[x3d-public] What are valid children of HAnimHumanoid.skin?
Michalis Kamburelis
michalis.kambi at gmail.com
Tue Oct 31 06:03:11 PDT 2023
To be clear, CGE/view3dscene are the same as FreeWRL in this regard. (And I
can bet all other X3D browsers :) )
In the end, it doesn't matter whether you write:
"""
SomeNode {
field1 DEF MyShape Shape { }
field2 USE MyShape
}
"""
or
"""
SomeNode {
field2 DEF MyShape Shape { }
field1 USE MyShape
}
"""
( In the above examples, field1 and field2 order differs. )
These both result in the exact same X3D nodes graph, exact same behavior,
which follows X3D specification from what I can tell, and I think this
matches what all X3D browsers are doing.
I know the H-Anim specification has a wording that suggests that some
fields should use USE to refer to already defined node. You can interpret
the phrase in
https://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19774-1/V2.0/Architecture/ObjectInterfaces.html#Humanoid
"""The joints field contains a list of references, one for each Joint
object defined within the skeleton field hierarchy of the Humanoid
object""" to indicate that e.g. joints should always be expressed as a list
of "USE xxx" declarations, and they usually are.
But in CGE/view3dscene, we relax this requirement (it would be odd to even
try to check it, since in general in X3D it should not matter). All it
matters is that "joints" are the same nodes as used within "skeleton"
hierarchy. You are welcome to specify either field as first, just make sure
that first node occurrence is DEF, and the other occurrences are USE.
Hope this also helps with issue John submitted (
https://github.com/castle-engine/view3dscene/issues/83 ).
Regards,
Michalis
wt., 31 paź 2023 o 13:49 GPU Group <gpugroup at gmail.com> napisał(a):
> In freewrl it doesn't matter which field skin (and children Shapes) or
> skinCoord comes first, as long as the first one in the scene file has the
> Coordinate DEF (and following ones have Coordinate USE). Once parsed into a
> scenegraph, both skinCoord and skin shapes refer to the same node instance
> in memory.
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 31, 2023 at 12:07 AM John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Actually, I reread and I’m lost again, sigh.
>>
>>
>> John
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 30, 2023 at 11:45 PM John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Annex C: VRML Encoding seems to agree with what Don posted:
>>>
>>> “
>>>
>>> The geometry of an HAnim figure can be described in two ways. The first
>>> way is within the scene graph of the joint hierarchy, which is described in
>>> the *skeleton* field of the HAnimHumanoid node. Geometry defined within
>>> HAnimSegment nodes of this joint hierarchy describe the body as
>>> separate geometric pieces. This method, while computationally efficient,
>>> has certain visual anomalies (such as seams or creases) that detract from
>>> the appearance of the HAnim figure. The second way of describing the
>>> geometry of an HAnim figure is as a continuous piece of geometry, within the
>>> *skin* field of the HAnimHumanoid node. For this method, point and
>>> normal vector data sets are first defined in the *skinCoord* and
>>> *skinNormal* fields (in the form of Coordinate and Normal nodes,
>>> respectively). This data is defined in this manner to allow it to be
>>> referenced by two different entities within the definition of the
>>> HAnimHumanoid node. The first entity is one or more IndexedFaceSet nodes
>>> that define the surface of the geometry of the humanoid within the
>>> *skin* field. In most cases, this surface is a single IndexedFaceSet node.
>>> However, the surface can also be defined as multiple IndexedFaceSet nodes.
>>> It is possible that depending on the implementation of the
>>> IndexedFaceSet nodes and the configuration of the HAnim figure, multiple
>>> IndexedFaceSet nodes may provide better performance by isolating the
>>> continuous mesh changes to localized surfaces.”
>>>
>>> On Mon, Oct 30, 2023 at 11:01 PM John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Joe,
>>>>
>>>> I don’t get how your example lines up with the standard Don quoted “
>>>> The *skin* field contains one or more indexed mesh definitions. Those
>>>> indexed mesh definitions utilize the point and normal data that is defined
>>>> within the *skinCoord* and *skinNormal* fields, respectively, of the
>>>> *Humanoid* object.”
>>>>
>>>> Maybe I’m dumb?
>>>>
>>>> Can we take it down to a high school level instead of PhD?
>>>>
>>>> Look at the JoeKick link I posted separately, it follows your example.
>>>>
>>>> Maybe the standards documentation could be clearer? Maybe Don’s quote
>>>> is from somewhere else?
>>>>
>>>> AFAIK, Gramps now follows what you have below, but some versions may be
>>>> reversed as we were trying to figure it out in the Blender exporter.
