[X3D-Public] FYI: Minutes of October 20 2009 HTML5 WG.

John A. Stewart alex.stewart at crc.ca
Wed Oct 21 07:57:42 PDT 2009

What: 		Web3D HTML5 meeting October 20 2009
present: 		John Stewart, Joe Williams,Johannes Behr, Don Brutzman,  
Anita Havelle.

Web page: 	http://www.web3d.org/x3d/wiki/index.php/X3D_and_HTML5
Toll-free phone: 877 929 9843
Toll-fee phone: 1-210-301-4738
Passcode: 831186#	

Last weeks minutes were sent by Don Brutzman.

Don - finished the slidesets for the W3C meeting last week, did not  
email the html5 people yet.

ACTION: Don Brutzman to email and request time at the TPAC HTML5  
meeting to present our work.

Letter sent during our meeting:

Dear HTML5 colleagues:

Members of the Web3D Consortium have been working on integration of
Extensible 3D (X3D) Graphics standard with HTML5.  We have been
following HTML5 development for some time.  This effort is conducted
publicly and documented online at


We have prepared a summary list of goals and issues at


We hope to present these points at the upcoming face-to-face meeting at
TPAC.  The slideset summary and a demo can be completed in 10 minutes.
We are also happy to handle questions.  Our question for this group is:
what is HTML5 relationship to 3D graphics?

Until recently X3D was explicitly called out in the HTML5
editors draft recommendation, namely:


       13 Things that you can't do with this specification because
       they are better handled using other technologies that are
       further described herein

       13.2 Declarative 3D scenes
       Embedding 3D imagery into XHTML documents is the domain of X3D,
       or technologies based on X3D that are namespace-aware.

Since this paragraph is no longer in the HTML5 editors draft, we are
wondering what the groups' intention is regarding X3D and other 3D
graphics content in HTML5.

Three of our team will be there at TPAC:  John Stewart, Joe Williams  
and myself.
The fourth member Johannes Behr has produced a demonstration for the  
Javascript running inside Firefox and Webkit browser nightly builds,  
on top
of the WebGL layer, presenting X3D content inside HTML5 content via  
the DOM.
We think that this is a good summary of how 3D technologies can work  
with HTML5.

Please advise if we can get on the HTML5 agenda.  Thanks for  
considering the

all the best, Don

JohnS - Will put slides into presentation format (PowerPoint) and  
distribute for comment.

JohnS - WebKit will find the freewrl plugin for "X3D" embedded code,  
why can we not use a plugin? Flux seemed to gain access to DOM?

Joe - need connection with a DOM; Flux used a method within Internet  
Explorer that is not standard nor found in other browsers.

Johannes: have working example of the Javascript X3D browser; follow  
the instruction on the page:



Action Items:


Sept 15 2009:

1) ACTION: (Sept 15 2009) Don - we do not have a target namespace. In  
XML schema, ACTION - investigate whether name space declaration in x3d  
schema is satisfactory.

(Oct 1):
Progress: Got part way into that; not sure about a few things. Leave  

3) ACTION: (Sept 15 2009) populate examples (all)

(Oct 1):
Don - Johannes can we use one/some of your examples?? Just to show  
where we are thinking. Mixed namespace - can be an inline node, maybe  
with some shape with a text.

Don - keep the X3D small, so that focus is on showing integration.

(Oct 20): In progress; Johannes and his group are preparing samples as  
part of their coding work.

4) ACTION: (Oct 01 2009) Don - We will refresh the showcase DVD; will  
print 100 copies so people can send stuff to showcase by 23 October.

5) ACTION: (Sept 23 2009) Joe - look at making some X3D examples; we  
have some good examples on our main wiki page; if you can lay out svg  
examples, and make equivalent x3d specs.

(Oct 1 2009):
Don: eg, a simple "Hello World" example a natural progression from  
HTML - <Object> example, to embedded <X3D>

Don: Constructing coresponding examples in SVG and MAthML to hammer  
home that we are really doing the same thing.

6) ACTION: (Oct 01 2009) All: next week to work on presentation for  

Oct 5, JAS - post on x3d-public  mailing list.

Discussing bullets from goals.

We are considering three basic approaches that might show X3D inside  
an HTML page.

	• (External reference) HTML page includes an object element tag that  
refers to an .x3d scene, implemented via an X3D plugin. Data might be  
passed within the page using DOM events.
	• (XML in HTML) HTML page includes namespace-prefixed X3D source,  
presumably implemented via an X3D plugin or the browser itself. Again  
data might be passed within the page using DOM events.
	• (API access) HTML page includes some form of canvas (or maybe  
Canvas3D) element that allows programmatic access to the page, so that  
X3D Scene Access Interface (SAI) might draw a bitmap

7) ACTION : give info to anita so she can put something out on the  
web3d site.

8) ACTION: is WebGL specified on slideset properly? We have a Chronos  
representative; we can ask them.
(Oct 20) Anita Havelle wrote the following, and received a reply from  
Alan Hudson, October 14, 2009 5:03PM EST:

Anita Havele wrote:
Hi Alan.
I am not sure if you are aware that the X3D reference have been  
removed from
the HTML5 spec. This is very concerning to us. Don nor any of the other
Web3D HTML5 WG members know of any discussions that would cause them  
to do
this.  The Web3D HTML5 working group is planning to present at the W3C  
TPAC meeting
in Santa Clara 4, 5,  and 6 of November. The
will summarize  the strengths of X3D for HTML5 along with X3D and HTML5
examples. The presentation also discusses similarities of X3D with other
technologies. We are looking for some insight from you as a KHRONOS  
and Web3DC President whether it would be acceptable for us to discuss
COLLADA in this presentation especially due to our liaison agreement  
is very specific to the CAD component). More specifically would it be
accurate to state "COLLADA also a XML based interchange format does not
support deployment (runtime) on the Web like X3D does"
I think that would be fine.


9) ACTION: (Oct 20 2009) Don Brutzman to email and request time at the  
TPAC HTML5 meeting to present our work.

10) ACTION: (Oct 20 2009) JohnS to Powerpoint slides for TPAC meeting.

John A. Stewart
Team Leader: Networked Virtual Reality
alex.stewart at crc.ca

Network Systems and Technologies -
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