[x3d-public] GeoPlanets, was: Invalid geoSystem values in X3D Resources BasicGeospatial examples.
Andreas Plesch
andreasplesch at gmail.com
Sun May 13 12:50:00 PDT 2018
Hi Doug,
here is my unfinished response to your earlier posting:
there may be planetary geoSystems or spatial reference frames proposed
in the enhanced geospatial component proposal.
http://www.igraphics.com/Standards/EnhancedGeospatialComponent_2007_10_30/Part01/components/geodata.html
http://www.sedris.org/wg8home/Documents/18026_FDIS/C030811e_FILES/MAIN_C030811e/ISOIEC_18026E_TOC.HTM
But a more streamlined proposal seems very useful.
I think geospatial nodes can only deal with scenes on a single planet
since the underlying assumption is that in the scene regular (nongeo)
coordinates are geocentric, eg. relative to the center of a single
planet. Your proposal seems to address somewhat that question. I think
regular coordinates within a GeoPlanet node would be geocentric only
to that planet. In a multiplanet scene it would be necessary to also
specify the positions of the planets relative to each other.
An expansion may be a solarcentric mode, where the center of a solar
system is the origin. Each planet would have its center given relative
to a central sun (ignoring precision issues for the moment). I think
astronomy also uses galactic coordinates.
And here additional feedback:
3TM and 10UTM seems to be only used in Canada ? 3TM seems to have
meridians based on province ? If we allow additional projections, they
should be truly global and well defined. I do not see it as a big
burden to convert to GD or UTM. The other route to is allow all epsg
codes which can be converted by a library such proj which means
essentially all possible projections.
GeoPositionInterpolator converts to GC but there is no way to convert
to UTM or GD which may be useful for reporting coordinates.
relativeHeight: sounds interesting. Why use the highest point on the
GEG and not the height at the actual location ? What if the registered
GEG is somewhere else than the GL ? Just fall back to
Geoid,eg.sealevel ?
-Andreas
> Date: Sun, 13 May 2018 12:10:21 -0600
> From: GPU Group <gpugroup at gmail.com>
> To: X3D Graphics public mailing list <x3d-public at web3d.org>
> Subject: Re: [x3d-public] Invalid geoSystem values in X3D Resources
> BasicGeospatial examples.
> Message-ID:
> <CAM2ogRfXeWAaqvS9WvLRrYUoGXMNHb1NWyR7+aFDTos_-mp3zg at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> John, thanks for checking.
> Hypothesis: Maybe I forgot to check the [x] public checkbox when making a
> spec comment? I meant for it to be public, And I hope the recommendations
> are adopted in some future version of the specs, and implemented by browser
> developers.
> I'll make it public here and do another submission.
> -Doug
> Here's what I submitted Mar 26, 2018
>
> ==============================================================
>
> GeoSpatial Component Comments Mar 2018
>
>
>
> Acronyms:
>
> GL - GeoLocation
>
> GVP - GeoViewpoint
>
> GEG - GeoElevationGrid
>
> GPS - GeoProximitySensor
>
> GP - GeoPlanet
>
> XTM - UTM or 3TM
>
> 3TM - like UTM, except 3 degree zones, .9999 scale factor and no false
> northing / false easting
>
> user coords - coords matching geosystem, authored in scene file, could be
> GC, XTM, GD
>
> TCS/LGS - Topocentric Coordinate System aka Local Geodetic System, as
> described in specs for GeoLocation:
>
> -- tangent to ellipsoid at a given geo location, -Z north, Y up
>
> LCS - Local Coordinate System - as described in specs for numerical
> precision
>
> -- shared cartesian coordinate system used internally
>
>
>
> A. Proposed nodetype: GeoPlanet
>
> Implicit in the web3d geospatial specs: all geoNodes are on the same
> planet.: earth That should cover 99.99999% of uses. And even if you have 2
> planets, the transform stack will keep them separate for most use cases. The
> exception being node-node interactions such as GVP-GEG, GL-GEG, and
> GPS-GEG as I'll explain later for the relativeHeight feature.
>
> x3d usage:
>
> <GeoPlanet planetId='#'>
>
> ... geonodes for planet...
