[x3d-public] x3d-public Digest, Vol 118, Issue 16: X3D contributions and progress
Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV)
brutzman at nps.edu
Sun Jan 13 20:01:59 PST 2019
[modified subject line, hoping this isn't lost...]
Thanks for the inquiries and contributions as always.
Doug, your implementation efforts and suggestions are always given close attention. Am counting on you to holler if we're overlooking everything as we go forward. Anything that has slipped off of the priority list, let's refresh... Mantis is where we keep collected status, in addition to mailing list archives.
Albert Jan, any new changes to X3D have a lot of due diligence to meet:
- compatible new capability considered of broad interest,
- functionality writeup suitable for X3D Specification addition,
- multiple implementations, at least one of which is open source,
- example scenes for testing capabilities.
In general, one person getting one cool thing to work in one case at one time is pretty common - and not our task. We have set our sights high. That usually means extra work is needed to reach greater results.
It is sometimes hard to get everyone to agree - which is necessary for a standard. Nevertheless we've seen many many times how when people understand pros/cons/alternatives clearly, then a repeatable answer and good consensus are straightforward. Of note is that "votes" are simply indicators of what really counts: has consensus been achieved? That is how X3D stability has been so successful...
... and why X3D extensibility (the "X" in X3D) is so powerful already. Many things are possible already without prior permission.
Every single week I step back very impressed by the sheer smarts, the friendly professionalism and the shared motivation to succeed in our Web3D working group teleconferences. Participation is really rewarding. Every noted problem or gap is a future setback avoided. No single individual and no single company is anywhere near as smart as all of us working together... for over twenty years now. Amazing!
For everyone's information, Doug's FreeWrl implementation has been a critical factor in many advances. (Last time we took inventory, it scored best support of any X3D player ever - impressive!) When we add X3DOM, X_ITE, Castle Game Engine and other currently active X3D implementations, the future keeps getting brighter. We are making good progress towards X3D version 4, and much goodness will occur this year.
Interestingly, having a standards process means that Web3D Consortium provides a "level playing field" for stable evolution and advancement. (Not something that can be said for many commercial APIs, especially in the graphics community.) Predictable rules, consensus building and Web3D/ISO standardization means that investments of time and money, by industry academia agencies and individuals, is respected and can succeed whenever done correctly.
Web3D Consortium Standards Strategy
http://www.web3d.org/strategy
Is this hard work? Sure, a lot of diligence is necessary to make sure that everything continues to work and grow together well. Web authors and users deserve no less. We want cool 3D content to last, durably.
Membership has value. I hope that anyone serious about supporting shared progress of 3D on the Web considers joining. Please participate and help in whatever way you can - listening, checking results and commenting are good places to start.
Join the Web3D Consortium
http://www.web3d.org/join
p.s. A lot of technologies claim to be "open" that actually aren't... if you want to evaluate some group yourself, a good test for "open" is "can I join?" Web3D memberships are available for companies, academia, agencies and individuals. We also put very high priority on the community - VRML and X3D would not exist without it.
Onward we go, unstoppably. Have fun with X3D! 8)
On 1/8/2019 1:22 PM, Albert Jan Wonnink wrote:
> Hi Doug,
>
> thank you for your answer. I am admiring the work that is being done by the current working groups and it seems almost like an impossible job to get 'global' consensus about thus many parts of a specification.
>
> In the mean time the rate of development increases exponentially, so it will probably be more and more difficult to keep specifications like x3d up with new devices and possibilities for which these are needed.
>
> It is an interesting era.
>
> Regards
>
> Albert Jan
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *Van:* x3d-public <x3d-public-bounces at web3d.org> namens x3d-public-request at web3d.org <x3d-public-request at web3d.org>
> *Verzonden:* maandag 7 januari 2019 14:46
> *Aan:* x3d-public at web3d.org
> *Onderwerp:* x3d-public Digest, Vol 118, Issue 16
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Euler rotation (GPU Group)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2019 06:45:14 -0700
> From: GPU Group <gpugroup at gmail.com>
> To: X3D-Public <x3d-public at web3d.org>
> Subject: Re: [x3d-public] Euler rotation
> Message-ID:
> <CAM2ogRdpwmnOVDxsWXzq-ihszCUWKcs26BWfvCa6skBJtThyNQ at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> And this is a tough crowd AJ - they rake you over the coals here. No
> instant applause allowed. I've submitted a few ideas through the specs
> comments and very little saw its way into specs v4. Personally I love the
> euler idea - in large part because I think it would welcome more users from
> different backgrounds and skill levels, trying to get started in x3d.
> I suspect to get things adopted, its better to become a full member, and
> sit on various 'boards' where we can nurse our pet ideas through to final
> specs. I would do that process but I always seem to have my year booked.
> Maybe some day.
> -Doug Sanden
>
> On Mon, Jan 7, 2019 at 4:39 AM Albert Jan Wonnink <awonnink at hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Joseph,
>>
>> Thank you for your reply. Just to be sure: the context I meant to discuss
>> is about having a convenient attribute in the declarative syntax, say
>> 'euler', to set the initial orientation of the transform, so anyone can use
>> either 'rotation' or 'euler'.
>>
>> <transform euler="20 40 10" >
>>
>> So I interpreted Vince's $yaw, $pitch and $roll to be just placeholders,
>> for manual substitution.
