[x3d-public] [x3d] Spec Comment by dougsanden on 19775-1:X3DArchitecture - V3.0
GPU Group
gpugroup at gmail.com
Sun Jun 14 09:24:30 PDT 2020
5. more than one way to generate 2 rays / bearings / 5-DOF (degree of
freedom) rays:
- game controller - most have 2 thumb buttons, and so in theory could be
used as 2 separate rays - like a multitouch device (but I haven't tried it)
- mouse - press an ALT or other modifier button to alternate between rays
- (Appendix G arrow keys for ray 2, mouse xy, LMB for ray 1)
- mouse in one hand, WiiMote wand in other hand
- etc
SUMMARY: the SENSORS section is already pretty good at abstracting pointing
devices to talk about 3D rays/bearings/5DOF pointing. So trying to keep the
MULTI part general will help adoption and use going forward.
-Doug
On Sun, Jun 14, 2020 at 10:05 AM GPU Group <gpugroup at gmail.com> wrote:
> 1. I think the mouse + MultitouchSensor idea was submitted as a SPEC
> COMMENT or I hereby declare it so.
> So its no longer my method'- I'll call it the web3d.org mouse +
> MultiTouchSensor method.
> 2. I haven't implemented it, but something similar in a more general
> multitouch emulator that uses a mouse
> 3. it wouldn't need to be a mouse - any 2D+viewpoint or 3D raycasting /
> pointing device / bearing device can do this
> - HMD head mounted display with gyro and viewport center pointer
> - game console/controller thumbstick
> - touch device with only one touch allowed
> - etc
> 4. how:
> a) shoot first ray/bearing as an anchor / pin / pivot point and freeze it
> (the ray) as the first point/drag of the multitouch sensor
> b) shoot a 2nd ray/bearing and downdrag/downdrag/drag it as the 2nd point
> of the multi-touch
> c) after dragging to scale and rotate, release the 2nd downdrag leaving
> the first
> d) unfreeze the first ray/drag
> d) drag the first if desired to adjust translation
> e) release the first drag
> f) repeat / iterate as needed
>
> down-drag - primary pointing device (2D+viewpoint or 3D) with primary
> trigger on / pressed / activated and motion (vs clicking)
> shoot - point pointing device, and active trigger
>
> -Doug Sanden
>
> On Sun, Jun 14, 2020 at 9:45 AM Don Brutzman <brutzman at nps.edu> wrote:
>
>> Thanks for pointing at that Joe, very important and often overlooked.
>> Agreed that it describes how our device-neutral definitions actually work,
>> and that it could be very helpful to extend.
>>
>> Doug, can you describe how your "MultiTouch using a Mouse" works?
>>
>> Given that, Dick and I can accept/adapt/rephrase the wording for Annex G
>> to define suggested practices for "MultiTouch using a Single Pointing
>> Device".
>>
>> On 6/14/2020 8:36 AM, Joseph D Williams wrote:
>> > For example:
>> >
>> > *WALK: forward/backward/left/right*
>> >
>> > *FLY: forward/backward/left/right*
>> >
>> > *EXAMINE: orbit up/down/left/right around center of rotation*
>> >
>> > * with camera pointed at center of rotation*
>> >
>> > **
>> >
>> > Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for
>> Windows 10
>> >
>> > *From: *Joseph D Williams <mailto:joedwil at earthlink.net>
>> > *Sent: *Sunday, June 14, 2020 8:31 AM
>> > *To: *GPU Group <mailto:gpugroup at gmail.com>; X3D Graphics public
>> mailing list <mailto:x3d-public at web3d.org>
>> > *Subject: *Re: [x3d-public] [x3d] Spec Comment by dougsanden on
>> 19775-1:X3DArchitecture - V3.0
>> >
>> > * Q. And could/should named navigation modes/types be
>> >
>> > How about some more work on:
>> >
>> > Extensible 3D (X3D) Part 1: Architecture and base components
>> >
>> > Annex G Recommended navigation behaviours
>> >
>> > (informative)
>> >
>> >
>> https://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19775-1/V3.3/Part01/behaviours.html
>> >
>> > Several reasons the annex was informative at that time, or even
>> attempted.
>> >
>> > Maybe more Is understood now, and this offers some guidance from some
>> point in time.