>
> </GeoPlanet>
>
> where
>
> planetId - an Int32 field that can be used to discriminate between planets,
> could also be called planetName or planet
>
> example scenefile:
>
> http://dug9.users.sourceforge.net/web3d/tests/geo/World/earthriseGP.x3d
>
> http://dug9.users.sourceforge.net/web3d/temp/freeWRL2018_GeoPlanet.mp4
> feature details:
>
> 1. similar to GeoTransform (GT) it wraps geonodes, but instead of
> converting to TCS/LGS it converts to GC
> - allows orbital mechanics on multiple planets using planet centers and Z
> as rotation axis
>
> - same job could in theory be done by modifying the specs for GeoTransform,
> to allow converting to GC instead of TCS/LGS, and a field for planetId, but
> adds a connundrum: 2 geoTransforms for the same planet could sport
> different translation, rotation etc, which doesn't make sense.
> 2. for node-node interactions such as GVP-GEG and GL-GEG helps keep the
> planets separate
>
> - internally planetId is pushed and popped during scenegraph traversal, so
> when visiting a the code can tell which planet it's working on
>
> a) for GVP-GEG:
>
> -- when visiting GVP to start the modelview matrix, store the planetId in
> the GVP
>
> -- when visiting GEG, check the current planetId (applies to GEG) against
> the GVP._planetId, use if same
>
> b) for GL-GEG:
>
> -- after loading scene/inline/externProto body, on first traveral add each
> GEG to a per-planet list of GEGs
>
> -- when visiting a GL with relativeHeight TRUE, look through the current
> planet's list of GEGs, and get the highest terrain height, if any GEGs
> covering that location.
>
>
>
> GeoPlanet : X3DGroupingNode {
> SFInt32 [] planetId 0 [0,?)
> SFNode [in,out] metadata NULL [X3DMetadataObject]
> MFNode [in] addChildren [X3DChildNode]
> MFNode [in] removeChildren [X3DChildNode]
> MFNode [in,out] children [] [X3DChildNode]
> SFVec3f [] bboxCenter 0 0 0 (-?,?)
> SFVec3f [] bboxSize -1 -1 -1 [0,?) or ?1 ?1 ?1
> }
>
>
>
> B. Proposed nodetype: GeoConvert
>
> Web3d specs allow a different geoSystem on each geo node. And each as
> fields in user/geoSystem coordinates that can be routed to/from. But no way
> to convert between geoSystems.
>
> Proposed GeoConvert node
>
> - allows you to convert between GeoSystems via routing and 2 GeoConvert
> nodes
> myGeoNode1 -> set_geoCoord (geoConvert1) gcCoord_changed -> set_gcCoord
> (geoConvert2) geoCoord_changed -> myGeoNode2
> where geoConvert1.geoSystem == myGeoNode1.geoSystem
> and geoConvert2.geoSystem == myGeoNode2.geoSystem
> http://dug9.users.sourceforge.net/web3d/tests/geo/World/World33geoConvert.x3d
>
>
> GeoConvert : X3DNode {
> SFVec3d [in] set_geoCoords
> SFVec3d [in] set_gcCoords
> SFNode [in,out] metadata NULL [X3DMetadataObject]
> MFString [] geoSystem ["GD","WE"] [see 25.2.3]
> SFVec3d [out] geoCoords_changed
> SFVec3d [out] gcCoords_changed
> }
>
>
> C. Proposed field for GVP, GL and GPS: .relativeHeight
>
> Sometimes you don't know the exact height of something above the ellipsoid,
> but you know you want it at ground level, and you have a GEG in the scene
> covering the area. It would be convenient to put 0 for the geoCoords/center
> height, if they are GD or XTM user coords (not GC), and have the browser
> adjust the height to terrain level.
>
> For GL and GPS if relativeHeight = TRUE, then on each frame when visiting
> the node, check the list of GEGs registered for the current GeoPlanet, and
> add the highest of those (if any) to the .geoCoords / .center height if in
> GD or XTM, to convert from user to internal GC, and subtract if going from
> GC back to user.