>>>>
>>>> I don’t mind what is decided either way, and I would prefer your way
>>>> and x3d.py to change, if it doesn’t support that order of output. If I
>>>> seem a bit wishy-washy, it’s because I see that I am getting conflicting
>>>> information, as far as I can tell.
>>>>
>>>> We can go back to DAGs and inventing DEF/USE on the fly, but I thought
>>>> we were past that, and now we’re just trying to define order of fields,
>>>> and/or whether the verbage the standard should change.
>>>>
>>>> To me, a definition is a DEF’ed field, and a USE field references the
>>>> definition. But I haven’t read any glossaries.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks, I feel super dumb at this point.
>>>>
>>>> John
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Oct 30, 2023 at 9:50 PM Joe D Williams <joedwil at earthlink.net>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi John,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> skin [
>>>>> Shape {
>>>>> geometry IndexedFaceSet {
>>>>> coord DEF TheSkinCoord Coordinate { point [ ... ] ... } } ]
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> then
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> skinCoord USE TheSkinCoord
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> So, not
>>>>>
>>>>> > "Yes, this means skinCoord DEF comes before skin Coordinate USE,"
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> actually we want toDEF the coord Coordinate point then we can USE
>>>>> forskinCoord.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The only place I have seen these reversed is the code for Gramps you
>>>>> sent and it worked anyway.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Joe
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com>
>>>>> Sent: Oct 30, 2023 6:27 PM
>>>>> To: Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <brutzman at nps.edu>
>>>>> Cc: X3D Graphics public mailing list <x3d-public at web3d.org>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [x3d-public] What are valid children of
>>>>> HAnimHumanoid.skin?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, this means skinCoord DEF comes before skin Coordinate USE, which
>>>>> is the information I was looking for.
>>>>>
>>>>> At least this is my reading of the standard.
>>>>>
>>>>> Joe, do you concur? The next thing to do is look at what’s done in
>>>>> the archive.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>
>>>>> John
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Oct 30, 2023 at 12:04 AM Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <
>>>>> brutzman at nps.edu> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Please use latest url for X3D 4.0 Architecture:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -
>>>>>> https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4Draft/ISO-IEC19775-1v4-IS.proof/Part01/
>>>>>> -
>>>>>> https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4Draft/ISO-IEC19775-1v4-IS.proof/Part01/components/hanim.html#HAnimHumanoid
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> HAnimHumanoid : X3DChildNode, X3DBoundedObject {
>>>>>>
>>>>>> […]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> MFNode [in,out] skin [] [Group, LOD, Shape, Switch, Transform,
>>>>>> IndexedFaceSet, IndexedFanSet, IndexedLineSet, IndexedQuadSet,
>>>>>> IndexedTriangleSet, IndexedTriangleStripSet]
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Further please note that the functional descriptions are provided in
>>>>>> the HAnim 2.0 standard:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - HAnim 2.0 Part 1: Humanoid animation (HAnim) architecture, 6
>>>>>> Object interfaces, 6.2 Humanoid
>>>>>> -
>>>>>> https://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19774/V2.0/Architecture/ObjectInterfaces.html#Humanoid
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> “The *skin* field contains one or more indexed mesh definitions.
>>>>>> Those indexed mesh definitions utilize the point and normal data that is
>>>>>> defined within the *skinCoord* and *skinNormal* fields,
>>>>>> respectively, of the *Humanoid* object. This field is defined as an
>>>>>> generic type for which the specific representation is defined by each
>>>>>> binding to a presentation system. Annex C VRML binding
>>>>>> <https://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19774/V2.0/Architecture/VRMLInterface.html> contains
>>>>>> a binding for VRML. Annex D X3D binding
>>>>>> <https://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19774/V2.0/Architecture/X3DInterface.html> describes
>>>>>> the Humanoid animation component of X3D specified in ISO/IEC 19775-1
>>>>>> <https://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19774/V2.0/Architecture/bibliography.html#I19775_1>
>>>>>> .”
