[X3D-Public] multiuser mode (newbie question)

Sun May 2 12:17:38 PDT 2010

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From: Russ Kinter [mailto:pyth7 at verizon.net] 
Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2010 3:03 PM
To: 'Christoph Valentin'
Subject: RE: RE: [X3D-Public] multiuser mode (newbie question)

  _____  

From: Christoph Valentin [mailto:christoph.valentin at gmx.at] 
Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2010 5:51 AM
To: Russ Kinter
Cc: x3d-public at web3d.org
Subject: Re: RE: [X3D-Public] multiuser mode (newbie question)

And as long as the customers (i.e. content authors) do not insist in a standardized protocol, there won't be a standardized protocol.
 [Russ Kinter]  “The customers” shouldn’t have had to “insist” on anything, because it IS an “open-source standard”.
“The customers” put their trust in a Web3D.org committee composed of members from “commercial companies”  to do the right thing.

Just out of curiosity were the content authors even asked about the protocol?
How do content authors “insist” if they don’t know what is going on?

it's that easy, imho.
[Russ Kinter] yeah, nothin’ like the “easy” way out imho.
-------- Original-Nachricht --------
Datum: Sun, 02 May 2010 02:05:20 -0400
Von: "Russ Kinter" <pyth7 at verizon.net>
An: "'Christoph Valentin'" <christoph.valentin at gmx.at>
CC: "'X3D Graphics public mailing list'" <x3d-public at web3d.org>
Betreff: RE: [X3D-Public] multiuser mode (newbie question)

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From: Christoph Valentin [mailto:christoph.valentin at gmx.at] <http://service.gmx.net/de/cgi/g.fcgi/mail/new?CUSTOMERNO=28383878&t=de1453266715.1272793061.226bd6b1&to=christoph.valentin%40gmx.at>  
Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2010 6:37 AM
To: pyth7 at verizon.net <http://service.gmx.net/de/cgi/g.fcgi/mail/new?CUSTOMERNO=28383878&t=de1453266715.1272793061.226bd6b1&to=pyth7%40verizon.net> 
Cc: X3D-Public at web3d.org <http://service.gmx.net/de/cgi/g.fcgi/mail/new?CUSTOMERNO=28383878&t=de1453266715.1272793061.226bd6b1&to=X3D-Public%40web3d.org> 
Subject: Re: [X3D-Public] multiuser mode (newbie question)

> As far as MU goes, SAI/EAI holds the most promise for low cost 

> (i.e. Free as in free client AND server) 

Unfortunately, I like the Network Sensor concept (due to its generality), and don't forget: 

* An X3D viewer is not required to support Java (either Internal in a Script node or external) 

* An X3D viewer is required to support ECMAScript in the Script node - if the viewer supports the Script node
* An X3D viewer is not required to support external SAI with ECMAScript
(I copied these sentences from another forum, Author: Leonard Daly)

When I use network sensors, it's possible to implement rather complex MU animations/simulations just using ECMAScript, without being dependent on the SAI/EAI. 

[Russ Kinter]  It’s called cascading. 

One event from the network has the capability of triggering many animations.. 

EAI when it is done properly is exactly the same way. 

You instance a NetworkSensor Node and I instance a proto that is acquired by the Java. In both our cases it is the ECMA script that does most of the work in terms of animations. 

You are dependent on the X3D browser implementing NetworkSensor Node to communicate to the server and I am dependent on a Java Socket and thread. We are both dependent on some extra feature to talk to the network. 

The difference is with EAI can do far more - I can communicate with other Java programs. 

For example since Instant Player won’t play mp3 files I found an open-source Java program that can and after writing a faux-Sound Node I can play mp3 and other audio formats not supported by any X3D browser in a world. 

As far as the “mandatory” issue goes, I don’t think the NetworkSensor is mandatory either at least when I search 

http://www.instantreality.org/documentation/nodetype/ 

it can’t be found. So I suggest both means of talking to the network are optional. 

Don’t get me wrong the NetworkSensor Node is -or rather- was a great idea until its protocol was allowed to be made proprietary. God forbid profits should be missed out on because some amateurs could possibly write an MU system using the NetworkSensor Node. For me the whole proprietary protocol issue makes a sham out of claims of the spec being open-source. 

Riddle me this: What is part of an open-source spec but isn’t itself open-source? 

Russ Kinter 

-------- Original-Nachricht --------
Datum: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 19:10:05 -0500 (CDT)
Von: pyth7 at verizon.net <http://service.gmx.net/de/cgi/g.fcgi/mail/new?CUSTOMERNO=28383878&t=de1453266715.1272793061.226bd6b1&to=pyth7%40verizon.net> 
An: christoph.valentin at gmx.at <http://service.gmx.net/de/cgi/g.fcgi/mail/new?CUSTOMERNO=28383878&t=de1453266715.1272793061.226bd6b1&to=christoph.valentin%40gmx.at> 
CC: X3D-Public at web3d.org <http://service.gmx.net/de/cgi/g.fcgi/mail/new?CUSTOMERNO=28383878&t=de1453266715.1272793061.226bd6b1&to=X3D-Public%40web3d.org> 
Betreff: Re: [X3D-Public] multiuser mode (newbie question) 

>is there something else in the standard, that can be used for multiuser mode (besides SAI/EAI)? 

To the best of my knowledge no -not as a standard per se. 

However some people have done interesting MU stuff with php: 

http://www.x-robot.com/
http://3dchat.3d-check.com/ 

Paul Aslin has something similar as well -it may be the 3dchat link. 

As far as MU goes, SAI/EAI holds the most promise for low cost 

(i.e. Free as in free client AND server) 

Russ Kinter 

Apr 30, 2010 04:23:34 PM, christoph.valentin at gmx.at <http://service.gmx.net/de/cgi/g.fcgi/mail/new?CUSTOMERNO=28383878&t=de537344352.1272709485.54f3f8ca&to=christoph.valentin%40gmx.at>  wrote: 

Dear all

I did some private (hobby) studies regarding multiuser mode and rather complex scenes (combining content from different authors) and would like to ask, if you could second my experiences,

or if somebody disagrees (the whole project is documented at http://simulrr.wordpress.com).

See below

I am aware of Network Sensor and DIS, is there something else in the standard, that can be used for multiuser mode (besides SAI/EAI)?

Thanks in advance
Christoph 

BS Contact 

Supported from the beginning of the project. Multi-user-mode with and BS Collaborate definitively possible. 

Octaga 

Supported from spring 2009 onwards. Multi-user-mode with theoretically possible, but no free test version of collaboration server available -> multi-user-mode cannot be supported currently. 

Instant Reality 

First trials positive. Yet unknown, whether Network Sensor node is supported or not. According to X3D-public mailing list an open source multi-user-framework exists (to be analysed). 

Free WRL 

First trials show, that is not supported → postponed. 

Xj3D 

First trials show, that Xj3D has problems with nested prototypes → postponed. 

Vivaty 

Not available AFAIK 

SwirlX3D 

First trials not un-positive, but show up problems with viewpoints in prototypes, proximity sensors in prototypes etc. → postponed 

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