[x3d-public] missing centers for the HAnim joints
John Carlson
yottzumm at gmail.com
Sun Jun 4 12:34:06 PDT 2023
Also let me know if “there’s some” is correct English. Oops!
On Sun, Jun 4, 2023 at 2:32 PM John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com> wrote:
> …there’s some missing numbers after some of the Joint objects in HAnim2,
> table A.10. See image of table attached. I’m guessing this is causing
> some of the issues. See 3 joint objects *after* left and right talocrural.
>
> Thanks for any clarification.
>
> If you like, i can file a comment.
>
> John
>
> On Sun, Jun 4, 2023 at 2:25 PM John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Don, looking at the Table A.10 you reference below, there are some
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Jun 4, 2023 at 11:32 AM Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <
>> brutzman at nps.edu> wrote:
>>
>>> Joe and John, thanks for careful consideration of additional values.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> First, seeking to understand: are you talking about table values for the
>>> following, which at first glance already appears to be complete?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> - Table A.10 — LOA‑4: Suggested Joint objects center values
>>> -
>>> https://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19774/V2.0/Architecture/BodyDimensionsAndLOAs.html#LevelOfArticulationFour
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Meanwhile there are indeed values missing from
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> - X3D 4.0 XML Schema Documentation, simpleType *hanimJointNameValues*
>>> -
>>> https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3dSchemaDocumentation4.0/x3d-4.0.html#LinkB6
>>>
>>> and
>>>
>>> - HAnim2 default values for Joint and Site (feature point) nodes
>>> - *Total hanimJointNameValues enumeration elements missing default
>>> values: 59 (out of 146 total)*
>>> -
>>> https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/HumanoidAnimation/HAnim2DefaultValuesJointsFeaturePoints.txt
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Given identification of additional suggested values, when you think they
>>> are correct and ready, we can
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 1. Add an example model to the archives which illustrates these
>>> additional default values,
>>> 2. Update X3D XML Schema (and X3DUOM, X3DJSAIL, X3DPSAIL, X3D
>>> Tooltips) to include the added values,
>>> 3. Create a Mantis issue to formally add the agreed-upon values to
>>> future versions of HAnim2 and X3D4 specifications.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> p.s. hope you find that missing toe! :0
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> all the best, Don
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Don Brutzman Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br
>>> brutzman at nps.edu
>>>
>>> Watkins 270, MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA
>>> +1.831.656.2149
>>>
>>> X3D graphics, virtual worlds, navy robotics
>>> https://faculty.nps.edu/brutzman
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* Joseph D Williams <joedwil at earthlink.net>
>>> *Sent:* Sunday, June 4, 2023 8:54 AM
>>> *To:* John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com>; Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <
>>> brutzman at nps.edu>
>>> *Cc:* X3D Public Mailing List (x3d-public at web3d.org) <
>>> x3d-public at web3d.org>
>>> *Subject:* RE: [x3d-public] X3D meeting minutes 2 June 2023:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Yes, John, can you send me your latest rescaled joint centers?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> As for the geometry, see that original structure is drawn as:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *world coordinate system*
>>>
>>> Humanoid scale 0.025 0.025 0.025
>>>
>>> …
>>>
>>> Joint center x y z
>>>
>>> Segment
>>>
>>> Geometry translation x y z
>>>
>>> IFS … x y z, …
>>>
>>> …
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> So the centers and geometry x y z coordinates are drawn in some
>>> arbitrary space about 40 or so times bigger than default humanoid space,
>>> same as default world coordinate system, then the centers and geometry are
>>> scaled in the Humanoid node to be drawn into default humanoid space. Each
>>> IFS segment geometry is drawn in some location in same coordinate space as
>>> original joint centers then translated into position.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> As you begin to accomplish more complex motions and detailed
>>> interactions you will find that you wish you had just drawn the thing
>>> directly in default Humanoid space. Sure the tool can do a lot of this for
>>> you but I think you will find In general, it will be easier and less
>>> guessing If you are using default Humanoid space (1 unit = one meter) than
>>> another arbitrary coordinate system because then you can define your work
>>> in realistic space with realistic measurements.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> So, to tune this otherwise fine example into default Humanoid space, the
>>> first step is to rescale the joint centers to default skeleton space, same
>>> as default Humanoid space. The rescaled skeleton should be drawn facing +z
>>> with 0 0 0 at the floor between the feet and +Y up.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Next, for the segment geometry. Each IFS is drawn in the original
>>> coordinate space, scaled by the values in the Humanoid node scale value,
>>> then is contained in a transform with translation to move the IFS to the
>>> appropriate location. So the IFS is drawn in the same coordinate space as
>>> the joint center then the transform translation moves the IFS from where it
>>> was drawn to the correct location in Segment space, which is the same as
>>> joint center space.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> But Joint center space has been rescaled to draw the model skeleton
>>> directly in default Humanoid space.
