[x3d-public] both X3DOM and X_ITE.

Tue May 29 03:45:46 PDT 2018

By the way, Joe, my next website will be
hyperchaostochastiquantumultimedia.com.

Lol.

John

On Mon, May 28, 2018, 7:27 PM Joseph D Williams <joedwil at earthlink.net>
wrote:

> Real fine, Andreas. Nancy is a ‘simple’ humanoid where simple means that
> geometry is child of segment which gets driven by joint. When the joint
> moves a segment, then the geometry moves as expected. Simple means the
> basic hierarchy but no continuous-mesh skin.
>
>
>
> As you can see from the protos, nothing special about x3d is required
> because x3d is already so special – that is unless you wanna get some real
> skin in the game.
>
>
>
> Yes, there is no script required to do that ‘simple’ character, and the
> protos do not require any scripting.
>
> The Nancy scripts are derived from the protos given in HAnim Part 1 Annex
> A examples (VRML at this moment, but easy to figure out). So for a basic
> humanoid there is nothing really new except the names of the various
> humanoid skeleton and skin objects. Even the animations are completely
> standard interpolators. Again, the only tough part is getting the skin to
> work.
>
>
>
> Also please notice in the spec where it is possible to create the
> continuous-mesh skin from selected vertices of geometry that is part of a
> segment. That is a possible way to leverage from geometries of the segments
> to a full continuous-mesh surface.
>
>
>
> A collection is here:
>
>
>
>
> http://hypermultimedia.com/x3d/hanim/HAnimCollection20130818/0MainStageScene0818.x3dv
>
>
>
>
> http://hypermultimedia.com/x3d/hanim/HAnimCollection20130818/HAnimCollection20130818.zip
>
>
>
> http://www.hypermultimedia.com/x3d/JoeX3D/JoeX3D.htm
>
>
>
> some other pieces:
>
>
>
> http://www.hypermultimedia.com/x3d/JoeX3D/JoeX3D.htm
>
>
>
> Thanks and Best,
>
> Joe
>
> http://hypermultimedia.com/acontents.htm
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *Andreas Plesch <andreasplesch at gmail.com>
> *Sent: *Monday, May 28, 2018 3:28 PM
> *To: *Joseph D Williams <joedwil at earthlink.net>
> *Cc: *John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com>; x3dom mlist
> <x3dom-users at lists.sourceforge.net>; X3D Graphics public mailing list
> <x3d-public at web3d.org>
> *Subject: *Re: both X3DOM and X_ITE.
>
>
>
> A quick follow up:
>
>
>
>
> http://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/Basic/HumanoidAnimation/NancyDivingProtoInstancesIndex.html
>
>
>
> seems to be a good example for proto-based HAnim.
>
>
>
> It works in x_ite and perhaps is expandable.
>
>
>
> The scripts do not seem to part of the proto's ? If not, perhaps it is
>
> possible to simplify and take those out ?
>
>
>
> -Andreas
>
>
>
> On Mon, May 28, 2018 at 6:09 PM, Andreas Plesch <andreasplesch at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > On Mon, May 28, 2018 at 4:24 PM, Joseph D Williams
>
> > <joedwil at earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> >>
>
> >> From: Andreas Plesch
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>> There just does not seem a lot of demand or requests by users or
>
> >>> customers. Of course, this may be a chicken and egg problem.
>
> >>
>
> >> And, that if you hae soething that works, like contact and instant,
> maybe
>
> >> you don’t need to complain.
>
> >>
>
> > Or on the web look for other,widely available technologies.
>
> >>
>
> >>> Contributions to x3dom or x_ite are always welcome, in any case.
>
> >>
>
> >> Great a contribution to either is a contribution to X3D.
>
> >>
>
> > Well said.
>
> >>
>
> >>> For x3dom, my interest would be probably the glTF angle. glTF has
>
> >>> character animation. Here is an example:
>
> >>>
>
> >>>
> https://www.donmccurdy.com/2017/11/06/creating-animated-gltf-characters-with-mixamo-and-blender/
> >
>
> >>
>
> >> Great, I will look. The basic x3d hanim skeleton, bindings, animations,
> and
>
> >> geometries can be stored in gltf. I hope I can look back in the hanim
>
> >> archives to see a comparison I did. No doubt gltf can transport the good
>
> >> stuff with the only problem that gltf uses unit quats instead of
> axis-angle.
>
> >>
>
> > x3dom uses quats internally anyways, I think rotation field values are
>
> > immediately converted at parsing.
>
> >>
>
> >>> The best explanation, apart from studying glTF loaders, is apparently
>
> >>> in this figure, sorry about that:
>
> >>>
>
> >>>
> https://raw.githubusercontent.com/KhronosGroup/glTF/master/specification/2.0/figures/gltfOverview-2.0.0a.png
>
> >>
>
> >> OK, I will look for more recent info, but I don’t think anything in
> this has
>
> >> changed. Structure and data – names may be different but the data and
> its
>
> >> application is the same. Now I know there may be some new tech but for
> the
>