>>
>> You are right using this with either radians or degrees would be equally
>> simple.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Albert Jan
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From: *Joseph D Williams <joedwil at earthlink.net>
>> *Sent: *Sunday, January 6, 2019 7:20 PM
>> *To: *Albert Jan Wonnink <awonnink at hotmail.com>; vmarchetti at kshell.com;
>> X3D-Public <x3d-public at web3d.org>
>> *Subject: *Re: [x3d-public] Euler rotation
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi Albert and All,
>>
>> When you use euler (or Tait-Bryan) angles for a while you will find that
>> you get problems.
>>
>> Actually there is plenty of writing about the details maybe even in the
>> x3d or hanim archives and widely on the web.
>>
>>
>>
>> In addition, when you create or edit the things much then you will find it
>> is actually a lot easier to use quats or axis-angle radians. In general,
>> for degrees, maybe your editing system may offer as a learning tool if
>> radian is really an elementary block to learning, but really, never in the
>> user code due to misleading simplicity and what ?cha finally gonna tell ?em
>> when the gimbals lock?
>>
>>
>>
>> - <Transform DEF="yaw-rotation" rotation="0 0 1 $yaw">
>> - <Transform DEF="pitch-rotation" rotation="0 1 0 $pitch">
>> - <Transform DEF="roll-rotation" rotation="1 0 0 $roll">
>>
>>
>>
>> Besides the fact that a variable is not allowed there
>>
>> (maybe use a prototype if you need a variable?)
>>
>> I don't think your naming of yaw and pitch and roll is reasonable for x3d.
>>
>>
>>
>> For default transform rotation 0 0 1 0, sit on it and face +z and find +y
>> is up and +x is left.
>>
>> then fly the thing using pitch and yaw and roll.
>>
>> The x3d axis-angle parameters are most likely pitch yaw roll then the
>> scale,
>>
>> and I think the same order for quaternions, except where the 'scale' is
>> placed and the special limits for values.
>>
>>
>>
>> Why not try the following:
>>
>>
>>
>> DEF Pitch OrientationInterpolator {
>>
>> key [ 0, 0.25 0.5, 0.75 1 ]
>>
>> keyValue [ 0 0 1 0, 1 0 0 1.5, 0 0 1 0, -1 0 0 1.5, 0 0 1 0 ] }
>>
>>
>>
>> DEF Yaw OrientationInterpolator { key [ 0, 0.25 0.5, 0.75 1 ]
>>
>> keyValue [ 0 0 1 0, 0 1 0 1.5, 0 0 1 0, 0 -1 0 1.5, 0 0 1 0 ] }
>>
>>
>>
>> DEF Roll OrientationInterpolator {
>>
>> key [ 0, 0.25 0.5, 0.75 1 ]
>>
>> keyValue [ 0 0 1 0, 0 0 1 1.5, 0 0 1 0, 0 0 1 1.5, 0 0 1 0 ] }
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks and Best,
>>
>> Joe
>>
>>
>>
>> *From: *Albert Jan Wonnink <awonnink at hotmail.com>
>> *Sent: *Sunday, January 6, 2019 2:25 PM
>> *To: *vmarchetti at kshell.com; X3D-Public <x3d-public at web3d.org>
>> *Subject: *Re: [x3d-public] Euler rotation
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks Vince, for your reply.
>>
>>
>>
>> As long as the angles and X3D code is generated by code one can of course
>> easily calculate the individual parameters for a quaternion. But during the
>> testing of our experimental Unity based browser, and preparing scenes for
>> that, I found it very easy to extend the transform specification with a
>> degree-based Euler attribute (Tait-Bryan would also have worked).
>>
>>
>>
>> The current system still makes it relatively difficult to manually apply
>> an angle of the most used fractions of PI, doesn't it?
>>
>>
>>
>> I guess this issue must have been discussed in one of the early days of
>> the X3D specification. But it seems to me a lost chance to make it more
>> convenient.
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Albert Jan Wonnink
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> [image: cid:image002.png at 01D4A5E3.FD08F950]
>>
>> *Van:* vmarchetti at kshell.com <vmarchetti at kshell.com>
>> *Verzonden:* zondag 6 januari 2019 22:49
>> *Aan:* Albert Jan Wonnink; X3D-Public
>> *Onderwerp:* Re: [x3d-public] Euler rotation
>>
>>
>>
>> There is no single node Euler angle alternative representation of a
>> rotation transform defined in the current (v 3.3) X3D standard.
>>
>>
>>
>> You can get an easier to edit representation of Euler angle rotation
>> (specifically the Tait-Bryan angles,
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euler_angles#Tait%E2%80%93Bryan_angles
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euler_angles#Tait?Bryan_angles>, commonly
>> used for vehicle oriented
>>
>> with respect to the horizon, by nesting 3 Transforms:
>>
>>
>>
>> <Transform DEF="yaw-rotation" rotation="0 0 1 $yaw">
>>
>> <Transform DEF="pitch-rotation" rotation="0 1 0 $pitch">
>>
>> <Transform DEF="roll-rotation" rotation="1 0 0 $roll">
>>
>> <!-- put vehicle model here -->
>>
>> <Shape>...</Shape>
>>
>> </Transform>
>>
>> </Transform>
>>
>> </Transform>
>>
>>
>>
>> where for $yaw, $pitch, $roll you need to substitute the numerical value
>> of the rotation angle in radians.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Vince Marchetti
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jan 6, 2019, at 12:53 PM, Albert Jan Wonnink <awonnink at hotmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Is there, or should there be, an Euler alternative for the transform
>> 'rotation' property? This makes direct x3d code editing much easier.
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Albert Jan Wonnink
>>
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>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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all the best, Don
--
Don Brutzman Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br brutzman at nps.edu
Watkins 270, MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA +1.831.656.2149
X3D graphics, virtual worlds, navy robotics http://faculty.nps.edu/brutzman
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