[x3d-public] CALL FOR: HAnim Level of Detail and other speed optimizations

Sun Dec 3 14:43:31 PST 2023

https://freewrl.sourceforge.io/tests/26_Humanoid_Animation/BoxManMotionOrientation_selector.x3d
https://freewrl.sourceforge.io/tests/26_Humanoid_Animation/BoxmanMotionOrientation_selector.mp4

Example scene showing an
HAnimMotionOrientation node
- MFNode children [] field holds the Position- and OrientationInterpolator
nodes
- SFString joints "" holds the joint names corresponding to the
Interpolator nodes (If 2 interpolator nodes position and orientation for a
node, put its name twice in the joints list
The video shows 1 second transitioning between a regular HAnimMotion node
(standing pose) to the walking pose done with interpolators in a
HAnimMotionOrientation node
Benefits of new node type:
- small modification to orientationInterpolator workflow
- Motion nodes (are convenient for programmers to) support transitioning
between Motions*
- Motion nodes have loose coupling via name lookup (versus routes) so can
work with LOD whole Humanoid  swapping
It took 1 day to implement in freewrl.
-Doug
*Transitioning: the joint matrix is multiplied by 2 matrices, one from the
prior Motion and one from the new Motion. Each motion is partially
weighted, based on how far into the transition time the frame time is, and
in such a way the 2 weights sum to 1. The weight is applied to a convenient
scalar, for example the angle in the SFRotation or to an euler angle.

On Tue, Nov 21, 2023 at 6:57 PM GPU Group <gpugroup at gmail.com> wrote:

> Example LOD Method 2: Multi-level contiguous skin, LOD node wraps 3
> Humanoids, which share same Motion node, demonstrating animation state
> carrying over to other LOD levels
> (3 Boxman HAnimHumanoids, with yellow, cyan, magenta representing LOA3,
> LOA2, LOA1)
>
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1qF-BsZoENe_x1sVRwbRFsFgE5lQr0P5k/view?usp=sharing
>
> https://freewrl.sourceforge.io/tests/26_Humanoid_Animation/BoxmanBVH_LOD_playlib.x3d
> -Doug
>
> On Mon, Nov 20, 2023 at 5:36 PM John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Only issue i see is using same skin coord info for all skins.  If one
>> disables the skinCoord, that might work.
>>
>> John
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 20, 2023 at 5:39 PM Joe D Williams <joedwil at earthlink.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> This is a bit complex for me to consider much of for now, but I do want
>>> to see the ability to use an lod style interface to be able to use lower
>>> resolution geometries in certain situations. Please also consider the work
>>> being done in HAnim WG LOE (levels of expression) to produce different
>>> levels of feature point and geometry point density for facial animation.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Please notice that for the skeleton, the same skeleton can be used for
>>> any rendition. Only the skin and segment geometries really need to be
>>> considered. It is likely that for distance LOD effects the skin would be
>>> exchanged for simpler segment geometry, and the need for detailed
>>> animations will be reduced. So, I think it makes best practice to first
>>> consider using the same skeleton and just be concerned with changing
>>> visible geometries and reduced complexity for the animations.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> For instance the full resolution character may use a skin plus various
>>> segment geometry accessories, and the lower resolution versions drop to
>>> just segment geometries. The simpler animations can use the  same
>>> skeleton,just activate fewer joints.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Also please consider the need for various LOD effects for various
>>> elements of the humanoid. For example,the accessory watch does not need to
>>> be active until the humanoid looks at it or shows it to an observer.
>>>
>>> Likewise, there is a use case where the character or an external
>>> observer may want to see detail of certain area, such a a patch of skin, or
>>> a display of some instrumentation.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> More later. Is it possible that it is time for a phone or zoom meeting
>>> to discuss some of this?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Joe
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>
>>> From: GPU Group <gpugroup at gmail.com>
>>> Sent: Nov 19, 2023 12:47 PM
>>> To: Humanoid Animation (H-Anim) Working Group <h-anim at web3d.org>
>>> Cc: X3D Graphics public mailing list <x3d-public at web3d.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [x3d-public] CALL FOR: HAnim Level of Detail and other
>>> speed optimizations
>>>
>>>
>>> A slightly different design: use a conventional LOD node
>>> - USE the same Motions in all levels, so routing to a Motion affects all
>>> the humanoids, and Motion state -held in Motion node- is transferred to all
>>> LOAs
>>> - route to motionsEnabled in all humanoids (multiple route targets)
>>> - using Motion nodes for animation allows the loose coupling / name
>>> lookup approach
>>> - proposed MotionOrientation node type would also allow loose coupling
>>> for OrientationInterpolators so would work on all LOA skeletons
>>> LOD {
>>> range [ 1, 5, 20]
>>> children [
>>> DEF LOA3 HAnimHumanoid {
>>> motionsEnabled [true false]
>>> motions [
>>>   DEF MA Motion {...}
>>>   DEF MB Motion {...}
>>>   ]
>>> }
>>> DEF LOA2 HAnimHumanoid {
>>> motionsEnabled [true false]
>>> motions [ USE MA, USE MB ]
>>> }
>>> DEF LOA1 HAnimHumanoid {
>>> motionsEnabled [true false]
>>> motions [ USE MA, USE MB ]
>>> }
>>> ]
>>> }
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Nov 19, 2023 at 1:16 PM GPU Group <gpugroup at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> The browser would swap all related fields when swapping skeleton and
>>>> skin. But wouldn't swap .motions or .motionsEnabled -- that way the scene
>>>> only has to route to animations in the high LOA humanoid, and the state of
>>>> animation would persist across levels.
>>>> more..
>>>> The challenge is to swap humanoids, but do it in such a way that
>>>> a) routes from the scene don't need to change endpoints - such as
>>>> MotionsEnabled or to Joints
>>>> b) animations don't miss a step - animation state is carried over to
>>>> the next LOA humanoid
>>>> -Doug
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Nov 19, 2023 at 12:21 PM John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> How would skinCoord and skinNormal work?
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, Nov 18, 2023 at 12:26 PM GPU Group <gpugroup at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> LOD types > multi-level contiguous > extension to Humanoid > Proposed
>>>>>> internal extension method
>>>>>> - fields kept the same
>>>>>> - internal processing changes to do something different when there's
>>>>>> an LOD containing HAnimHumanoids in the skin field
>>>>>> a) stores parent humanoid (level 0, LOA3) and LOD level 1,2 (LOA2,
>>>>>> LOA1) humanoids in internal array
>>>>>> b) doesn't render LOD as part of skin
>>>>>> c) scrapes the SFInt32 [out] level_changed field on each frame to
>>>>>> find which humanoid to render
>>>>>> d) requires Motion or MotionOrientation methods of animation (loose
>>>>>> coupling through name lookups)
>>>>>> e) Motions and motionsEnabled are put in LOA3 parent humanoid, and
>>>>>> applied to LOA2 and LOA1 via loose name-lookup
>>>>>> Benefits:
>>>>>> - no field changes, no new node types
>>>>>> - no new nodes or fields added to x3d.py
>>>>>> - exporter can do it with some changes, such as export panel option
>>>>>> [x] package humanoids as LOD
>>>>>> Disbenefits:
>>>>>> - method not documented in specs and not obvious to scene designers
>>>>>> - hard for new browser or tool entrants to figure it out from specs
>>>>>> or sample scenes
>>>>>> - would crash or confuse a browser that's not prepared for it
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Switch {
>>>>>>   whichChoice -1
>>>>>>   children [
>>>>>>      DEF LOA2 HAnimHumanoid ...
>>>>>>      DEF LOA1 HAnimHumanoid...
>>>>>>   ]
>>>>>> }
>>>>>> DEF LOA3 HAnimHumanoid {
>>>>>> skeleton HAnimJoint { ... }
>>>>>> skin [
>>>>>>   DEF LOA3SKIN Group {...}
>>>>>>   LOD {
>>>>>>     range [ 2, 5, 20]
>>>>>>    children [
>>>>>>       Group {} #empty placeholder for LOA3, the parent humanoid
>>>>>>       USE LOA2
>>>>>>       USE LOA1
>>>>>>    ]
>>>>>>   }
>>>>>> ]
>>>>>> }
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -Doug
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, Nov 13, 2023 at 6:44 AM GPU Group <gpugroup at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> makehuman has topologies with different vertex counts:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.makehumancommunity.org/wiki/Documentation:Alternative_topologies
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> - that's available in both standalone makehuman (geometries >
>>>>>>> topologies tab) and in MPFB2 blender plugin makehuman (Apply Assets >
>>>>>>> Topologies library)
>>>>>>> - lowest poly male is 741 vertices
>>>>>>> - highest is 13290
>>>>>>> - there's a low and high poly eye or none