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> all the best, Don
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Don Brutzman Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br
>>>>>> brutzman at nps.edu
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Watkins 270, MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA
>>>>>> +1.831.656.2149
>>>>>>
>>>>>> X3D graphics, virtual worlds, navy robotics
>>>>>> https://faculty.nps.edu/brutzman
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *From:* x3d-public <x3d-public-bounces at web3d.org> *On Behalf Of *GPU
>>>>>> Group
>>>>>> *Sent:* Sunday, October 29, 2023 5:56 AM
>>>>>> *To:* John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com>
>>>>>> *Cc:* X3D Graphics public mailing list <x3d-public at web3d.org>
>>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [x3d-public] What are valid children of
>>>>>> HAnimHumanoid.skin? argument for allowing containerFields in x3d.py
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19775-1/V4.0/Part01/components/hanim.html#HAnimHumanoid
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - skin [IndexedFaceSet, X3DGroupingNode, Shape]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I haven't tried it but I don't see how freewrl could render a skin
>>>>>> with bare IFS, it needs to be wrapped in at least a Shape, and
>>>>>> HAnimHumanoid doesn't inherit from Shape
>>>>>>
>>>>>> HAnimHumanoid : X3DChildNode, X3DBoundedObject
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sun, Oct 29, 2023 at 6:45 AM GPU Group <gpugroup at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> xml with no containerField > freeWRL: Group and Transform, and today
>>>>>> I added Shape.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Basically whatever ends up in that skin field, freewrl renders as
>>>>>> normal scenegraph, so you can have a transform hierarchy of skin chunks /
>>>>>> shapes and freewrl doesn't mind. (It's the skeleton and coordinate field
>>>>>> that changes the shape of anything that uses the same coordinates, and the
>>>>>> scene author presumes there's no weird transforms between chunks, but
>>>>>> freewrl doesn't enforce that).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -Doug
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sun, Oct 29, 2023 at 4:24 AM John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> * I am specifically speaking of the lack of containerField in XML
>>>>>> output from x3d.py. I also have issues with overuse of the
>>>>>> “children”container fields in VRML. I am speaking of instances where
>>>>>> view3dscene reports an error or does not show the scene (even trying
>>>>>> tovrmlx3d would help). The problem stems from lack of testing on HAnim
>>>>>> VRML and XML outputs from x3d.py. I could show Don an example, but he’s
>>>>>> got a whole section of the archive devoted to examples which do show the
>>>>>> same behavior when tested properly.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> One cannot just type in “containerField” in a python program and
>>>>>> expect x3d.py to list it in output. I might be able to subclass, but that
>>>>>> would require my own X3dToPython.xslt stylesheet.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> * Skin/shape is another topic in the email. See standard, where
>>>>>> Shape is not mentioned under skin, rather, indexed mesh nodes are. There
>>>>>> is no children field under Shape, but there’s a skin field under
>>>>>> HAnimHumanoid. Skin has an MFNode field type, and has SFNode children,
>>>>>> AFAIK. The question is whether these children should be Shapes or indexed
>>>>>> meshes.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sat, Oct 28, 2023 at 2:16 PM Joe D Williams <joedwil at earthlink.net>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> > argument for allowing containerFields in x3d.py
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't understand. If no container fields then not able to do all of
>>>>>> x3d. We had to use containerField for the admittedly rare instance where
>>>>>> the default is not true. These are cases where looking up the
>>>>>> containerField in schema is not enough.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Some are tricky, like skeleton where only the root Joint has to have
>>>>>> the containerField as skeleton.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> skin contains a Shape which does not have children.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> However we are investigating the idea of how to code LOD choices for
>>>>>> skin. I think we already know how to do that for that for Segment geometry.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Joe
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com>
>>>>>> Sent: Oct 26, 2023 10:08 AM
>>>>>> To: Joe D Williams <joedwil at earthlink.net>, X3D Graphics public
>>>>>> mailing list <x3d-public at web3d.org>
>>>>>> Subject: What are valid children of HAnimHumanoid.skin? argument for
>>>>>> allowing containerFields in x3d.py
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> From: https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4Draft/ISO-IEC19775-1v4-DIS/Part01/components/hanim.html#HAnimHumanoid
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I see:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> MFNode [in,out] skin [] [IndexedFaceSet, IndexedFanSet, IndexedQuadSet, IndexedTriangleSet, IndexedTriangleStripSet]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And fromL https://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19774/V2.0/Architecture/ObjectInterfaces.html#Humanoid
>>>>>>
>>>>>> sequence<Object> skin [] [indexed mesh objects as defined by the representation]
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But in actual practice, I see:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <Shape DEF='Joe_Shape <https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/HumanoidAnimation/Skin/JoeKick.html#Joe_Shape>' containerField='skin'>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <Appearance DEF='Joe_skin_Appearance