>> >
>> > Thanks,
>> >
>> > Joe
>> >
>> > *From: *GPU Group <mailto:gpugroup at gmail.com>
>> > *Sent: *Sunday, June 14, 2020 6:28 AM
>> > *To: *X3D Graphics public mailing list <mailto:x3d-public at web3d.org>
>> > *Subject: *Re: [x3d-public] [x3d] Spec Comment by dougsanden on
>> 19775-1: X3DArchitecture - V3.0
>> >
>> > Forwarding some comments on other channels
>> >
>> > Q. should specs > NavigationInfo attempt to abstract input / pointing
>> device terminology
>> >
>> > - so gyros, game controllers/pads, touch screens, 3D pointing devices
>> ?, HMD / AR gyro/view-center - can all be mapped more generically:
>> >
>> > Instead of mouse xy, it would be 'primaryXY channel' or 'primary
>> 2D pointing device'
>> >
>> > Q. And could/should named navigation modes/types be specified in terms
>> of the order and transform element being mapped to:
>> >
>> > WALK: yaw and Z are applied to last yaw-z pose, then pitch-roll applied
>> >
>> > FREEFLY: yaw,z,pitch,roll are applied in any order
>> >
>> > Perhaps something in a table format?
>> >
>> > Thanks,
>> >
>> > Doug Sanden
>> >
>> > On Sat, Jun 13, 2020 at 12:15 PM GPU Group <gpugroup at gmail.com <mailto:
>> gpugroup at gmail.com>> wrote:
>> >
>> > "have your ray loop forget about ID=2"
>> >
>> > One notable difference between a touch device and a mouse: a mouse
>> has an up-drag. A touch doesn't.
>> >
>> > - that makes no difference to MultiTouch/MultiDragSensor, which
>> only works with down-drags.
>> >
>> > Where you see the difference: isOver, and navigation modes that
>> assume updrag is available - like proposed GAME mode.
>> >
>> > And what you do when a button / touch is 'released':
>> >
>> > - updrag-capabile input devices: you likely just change a button
>> state, and keep drawing the cursor at the last location
>> >
>> > - updrag-incapable input devices - you likely
>> release/forget/recycle the ID number
>> >
>> > SUMMARY: web3d specs may need more terms to describe input device
>> classes and capabilities more abstractly
>> >
>> > - up-drags
>> >
>> > - drag-ID
>> >
>> > - drag-ID recycling
>> >
>> > On Sat, Jun 13, 2020 at 11:59 AM GPU Group <gpugroup at gmail.com
>> <mailto:gpugroup at gmail.com>> wrote:
>> >
>> > Drags need an ID ie 1,2,3 and that comes normally in windows 7
>> desktop WM_TOUCH events, or more precisely you can get an index number in a
>> lookup table of touches.
>> >
>> > A mouse-friendly use of a MultiDragSensor:
>> >
>> > - your regular pointing device ray might be ID=1
>> >
>> > - to create a second ray, you can park/freeze ID=1 with some
>> mouse or keyboard button ie MMB - and push a 2nd one with ID=2 onto a stack
>> >
>> > - then you would move drag ID= 2, until done with scaling and
>> rotation, and unfreeze / pop to get back to dragging ID=1 - maybe same
>> button- and have your ray loop forget about ID=2 after that, until the user
>> repeats the cycle. Or something like that.
>> >
>> > SUMMARY: yes - it can be abstracted from touch devices, but you
>> still need a per-drag ID.
>> >
>> > -Doug
>> >
>> > On Sat, Jun 13, 2020 at 11:18 AM Spec Feedback <
>> spec-comment at web3d.org <mailto:spec-comment at web3d.org>> wrote:
>> >
>> > -- Submitter indicates that this comment may be public: *Yes* --
>> >
>> > Comment on 19775-1: X3D Architecture - V3.0
>> > MultiTouchSensor
>> >
>> >
>> > -----------------
>> > MultiTouchSensor > Touch vs Drag > MutliDragSensor
>> > In theory it should be called something that abstracts it from the
>> particular
>> > type of input device.
>> > Drag is more input device neutral - there could be other device-neutral
>> > terms.
>> > For example a typical game controller has 2 thumb sticks that could act
>> like
>> > 2 touches.
>> > A combination of device gyro -in HMD or mobile phone or Wii Controller-
>> and
>> > freeze-button could shoot one ray, freeze it as one touch, then shoot
>> another
>> > ray to drag.
>> > Internally, code works with a plane sensor xy origin when a button goes
>> > down/a ray is shot, then a drag xy is compared to the orgin xy to see
>> how far
>> > in what direction: internally its drag-oriented and doesn't care what
>> device
>> > shot the rays.
>> > -----------------
>> >
>> > Submitted on Saturday, 2020, June 13 - 11:18am
>> > by dougsanden (dougsanden )
>> > IP: 75.159.18.239
>> >
>> > See: https://www.web3d.org/node/1694/submission/4039
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
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>> > x3d at web3d.org <mailto:x3d at web3d.org>
>> > http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d_web3d.org
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
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>> > x3d-public at web3d.org
>> > http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org
>> >
>>
>> all the best, Don
>> --
>> Don Brutzman Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br
>> brutzman at nps.edu
>> Watkins 270, MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA
>> +1.831.656.2149
>> X3D graphics, virtual worlds, navy robotics
>> http://faculty.nps.edu/brutzman
>>
>
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