no new technology seems to be needed at this point

Charter goals:

- if we can get a sufficient number of people involved, usually
a face-to-face meeting (or maybe a teleconference) can get the
goals precisely stated

Candidate working group cochairs, secretary:

- who might be interested?

Organization liaisons:

	IMS:       Yong-Sang Cho
	W3C WAI:   Don Brutzman
	ADL SCORM: ____

Next steps:

- Start a public wiki page to capture and discuss these points
- Schedule and publicize a teleconference/videoconference meeting
- Ask our Web3D Executive Director Anita Havele for her thoughts
	and contributions on how to best go forward
- A good organizing activity might be to prepare a Call for Participation
	and publicize it, so that the "critical mass" of sufficient people
	can join in order to achieve success together

This is different from many of our other technical working groups, and this
seems like it has the potential to be very energizing.


16.  Myeong Won Lee would like to propose a Mobile working group.

She has already planned to hold a study for mobile 3D applications.
- Study group workshop planned for SC24 meeting late June 2010
- Call for participation needs to be announced on Web3D home page
	(please work with Anita to do this)
- Other publicity is also recommended

I think that we should dedicate one of the X3D working group meetings
to discuss whether a separate Mobile working group is really needed.
It is possible that this could simply proceed as part of main X3D group.

Candidate goals:
- create a Mobile Profile, if needed
	(perhaps equal to Interactive Profile + Script and a few other nodes)
- Build exemplars
- Share implementation experiences
- Create special X3D Earth archive suitable for mobile use

Could we create a wiki page to begin capturing and organizing these ideas?

After one or two meetings, if all this is documented, it will probably be
clear whether a separate working group is needed.  Asking the online
community about this is a good way to assess people's interest and
potential involvement.


17.  New working groups.

The process is described at

A charter is important for each group.
Anita, can we confirm that each group has an active charter?

I believe Alan Hudson has our guidelines for "how to start a new
working group."  Not found... can we get those publicized on the
above website page?


18.  SIGGRAPH ASIA 2010 in Seoul Korea, 7-10 December 2010.

We discussed possible activities by Web3D Korea Chapter next year.

No website yet.  SIGGRAPH ASIA 2009 online at

Some initial ideas:
- Possible meeting opportunity for Web3D Korea Chapter, open to
	public, describing the group's many activities
- Booth on exhibition floor
- Can we get funding for Web3D Executive Director to attend
- Perhaps one or more tutorials?
- Perhaps a panel discussion?
- Perhaps a public X3D Showcase demonstration


all the best, Don
Don Brutzman  Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br           brutzman at nps.edu
Watkins 270   MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA  work +1.831.656.2149
X3D, virtual worlds, underwater robots, XMSF  http://web.nps.navy.mil/~brutzman

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