> >> basics stuf, not much has changed in the last 20 years since hanim was
>
> >> specified.
>
> >
>
> > The glTF spec. itself, I think, refers to the figure to explain meaning.
>
> >
>
> >>> translation of a simple glTF character to an HAnim humanoid would be a
>
> >>> good first step.
>
> >>
>
> >> A better first step would be to transcode an HAnim humanoid into gltf
> and
>
> >> back again. From what I saw it would work. After all, it is all the same
>
> >> structure and same data. I was going to work on the Boxman and the
> JoeKick
>
> >> models in the x3d hanim example archives.
>
> >
>
> > Well, these are two steps. The simplest rigged skining glTF example
> seems to be:
>
> >
>
> >
> https://github.com/KhronosGroup/glTF-Sample-Models/tree/master/2.0/RiggedSimple
>
> >
>
> >>
>
> >>> A functional, minimal subset of HAnim of nodes and/or a Proto-based
>
> >>> implementation of the nodes would also help implementers.
>
> >>
>
> >> Of course we have the proto-based nodes for HAnim where the geometries
> are
>
> >> children of Segments (bones) and we animate the skeleton. A prototype
> for
>
> >> seamless skin animation is Boxman in x3d hanim archives - it needs a
> fancy
>
> >> script to move skin. Since there are no other features of x3d that
>
> >> approximate the way skin is animated, there are no scriptless
> prototypes.
>
> >
>
> > Ok: Here is the link:
>
> >
> http://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/Basic/HumanoidAnimation/HAnimPrototypesIndex.html
>
> >
>
> > But I do not see scripts ?
>
> >
>
> > Will there be an proto update for the new version of HAnim ?
>
> >
>
> >>> A main challenge will be probably the requirement to have vertex
>
> >>> geometry manipulation in a shader on the GPU. This is done only for
>
> >>> displacement textures of a CommonSurfaceShader node currently in
>
> >>> x3dom.
>
> >
>
> >> Yes, we need to control individual ‘skin’ vertices according to a simple
>
> >> weighting algorithm depending upon rotation of one or more joints. That
> has
>
> >> been a problem, yet it is so basic, that and morph shape, that we should
>
> >> have both features outside the Humanoid container.
>
> >
>
> > Yes, morphing seems generally useful. I think glTF may use weighted
>
> > matrices but not sure.
>
> >
>
> >> If anyone wants to learn character animation, anything you learn about
> x3d
>
> >> hanim will not be a waste of time. X3d hanim still documents an industry
>
> >> standard approach where inputs were taken from all major toolmakers
> because
>
> >> strangely, even back in the late 1990’s there was great input from
> users to
>
> >> the biggies that they had to allow data to be exported and transported
>
> >> between applications. Only the names were changed to prevent favoritism
> and
>
> >> preserve innocence – ooh, and to bring the secretive data structures and
>
> >> bindings out into the open.
>
> >
>
> > Ok. I will say that the HAnim prototypes which do not need scripts
>
> > should be possible, even straightforward to port to x3dom and probably
>
> > x_ite native nodes. John's protoexpander probably already could deal
>
> > with those. So the main challenge probably really is the GPU based
>
> > vertex displacing.
>
> >
>
> > Is there any use in having the Grouping/Transform type HAnim nodes only ?
>
> >
>
> > Best, -Andreas
>
> >
>
> >>
>
> >> On Mon, May 28, 2018 at 10:42 AM, Joseph D Williams
>
> >>
>
> >> <joedwil at earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> >>
>
> >>>> both X3DOM and X_ITE …
>
> >>
>
> >>> The discussions about both X3DOM and X_ITE are, to me, missing a very
>
> >>> important feature. Neither of these tools can do HAnim skeleton
> controlled
>
> >>> deformable skin. This is a very important feature, lending itself to
> many
>
> >>> important applications in addition to HAnim. There have been several
>
> >>> discussions about the hanim joint(s) to deformable skin bindings and as
>
> >>> far
>
> >>> as I have seen, there is no doubt that the way x3d specifies the basic,
>
> >>> most
>
> >>> simple, and most transportable technique to achieve the result. So, as
> the
>
> >>> HAnim standard takes the next step, why not move a bit toward
> implementing
>
> >>> this important capability in your browsers. BSContact does it, I think
>
> >>> Instant does it mostly but x3dom and x_ite don’t.
>
> >>> Thanks and Best,
>
> >>
>
> >>>
>
> >>
>
> >>> Joe
>
> >>
>
> >>>
>
> >>
>
> >>>
>
> >>
>
> >>>
>
> >>
>
> >>>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >> --
>
> >>
>
> >> Andreas Plesch
>
> >>
>
> >> Waltham, MA 02453
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > --
>
> > Andreas Plesch
>
> > Waltham, MA 02453
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Andreas Plesch
>
> Waltham, MA 02453
>
>
>
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