>
> For GVP, the behaviour is similar, but only for initial positioning,
> because browser-supported navigation modes likely want to adjust the
> relative height:
>
> - WALK + Collide: maintain relative height to terrain, by climbing/falling
> while navigating on GEG
>
> - FLY + Collide: maintain height relative to ellipsoid
>
> - FLY (no collide aka FREEFLY): allow height to be adjusted
>
>
>
> Example scene (GVP and GL):
>
> http://dug9.users.sourceforge.net/web3d/temp/freeWRL2018_relativeHeights.mp4
>
> http://dug9.users.sourceforge.net/web3d/tests/geo/World/World33GLrelativeHeight.x3d
>
>
>
> Field descriptions:
>
>
>
> GeoLocation : X3DGroupingNode {
> .. as per specs ..
> SFBool [] relativeHeight FALSE
> }
>
>
> GeoViewpoint : X3DViewpointNode {
> .. as per specs ..
> SFBool [] relativeHeight FALSE
> }
>
>
> GeoProximitySensor : X3DEnvironmentalSensorNode {
> .. as per specs ..
> SFBool [] relativeHeight FALSE
> }
>
>
>
> D. Proposed geoSystem additions
>
> http://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19775-1/V3.3/Part01/components/geodata.html#Spatialreferenceframes
>
>
>
> D1. A, IF, F, R
>
> An assumption of the specs: all geoNodes are for one planet: earth, and the
> list of allowed ellipsoids are for earth.
>
> Online samples include a Mars scene, and it uses default earth ellipsoid:
>
> http://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/Basic/#Geospatial
>
> Here are some additions to geoSystem to allow users to specify the
> ellipsoid parameters:
>
> # - a number like a 6378137 or 298.257223563
>
> "A#" - semimajor axis
>
> "IF#" - inverse flattening
>
> "F#" - flattening
>
> "R" - radius
>
> coherent combinations include:
>
> A and F
>
> A and IF
>
> R
>
>
>
> D2. 3TM
>
> 3TM is like UTM, except with (built-in) central meridan scale factor .9999
> (instead of .9997 for UTM) and no false easting or false northing (so
> coordinates can be negative). Typically used for cities, and GIS packages
> export 3TM often without mentioning the zone or central meridian. In that
> case you can set Z0. Otherwise its generally 2x the UTM zone or 2x- 1.
>
> coherent combinations include
>
> 3TM
>
> 3TM and Z
>
> along with other UTM-compatible options except no FalseEasting or
> FalseNorthing.
>
>
>
> ================================================================
>
> and April 9, 2018 addendum:
>
> ======================================
>
> (refering to a previous spec submission from the same commentor which
> included new nodetype GeoPlanet)
>
> GeoPlanet - there's a preference among freewrl users that instead of
> numerical planetId='#' it would be an SFString ie planet='earth', which
> would be easier for scene authors to keep straight in their own minds.
>
> SFString planet "earth"
>
> ========================================
>
>
>
> On Sun, May 13, 2018 at 10:58 AM, John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> You may want to resubmit your 3TM and Planet changes to Mantis. I
>> searched for 3TM and Planet in Mantis (All Projects) and got nothing
>> significant back.
>>
>>
>>
>> However, I was denied access to:
>>
>>
>>
>> http://www.web3d.org/node/1694/submission/1671
>>
>>
>>
>> Why?
>>
>>
>>
>> and there?s:
>>
>>
>>
>> http://www.web3d.org/member-only/mantis/view.php?id=1215
>>
>>
>>
>> Not that I want to imagine writing schema for such a thing?that?s why I
>> hope to get geoSystem into more reasonable shape in the Unified Object
>> Model (we need volunteers, I think) before trying to do it in schema.
>>
>>
>>
>> John
>>
>>
>>
>> Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for
>> Windows 10
>>
>>
>>
>> *From: *GPU Group <gpugroup at gmail.com>
>> *Sent: *Sunday, May 13, 2018 9:16 AM
>> *To: *X3D Graphics public mailing list <x3d-public at web3d.org>
>> *Subject: *Re: [x3d-public] Invalid geoSystem values in X3D Resources
>> BasicGeospatial examples.
>>
>>
>>
>> I think N should be OK, just as you say a redundant default.. I proposed
>> several new things in the geoSystem field, submitted to spec comments a few
>> months ago, so I hope your processor works on the new things if ever
>> adopted.
