[x3d-public] missing centers for the HAnim joints

John Carlson yottzumm at gmail.com
Sun Jun 4 13:00:25 PDT 2023


These appear to be the problematic lines in HAnim2 table A.10.   We could
pull some centers from centers.txt possibly, but Joe needs to weigh in.

      <td><span class="Code">l_tarsotarsal_interphalangeal_</span></td>
      <td><span class="Code">l_metatarsophalangeal_</span></td>
      <td><span class="Code">l_tarsal_interphalangeal_</span></td>
      <td><span class="Code">r_tarsotarsal_interphalangeal_</span></td>
      <td><span class="Code">r_metatarsophalangeal_</span></td>
      <td><span class="Code">r_tarsal_interphalangeal_</span></td>
===================================================
Here are the joints with missing centers, "Big toes", I think:

humanoid_root
l_tarsal_interphalangeal_1
r_tarsal_interphalangeal_1

The table and the missing centers seem related!

Here's the humanoid I've been trying to scale:

JinLOA4Canonical.x3d

replace ..... with "Canonical" in previous messages.  Joe can provide the
XML, when someone wants to take over the task of scaling JinLOA4.

Joe provided extensive pseudo-code in another email, which I thank him for,
but it's beyond my capability to read right now.

Anyway, interesting issues!

Thanks!

John

On Sun, Jun 4, 2023 at 11:32 AM Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <
brutzman at nps.edu> wrote:

> Joe and John, thanks for careful consideration of additional values.
>
>
>
> First, seeking to understand: are you talking about table values for the
> following, which at first glance already appears to be complete?
>
>
>
>    - Table A.10 — LOA‑4: Suggested Joint objects center values
>    -
>    https://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19774/V2.0/Architecture/BodyDimensionsAndLOAs.html#LevelOfArticulationFour
>
>
>
> Meanwhile there are indeed values missing from
>
>
>
>    - X3D 4.0 XML Schema Documentation, simpleType *hanimJointNameValues*
>    -
>    https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3dSchemaDocumentation4.0/x3d-4.0.html#LinkB6
>
> and
>
>    - HAnim2 default values for Joint and Site (feature point) nodes
>    - *Total hanimJointNameValues enumeration elements missing default
>    values: 59 (out of 146 total)*
>    -
>    https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/HumanoidAnimation/HAnim2DefaultValuesJointsFeaturePoints.txt
>
>
>
> Given identification of additional suggested values, when you think they
> are correct and ready, we can
>
>
>
>    1. Add an example model to the archives which illustrates these
>    additional default values,
>    2. Update X3D XML Schema (and X3DUOM, X3DJSAIL, X3DPSAIL, X3D
>    Tooltips) to include the added values,
>    3. Create a Mantis issue to formally add the agreed-upon values to
>    future versions of HAnim2 and X3D4 specifications.
>
>
>
> p.s. hope you find that missing toe!  :0
>
>
>
> all the best, Don
>
> --
>
> Don Brutzman  Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br
> brutzman at nps.edu
>
> Watkins 270,  MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA
> +1.831.656.2149
>
> X3D graphics, virtual worlds, navy robotics
> https://faculty.nps.edu/brutzman
>
>
>
> *From:* Joseph D Williams <joedwil at earthlink.net>
> *Sent:* Sunday, June 4, 2023 8:54 AM
> *To:* John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com>; Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <
> brutzman at nps.edu>
> *Cc:* X3D Public Mailing List (x3d-public at web3d.org) <x3d-public at web3d.org
> >
> *Subject:* RE: [x3d-public] X3D meeting minutes 2 June 2023:
>
>
>
> Yes, John, can you send me your latest rescaled joint centers?
>
>
>
> As for the geometry, see that original structure is drawn as:
>
>
>
> *world coordinate system*
>
> Humanoid scale 0.025 0.025 0.025
>
>>
>  Joint center x y z
>
>    Segment
>
>     Geometry translation x y z
>
>      IFS … x y z, …
>
>>
>
>
> So the centers and geometry x y z coordinates are drawn in some arbitrary
> space about 40 or so times bigger than default humanoid space, same as
> default world coordinate system, then the centers and geometry are scaled
> in the Humanoid node to be drawn into default humanoid space. Each IFS
> segment geometry is drawn in some location in same coordinate space as
> original joint centers then translated into position.
>
>
>
> As you begin to accomplish more complex motions and detailed interactions
> you will find that you wish you had just drawn the thing directly in
> default Humanoid space. Sure the tool can do a lot of this for you but I
> think you will find In general, it will be easier and less guessing If you
> are using default Humanoid space (1 unit  = one meter) than another
> arbitrary coordinate system because then you can define your work in
> realistic space with realistic measurements.
>
>
>
> So, to tune this otherwise fine example into default Humanoid space, the
> first step is to rescale the joint centers to default skeleton space, same
> as default Humanoid space. The rescaled skeleton should be drawn facing +z
> with 0 0 0 at the floor between the feet and +Y up.
>
>
>
> Next, for the segment geometry. Each IFS is drawn in the original
> coordinate space, scaled by the values in the Humanoid node scale value,
> then is contained in a transform with translation to move the IFS to the
> appropriate location. So the IFS is drawn in the same coordinate space as
> the joint center then the transform translation moves the IFS from where it
> was drawn to the correct location in Segment space, which is the same as
> joint center space.
>
>
>
> But Joint center space has been rescaled to draw the model skeleton
> directly in default Humanoid space.
>
> So since we wish to draw the ifs directly in skeleton space the first step
> is to rescale the ifs. Same as Joint center operation, each coordinate
> times scale factor. Next we get rid of the translation, same as joint
> center and ifs rescaling, then finally, translate the rescaled ifs by the
> rescaled translation values.
>
> Then the geometry should be in default Humanoid space, default skeleton
> space, and defalult segment space.
>
>
>
> Now the user code structure is:
>
> *world coordinate system*
>
> Humanoid scale 1 1 1
>
>>
>  Joint center x’ y’ z’ (where the ‘ = standard Humanoid space)
>
>    Segment
>
>     Geometry translation 0 0 0
>
>      IFS … x’ y’ z’, …
>
>>
>
>
> Everything will work better when the author can use direct realistic
> measurements to develop behaviors and interactions with other models and
> realistic environments.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Joe
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com>
> *Sent: *Friday, June 2, 2023 1:10 PM
> *To: *Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <brutzman at nps.edu>
> *Cc: *X3D Public Mailing List (x3d-public at web3d.org)
> <x3d-public at web3d.org>
> *Subject: *Re: [x3d-public] X3D meeting minutes 2 June 2023:
>
>
>
> Correction, centers for hands and feet, minus one toe!
>
>
>
> John
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jun 2, 2023 at 3:05 PM John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I’d like to say that I completed the missing centers for the HAnim joints,
> and this got translated from JinLOA4… to my scene with sites and segments.
> Joe has looked at the centers, and is anxious to get them installed in
> schema and object model.
>
>
>
> The next step is to get geometry scaling working followed by incorporation
> into schema and object model.
>
>
>
> I need additional assistance with HAnim geometry scaling if someone want
> to try it.  I’m using some form of JinLOA4.x3d.
>
>
>
> John
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jun 2, 2023 at 12:10 PM Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <
> brutzman at nps.edu> wrote:
>
> Attendees: Anita Havele, Nicholas Polys, Dick Puk, Don Brutzman.
>
>
>
> Here are our minutes for this week – steady progress in multiple
> directions.  All participation in our weekly meetings is welcome.
>
>
>
> 1.   *Participation*.  The X3D Working Group meets weekly on Fridays
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>
>
>
> 1.   *X3D 2023 goals.  *Our primary activities for X3D Working Group in
> 2023 are focused on broad and correct deployment.
>
>
>
> a.   Encourage consistent rendering, interaction and usage for the many
> tremendous capabilities in X3D4.
>
> b.   Update ISO specifications and implementations for multiple
> programming languages and file encodings to match X3D4.
>
>
>
>
>
> 2.   *SIGGRAPH 2023 and Web3D 2023 conference planning updates*
>
>
>
> Continuing discussion on activities, dates, times, participation, and
> plans.
>
>
>
>
>
> ·     SIGGRAPH 2023, Los Angeles, 6-10 August
>
> ·     https://s2023.siggraph.org
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>
>
> Summary of Web3D events:
>
> ·     Celebrate 50 Years of SIGGRAPH Conferences with Web3D Consortium
>
> ·     https://www.web3d.org/event/web3d-siggraph-2023
>
>
>
> Out of many topics, three Birds of a Feather (BOF) sessions are planned
> showing Web3D capabilities.
>
>
>
> ·     https://s2023.siggraph.org/program/birds-of-a-feather
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>
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>
> Main important dates:
>
> §  Paper Submission: June 15th, 2023
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>
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>
>
>
>
>
>
> 3.   INCITS and ISO Planning.
>
>
>
> Quarterly meeting next week.  Updates sent.  We have recommended that
> INCITS supports the further participation of MSF in ISO JTC-1 SC24.
>
>
>
> 4.   MSF progress and planning.  Description of 3D Web Interoperability
> above is helpful, we are using it.  More details at SIGGRAPH and when the
> draft charter being produced by Exploratory Group goes public at MSF.
>
>
>
> 5.   HAnim working group is making excellent progress, we had a
> several-hour meeting yesterday focused on IEEE 3D body processing and
> fashion issues.
>
>
>
> ·        Access to HAnim working group meetings is for members, as are
> minutes and hanim mailing list.  Thus all conversations are in confidence
> and respect the Intellectual Property Rights (IPR) of unpublished materials
> by other organizations.  Please see HAnim Working Group charter for details.
>
> https://www.web3d.org/working-groups/humanoid-animation-hanim
>
> ·        Products of this working group, including (most) tools and
> schemas and references to published IEEE standards (for example) are all
> public.
>
>
>
> Have fun with X3D!  8)
>
>
>
> all the best, Don
>
> --
>
> Don Brutzman  Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br
> brutzman at nps.edu
>
> Watkins 270,  MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA
> +1.831.656.2149
>
> X3D graphics, virtual worlds, navy robotics
> https://faculty.nps.edu/brutzman
>
>
>
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