>>>>>>> Options
>>>>>>> - create and export each level separately from separate blender
>>>>>>> scene files, and hand-merge in LOD web3d scene
>>>>>>> - create each level in same blender scene file, export as scene with
>>>>>>> multiple humanoids at same location and hand patch file to make LOD
>>>>>>> - export panel option [x] merge humanoids as LOD
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mon, Nov 13, 2023 at 5:06 AM John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Some can probably be post-processed.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Sun, Nov 12, 2023 at 9:41 PM GPU Group <gpugroup at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> A few things related to LOD level of detail for humanoids and
>>>>>>>>> blender exporting
>>>>>>>>> 1. how to convert a contiguous makehuman skin to segments for the
>>>>>>>>> segment method
>>>>>>>>> 2. how generate more than one level of skin and skeleton detail
>>>>>>>>> with makehuman in blender for the multiple skin method
>>>>>>>>> 3. how to export 1 and 2 / how to set up the results of multiple
>>>>>>>>> levels for export so they come out in forms we can use
>>>>>>>>> - multiple skin method might use a new makeHumanLOD node which
>>>>>>>>> will have a field humanoids MFNode for each LOD as well as motions,
>>>>>>>>> motionsEnabled fields and LOD-specific fields like MFFloat range []
>>>>>>>>> 4. Apose vs Ipose - makehuman has a funny Apose for skin and
>>>>>>>>> skeleton (rig). when exporting can the difference between Ipose and Apose
>>>>>>>>> be written to the Joint.rotation fields? Can h-anim joint-named rig be
>>>>>>>>> chosen from rig list, and moved to the makehuman A-pose?
>>>>>>>>> -Doug
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Nov 12, 2023 at 5:49 PM John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>  Note, motionsEnabled may currently be disabled in HAnimHumanoid
>>>>>>>>>> Blender export code.  We can add it back with some agreement.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I believe motions is still exported, so adding motionsEnabled by
>>>>>>>>>> hand is not difficult.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I did get motions working for Pt 2 annex d example with some
>>>>>>>>>> changes.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> John
>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, Nov 11, 2023 at 9:15 AM GPU Group <gpugroup at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> LOD suggestions (all untested)
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> LOD Requirements:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> a) route to persistant fields for motions because
>>>>>>>>>>> skeleton/joints and skin are swapped
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> b) motions include routing from orientationInterpolators,  and
>>>>>>>>>>> routing to.motions and .motionsEnabled fields
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Main Options:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> A. external HAnimLOD node
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> - with MFNode field of HanimHumanoid and range [] field from LOD
>>>>>>>>>>> node
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> - would expose .motions and .motionsEnabled fields and relay
>>>>>>>>>>> their values to active LOD level Humanoid on each frame
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> B. extension to HanimHumanoid
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> - with MFFloat range [] and MFNode skeletons [] and MFNode skins
>>>>>>>>>>> []
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> - motions and motionsEnabled would be persistent
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> - on each frame motions are applied to the currently selected
>>>>>>>>>>> LOD level skeleton joints
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> OrientationInterpolator – options for persistent field targets >
>>>>>>>>>>> new node types
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> MotionRelay
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> - MFString jointNames
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> - MFRotation values
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> – takes orientationInterpolator values and expresses them as
>>>>>>>>>>> motions in Humanoid.motions field
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> - so routing to multiple LOD levels is replaced by routing to a
>>>>>>>>>>> relay
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> - relay applies to LOD level skeleton joints by name lookup
>>>>>>>>>>> during motion pass
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> x no way to convert SFRotation routes to MFRotation in web3d
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> MotionInterpolator
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> - MFString jointNames
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> - MFNode OrientationInterpolators
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> - MFBool replace
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> - no routing to skeleton joints needed, motion update code will
>>>>>>>>>>> match jointname and scrape [out] value_changed
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Neither MotionRelay nor MotionInterpolator have frameIndex,
>>>>>>>>>>> frameIncrement they aren’t fully derived from Motion abstract type, Motion
>>>>>>>>>>> hierarchy would need to be refactored
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> -Doug
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, Nov 11, 2023 at 8:05 AM GPU Group <gpugroup at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Issue: Unlike offline raytracing, realtime graphics looks best
>>>>>>>>>>>> with fast frame rates. There is some desire to go beyond cartoon-like
>>>>>>>>>>>> characters and achieve more realism in HAnim. Detailed HAnimHumanoid models
>>>>>>>>>>>> designed for raytracing can slow frame rates. Scenes with multiple
>>>>>>>>>>>> Humanoids and crowds with humanoids at different distances, and clothing
>>>>>>>>>>>> details over skin on humanoids may benefit from speed optimizations.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 1. Requirements for Level of Detail LOD type optimizations for
>>>>>>>>>>>> humanoids:
>>>>>>>>>>>> a) coordinating change of skeleton / joints with change of skin
>>>>>>>>>>>> and Coordinate node
>>>>>>>>>>>> b) persistent fields to route to, in particular motions,
>>>>>>>>>>>> motionsEnabled when using Motion nodes, and method to use
>>>>>>>>>>>> OrientationInterpolators on persistent fields as the skeleton / joint nodes
>>>>>>>>>>>> change
>>>>>>>>>>>> 2. other speed enhancements - methods to remove skin under
>>>>>>>>>>>> clothing / swap clothing detail, use of buffers and GPU
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Please post suggestions, methods and state of trial / if it has
>>>>>>>>>>>> been tested in a browser.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> -Doug
>>>>>>>>>>>> (PS I have no authority to do a CALL FOR anything. But want to
>>>>>>>>>>>> see if web3d and hanim working groups should be doing/ can benefit from
>>>>>>>>>>>> calls for)
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> x3d-public mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> x3d-public at web3d.org
>>>>>>>>>>> http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> x3d-public mailing list
>>>>>> x3d-public at web3d.org
>>>>>> http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org
>>>>>
>>>>>
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