>>
>> -Doug
>>
>> R,A,B,F,IF - ways to drectly specifiy the shape of the ellipsoid so other
>> planet shapes and sizes could be modeled
>>
>> 3TM - similar to UTM (except 3degree zones, no false northing or easting,
>> different central meridian scale factor .9999)
>>
>> ...
>>
>> I also proposed a Planet node - allows multiple planets in one scene
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, May 13, 2018 at 6:14 AM, John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> The object model is expressive enough to list conforming values, yet
>> accept others, but as far as I know (I may be wrong here), it is not
>> expressive enough to express supported geoSystem values. This is a
>> problem. How do we resolve it, and should we, if we are accepting other
>> values? Is it resolved in X3DJSAIL? Should I get rid of Roy's JSON
>> subschema for geoSystem?
>>
>>
>>
>> John
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, May 13, 2018, 7:43 AM John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I believe the purpose of schema is to support minimally acceptable files.
>> It should flag files which are questionable. If a file can be brought
>> into conformance easily, shouldn't it be?
>>
>>
>>
>> Yes, you should be able to ignore the results of the schema
>> validation...at your own risk.
>>
>>
>>
>> What is the purpose of the X3D resources examples, but to show a good
>> example practice? Or are we testing tools to make sure certain values are
>> acceptable? If that's the case, then the schema should be updated for ALL
>> versions.
>>
>>
>>
>> John
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, May 13, 2018, 7:31 AM John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Then the version of the document should be upgraded to 4.0 or above, and
>> the corresponding schema updated. I can upgrade the schema for all
>> versions, since it is hard coded into the schema generator. But really we
>> need support from the object model if possible. Right now, I have to
>> explicitly allow it for all versions, since I use stdin/stdout instead of
>> files. Does the unified object model specify a version # in its contents?
>> When the unified object model supports "N" in a usable fashion, then I can
>> code something into the schema, or delete the requirement to check
>> geoSystem.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks, away from computer presently, or I would check.
>>
>>
>>
>> I don't see why Roy went to all the effort to create a schema, if we are
>> going to ignore it?
>>
>>
>>
>> This applies in many areas...if we merely have supported values, yet
>> others must be accepted, why is there a standard?
>>
>>
>>
>> I don't believe it's ambiguous in this case of X3D. A missing "N" means
>> Northern Hemisphere.
>>
>>
>>
>> John
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, May 13, 2018, 12:46 AM Andreas Plesch <andreasplesch at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> http://www.web3d.org/specifications/19775-1/V3.2/
>> Part01/components/geodata.html#Specifyingaspatialreference
>> <http://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19775-1/V3.2/Part01/components/geodata.html#Specifyingaspatialreference>
>>
>>
>>
>> lists the supported strings for the geoSystem MFString field.
>>
>>
>>
>> The prose choosing 'supported' over 'legal' or 'conforming' could be taken
>> to mean that other than listed strings may be allowed to be supported as
>> well by some browsers.
>>
>>
>>
>> However, previous discussions indicate that schemas are not sufficiently
>> expressive to describe unknown but conforming string values.
>>
>>
>>
>> One resolution was to explicitly allow 'N' in upcoming X3D version, and
>> perhaps silently allow it for 3.3.
>>
>>
>>
>> Outside of X3D UTM zones often have the N hemisphere identifier to avoid
>> ambiguity.
>>
>>
>>
>> Andreas
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Date: Sat, 12 May 2018 19:54:17 -0400
>> From: John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com>
>> To: Don Brutzman <brutzman at nps.edu>, X3D Graphics public mailing list
>> <x3d-public at web3d.org>
>> Subject: [x3d-public] Invalid geoSystem values in X3D Resources Basic
>> Geospatial examples.
>> Message-ID: <5af77ea8.1c69fb81.7da1f.13e3 at mx.google.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>
>> Don, These files contain "N" in geoSystem, which I believe is not valid,
>> and should be removed (default is Northern Hemisphere, in the standard, I
>> believe. "S" can be specified?not in this case).
>>
>> Is there a tool which hasn?t been changed which is
>>
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>>
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Andreas Plesch
Waltham, MA 02453
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