[x3d-public] GPU APIs and X3D

[John Carlson]

YAY, standard shaders! What an opportunity!

Thanks for the link.  I know X_ITE uses #version 300 es in the shader
file.  Getting it to work is another matter.

Custom Shaders | X_ITE X3D Browser (create3000.github.io)
<https://create3000.github.io/x_ite/custom-shaders>

Reports are welcome, but I know a lot of people want to discuss this at a
conference.

Thanks!

John

On Sun, Jul 16, 2023 at 6:43 AM Andreas Plesch <andreasplesch at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Thank you, Michalis and Doug, for your comments.
>
> Looking around I found that WebGPU is partially based on Vulcan and as
> such related. Perhaps concepts and strategies would map over.
> Interestingly, WebGPU or wgpu is also apparently considered a desktop API
> and not just restricted to the web, probably due to cross-platform
> considerations.
>
> One aspect of WebGPU is better support for general, massively parallel
> computation on the GPU, as Doug points out.
>
> One of the simpler points is that X3D custom shaders would move away from
> glsl to wgsl and spirv. There are translators as well (
> https://github.com/gfx-rs/naga). As has been discussed, for portability
> X3D could have a standard set of uniforms.
>
> Andreas
>
>
> On Sat, Jul 15, 2023 at 4:52 PM Michalis Kamburelis <
> michalis.kambi at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > We do plan to add Vulkan renderer to Castle Game Engine. Some plans
> > and initial insights are on https://castle-engine.io/roadmap#vulkan .
> >
> > In the meantime, I think OpenGL will remain available for a long time.
> > At this point in time, the "OpenGL family" (OpenGL + OpenGLES + WebGL)
> > is the only way to really have cross-platform API, the includes all
> > desktops (Windows, Linux, macOS, FreeBSD...), mobile (Android, iOS),
> > web (WebGL in all browsers) and even console (Nintendo Switch; ANGLE
> > allows to use OpenGL on Xbox). So I think there's still plenty of time
> > to migrate... but indeed, Khronos explicitly said that after OpenGL
> > 4.6, focus is on Vulkan.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Michalis
> >
> > sob., 15 lip 2023 o 05:35 Andreas Plesch <andreasplesch at gmail.com>
> napisał(a):
> > >
> > > Although X3D is a high level scene graph, it is influenced by OpenGL
> > > and many, perhaps all X3D browsers use OpenGL or the similar WebGL as
> > > an API to draw pixels.
> > >
> > > OpenGL is not updated anymore and other APIs are now dominant: Metal,
> > > Vulcan, Direct3D12 and now WebGPU. It is already available in most web
> > > browsers as an alternative to WebGL2. WebGPU is cross-platform, close
> > > to GPU instructions and can be very performant.
> > >
> > > Did anybody think about or actually try to use something other than
> > > OpenGL for X3D rendering ?
> > >
> > > It is time to start speculating and mind mapping how one would go
> > > about designing a new X3D browser which uses another low-level API.
> > > Ideally, X3D is abstract enough that the choice of graphics API does
> > > not matter much. But there are certainly many aspects that an
> > > implementation has to consider which depend on the low-level API, from
> > > the design stage to actual coding.
> > >
> > > https://webgpufundamentals.org/webgpu/lessons/webgpu-from-webgl.html
> > > has a detailed comparison between WebGL and WebGPU.
> > >
> > > WebGPU is lower level. One example mentioned above is ImageTexture.
> > > With WebGL it is possible to just change the source image for the
> > > texture, and everything else in the rendering process can stay the
> > > same. With WebGPU it is necessary to destroy the old texture, and
> > > rebuild a pipeline in case the ImageTexture is changed.
> > >
> > > A Shape corresponds to a draw call in WebGL. For WebGPU a Shape
> > > presumably still could correspond to a draw call but it is also
> > > possible to bundle all draw calls for a Scene and submit those in one
> > > call. That seems interesting but it is unclear how event flow may
> > > affect this option.
> > >
> > > Any experience with nonGL APIs may be insightful.
> > >
> > > Andreas
> > >
> > > --
> > > Andreas Plesch
> > > Waltham, MA 02453
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
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> > > x3d-public at web3d.org
> > > http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org
>
>
>
> --
> Andreas Plesch
> Waltham, MA 02453
> _______________________________________________
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>
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