>>>
>>> So since we wish to draw the ifs directly in skeleton space the first
>>> step is to rescale the ifs. Same as Joint center operation, each coordinate
>>> times scale factor. Next we get rid of the translation, same as joint
>>> center and ifs rescaling, then finally, translate the rescaled ifs by the
>>> rescaled translation values.
>>>
>>> Then the geometry should be in default Humanoid space, default skeleton
>>> space, and defalult segment space.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Now the user code structure is:
>>>
>>> *world coordinate system*
>>>
>>> Humanoid scale 1 1 1
>>>
>>> …
>>>
>>> Joint center x’ y’ z’ (where the ‘ = standard Humanoid space)
>>>
>>> Segment
>>>
>>> Geometry translation 0 0 0
>>>
>>> IFS … x’ y’ z’, …
>>>
>>> …
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Everything will work better when the author can use direct realistic
>>> measurements to develop behaviors and interactions with other models and
>>> realistic environments.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Joe
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From: *John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com>
>>> *Sent: *Friday, June 2, 2023 1:10 PM
>>> *To: *Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <brutzman at nps.edu>
>>> *Cc: *X3D Public Mailing List (x3d-public at web3d.org)
>>> <x3d-public at web3d.org>
>>> *Subject: *Re: [x3d-public] X3D meeting minutes 2 June 2023:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Correction, centers for hands and feet, minus one toe!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> John
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jun 2, 2023 at 3:05 PM John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> I’d like to say that I completed the missing centers for the HAnim
>>> joints, and this got translated from JinLOA4… to my scene with sites and
>>> segments. Joe has looked at the centers, and is anxious to get them
>>> installed in schema and object model.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The next step is to get geometry scaling working followed by
>>> incorporation into schema and object model.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I need additional assistance with HAnim geometry scaling if someone want
>>> to try it. I’m using some form of JinLOA4.x3d.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> John
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jun 2, 2023 at 12:10 PM Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <
>>> brutzman at nps.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>> Attendees: Anita Havele, Nicholas Polys, Dick Puk, Don Brutzman.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Here are our minutes for this week – steady progress in multiple
>>> directions. All participation in our weekly meetings is welcome.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 1. *Participation*. The X3D Working Group meets weekly on Fridays
>>> 09-1000 Pacific on Web3D Consortium zoom channel. Telcon information:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ·
>>> https://us02web.zoom.us/j/81634670698?pwd=a1VPeU5tN01rc21Oa3hScUlHK0Rxdz09
>>> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fus02web.zoom.us%2Fj%2F81634670698%3Fpwd%3Da1VPeU5tN01rc21Oa3hScUlHK0Rxdz09&data=05%7C01%7Cbrutzman%40nps.edu%7Cf0cd1753e3954876829f08db6513ec7c%7C6d936231a51740ea9199f7578963378e%7C0%7C0%7C638214908477233713%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=GokFEUg1kg223pIlyw1acAfe3GWRDtMfNxgj%2BPXrGe8%3D&reserved=0>
>>>
>>> · https://zoom.us/j/148206572
>>> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fzoom.us%2Fj%2F148206572&data=05%7C01%7Cbrutzman%40nps.edu%7Cf0cd1753e3954876829f08db6513ec7c%7C6d936231a51740ea9199f7578963378e%7C0%7C0%7C638214908477233713%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=a84efvN7CFuhLnmaI2%2Ffd5PIBcM%2BvXhQdPEinvfUlro%3D&reserved=0>
>>> Password 483805
>>>
>>> · https://www.web3d.org/member/teleconference-information
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 1. *X3D 2023 goals. *Our primary activities for X3D Working Group in
>>> 2023 are focused on broad and correct deployment.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> a. Encourage consistent rendering, interaction and usage for the many
>>> tremendous capabilities in X3D4.
>>>
>>> b. Update ISO specifications and implementations for multiple
>>> programming languages and file encodings to match X3D4.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 2. *SIGGRAPH 2023 and Web3D 2023 conference planning updates*
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Continuing discussion on activities, dates, times, participation, and
>>> plans.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> · SIGGRAPH 2023, Los Angeles, 6-10 August
>>>
>>> · https://s2023.siggraph.org
>>> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fs2023.siggraph.org%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cbrutzman%40nps.edu%7Cf0cd1753e3954876829f08db6513ec7c%7C6d936231a51740ea9199f7578963378e%7C0%7C0%7C638214908477233713%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=KQ%2B0PCHtpg4WMkqWZ5hzBnjE0AD9LmRVp6arGgAV0Wk%3D&reserved=0>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Summary of Web3D events:
>>>
>>> · Celebrate 50 Years of SIGGRAPH Conferences with Web3D Consortium
>>>
>>> · https://www.web3d.org/event/web3d-siggraph-2023
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Out of many topics, three Birds of a Feather (BOF) sessions are planned
>>> showing Web3D capabilities.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> · https://s2023.siggraph.org/program/birds-of-a-feather
>>> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fs2023.siggraph.org%2Fprogram%2Fbirds-of-a-feather&data=05%7C01%7Cbrutzman%40nps.edu%7Cf0cd1753e3954876829f08db6513ec7c%7C6d936231a51740ea9199f7578963378e%7C0%7C0%7C638214908477233713%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=lTmBk%2FQ%2BmPLyWrwy58zqJ9g4a91jZ8ToC3068iVkiLY%3D&reserved=0>
>>>
>>> · https://s2023.siggraph.org/full-program/?filter1=sstype149
>>> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fs2023.siggraph.org%2Ffull-program%2F%3Ffilter1%3Dsstype149&data=05%7C01%7Cbrutzman%40nps.edu%7Cf0cd1753e3954876829f08db6513ec7c%7C6d936231a51740ea9199f7578963378e%7C0%7C0%7C638214908477233713%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=YZHSphQF1rWngVOhtimYZUjz5R0YbEGleg5fEWg9tVs%3D&reserved=0>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *Cartographic Visualization BOF*
>>>
>>> · Monday, August 7, Noon - 1:30 PM in the ACM SIGGRAPH Village
>>> Theater.
>>>
>>> · ACM SIGGRAPH Cartographic (Carto) Visualization Bird of a Feather
>>> (BOF) session will highlight the future of digital mapping to support our
>>> daily lives. Presenters will demonstrate various solutions for interactive
>>> cartographic display and international mapping.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *X3D4 is Web3D Ready - A major upgrade to the Extensible 3D (X3D)
>>> Graphics*
>>>
>>> · Monday, 7 August 2023 - 3:00 PM - 4:30 PM Pacific
>>>
>>> · Join us and learn more on how X3D4 has evolved to support
>>> current 3D technologies. X3D4 provides close support for the HTML5
>>> Recommendation, Khronos glTF Physically Based Rendering (PBR), and Web
>>> Audio API.
>>>
>>> · X3D4 is the basis of multiple file encodings and programming
>>> language bindings. The X3D4 Architecture Specification is Web ready, used
>>> in many 3D applications, highly mature, implemented, functionally complete,
>>> and undergoing final editorial review for International Standards
>>> Organization (ISO).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *3D Web Interoperability for the Metaverse*
>>>
>>> · Tuesday, 8 August 2023 - 1:00 PM - 3:00 PM Pacific
>>>
>>> · To make the Metaverse fully interoperable with the WWW and the
>>> Standards ecosystem we need new Metaverse capabilities. Join us in
>>> discussions on how to enable robust patterns for interoperable content
>>> authoring and delivery workflows across the Web and now to flourish on a
>>> strong foundation of Visual graphics, Interface capabilities, Web
>>> Architecture and Compression/streaming technologies.
>>>
>>> · Topics include formation and next steps for 3D Web
>>> Interoperability Exploratory Group at Metaverse Standards Forum (MSF)
>>> https://metaverse-standards.org
>>> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmetaverse-standards.org%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cbrutzman%40nps.edu%7Cf0cd1753e3954876829f08db6513ec7c%7C6d936231a51740ea9199f7578963378e%7C0%7C0%7C638214908477233713%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=UX7UTA7SH%2F%2BVW0IKQKUSDyHLqB8nlVrdkYhCVcbG%2ByE%3D&reserved=0>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> · Web3D 2023 Conference
>>>
>>> · Vicomtech San Sebastian Spain, 9-11 October
>>>
>>> · https://web3d.siggraph.org
>>> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fweb3d.siggraph.org%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cbrutzman%40nps.edu%7Cf0cd1753e3954876829f08db6513ec7c%7C6d936231a51740ea9199f7578963378e%7C0%7C0%7C638214908477233713%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=uSvkRMgjHBvK6NvwA5jxJq6lzrcgeAgwb%2B%2B1tPgp%2Bjw%3D&reserved=0>
>>>
>>> · https://web3d.siggraph.org/cfp
>>> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fweb3d.siggraph.org%2Fcfp&data=05%7C01%7Cbrutzman%40nps.edu%7Cf0cd1753e3954876829f08db6513ec7c%7C6d936231a51740ea9199f7578963378e%7C0%7C0%7C638214908477233713%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=g87gig5%2FsBT5iuWAMtAVnQsda2jYJ4Xf1cQ7vkpQ40U%3D&reserved=0>
>>>
>>> · Towards interconnectivity of Metaverses
>>>
>>> · The purpose of the 28th International ACM Conference on 3D Web
>>> Technology (Web3D 2023) is to study and share the principles and the latest
>>> advancements in connected 3D universes. Provide navigation metaphors that
>>> allow users to move seamlessly from one virtual world to another.
>>>
>>> · The goal of the conference and of the Web3D community, which has
>>> a rich history of developing technologies that enable the creation,
>>> transmission, access, interaction, sharing, and visualization of 3D
>>> universes. Bringing together a diverse group of individuals to share
>>> innovative and influential thoughts on how the metaverse can revolutionize
>>> the future of communications. This includes topics such as 3D applications
>>> and services accessible through a wide range of devices, from simple mobile
>>> phones to more complex systems such as AR/VR headsets, and heavily
>>> populated virtual worlds, especially those connected through high-speed,
>>> low-latency networks.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Main important dates:
>>>
>>> § Paper Submission: June 15th, 2023
>>>
>>> § Notification of acceptance: July 27th, 2023
>>>
>>> § Final paper version: August 13th, 2023
>>>
>>> § Competition Submission: September 8, 2023
>>>
>>> § Conference dates: October 9th to 11th, 2023
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 3. INCITS and ISO Planning.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Quarterly meeting next week. Updates sent. We have recommended that
>>> INCITS supports the further participation of MSF in ISO JTC-1 SC24.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 4. MSF progress and planning. Description of 3D Web Interoperability
>>> above is helpful, we are using it. More details at SIGGRAPH and when the
>>> draft charter being produced by Exploratory Group goes public at MSF.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 5. HAnim working group is making excellent progress, we had a
>>> several-hour meeting yesterday focused on IEEE 3D body processing and
>>> fashion issues.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> · Access to HAnim working group meetings is for members, as are
>>> minutes and hanim mailing list. Thus all conversations are in confidence
>>> and respect the Intellectual Property Rights (IPR) of unpublished materials
>>> by other organizations. Please see HAnim Working Group charter for details.
>>>
>>> https://www.web3d.org/working-groups/humanoid-animation-hanim
>>>
>>> · Products of this working group, including (most) tools and
>>> schemas and references to published IEEE standards (for example) are all
>>> public.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Have fun with X3D! 8)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> all the best, Don
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Don Brutzman Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br
>>> brutzman at nps.edu
>>>
>>> Watkins 270, MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA
>>> +1.831.656.2149
>>>
>>> X3D graphics, virtual worlds, navy robotics
>>> https://faculty.nps.edu/brutzman
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> x3d-public mailing list
>>> x3d-public at web3d.org
>>> http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
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