>>>>>> <https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/HumanoidAnimation/Skin/JoeKick.html#Joe_skin_Appearance>'>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <Material DEF='Joe_skin_Material
>>>>>> <https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/HumanoidAnimation/Skin/JoeKick.html#Joe_skin_Material>
>>>>>> ' diffuseColor='0.3 0.3 0.6' emissiveColor='0.3 0.3 0.6'/>
>>>>>> <ImageTexture DEF='JoeSkinImageTexture
>>>>>> <https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/HumanoidAnimation/Skin/JoeKick.html#JoeSkinImageTexture>
>>>>>> '
>>>>>> url=' "JoeBodyTexture29.png
>>>>>> <https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/HumanoidAnimation/Skin/JoeBodyTexture29.png>"
>>>>>> "
>>>>>> https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/HumanoidAnimation/Characters/JoeBodyTexture29.png
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/HumanoidAnimation/Characters/JoeBodyTexture29.png>"
>>>>>> ' />
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <!-- *ROUTE* information for KickTextureTransform node: [*from*
>>>>>> SkinInterpolator.value_changed *to* rotation
>>>>>> <https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/HumanoidAnimation/Skin/JoeKick.html#ROUTE_194>]
>>>>>> -->
>>>>>> <TextureTransform DEF='KickTextureTransform
>>>>>> <https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/HumanoidAnimation/Skin/JoeKick.html#KickTextureTransform>
>>>>>> '/>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> </Appearance>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> From:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/HumanoidAnimation/Skin/JoeKickIndex.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> skin [
>>>>>>
>>>>>> DEF Joe_Shape Shape {
>>>>>>
>>>>>> appearance DEF Joe_skin_Appearance Appearance {
>>>>>>
>>>>>> material DEF Joe_skin_Material Material {
>>>>>>
>>>>>> diffuseColor 0.3 0.3 0.6
>>>>>>
>>>>>> emissiveColor 0.3 0.3 0.6
>>>>>>
>>>>>> }
>>>>>>
>>>>>> texture DEF JoeSkinImageTexture ImageTexture {
>>>>>>
>>>>>> url [ "JoeBodyTexture29.png" "
>>>>>> https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/HumanoidAnimation/Characters/JoeBodyTexture29.png"
>>>>>> ]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> }
>>>>>>
>>>>>> textureTransform DEF KickTextureTransform
>>>>>> TextureTransform {
>>>>>>
>>>>>> }
>>>>>>
>>>>>> }
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ==================================================
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So it would seem like Shapes with an Indexed geometry is what we're
>>>>>> aiming for in the standard as one of the possibly many children of the skin
>>>>>> container field (note the space).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That is all okay, AFAIAC, just extremely confusing when deciding
>>>>>> where to add containerFields in DOM documents.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For example, consider the below:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <HAnimJoint
>>>>>> USE='hanim_l_carpal_distal_interphalangeal_4'/>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <HAnimJoint USE='hanim_l_metacarpophalangeal_3'/>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <HAnimJoint
>>>>>> USE='hanim_l_carpal_proximal_interphalangeal_3'/>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <HAnimJoint
>>>>>> USE='hanim_l_carpal_distal_interphalangeal_3'/>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <HAnimJoint USE='hanim_l_metacarpophalangeal_2'/>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <HAnimJoint
>>>>>> USE='hanim_l_carpal_proximal_interphalangeal_2'/>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <HAnimJoint
>>>>>> USE='hanim_l_carpal_distal_interphalangeal_2'/>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [ etc. ]
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It may not be apparent, but X3DJSAIL complains about this. There's no
>>>>>> containerField='joints', right? But I'm generating this code using x3d.py
>>>>>> which doesn't allow me to list containerFields!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Grr! Here are some of the "brutzman" messages from X3DJSAI, which
>>>>>> are valid. I really want to assign joints as a containerField, so perhaps
>>>>>> I will just do it in X3DJSONLD.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [apply] [error] X3DLoaderDOM: Parent-child node relationship not
>>>>>> found! (parent HAnimHumanoid, child HAnimJoint, containerField='children')
>>>>>> Please report this problem to brutzman at nps.edu
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [apply] [error] X3DLoaderDOM: Parent-child node relationship not
>>>>>> found! (parent HAnimHumanoid, child HAnimJoint, containerField='children')
>>>>>> Please report this problem to brutzman at nps.edu
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [apply] [error] X3DLoaderDOM: Parent-child node relationship not
>>>>>> found! (parent HAnimHumanoid, child HAnimJoint, containerField='children')
>>>>>> Please report this problem to brutzman at nps.edu
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [apply] [error] X3DLoaderDOM: Parent-child node relationship not
>>>>>> found! (parent HAnimHumanoid, child HAnimJoint, containerField='children')
>>>>>> Please report this problem to brutzman at nps.edu
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [apply] [error] X3DLoaderDOM: Parent-child node relationship not
>>>>>> found! (parent HAnimHumanoid, child HAnimJoint, containerField='children')
>>>>>> Please report this problem to brutzman at nps.edu
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [apply] [error] X3DLoaderDOM: Parent-child node relationship not
>>>>>> found! (parent HAnimHumanoid, child HAnimJoint, containerField='children')
>>>>>> Please report this problem to brutzman at nps.edu
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [apply] [error] X3DLoaderDOM: Parent-child node relationship not
>>>>>> found! (parent HAnimHumanoid, child HAnimJoint, containerField='children')
>>>>>> Please report this problem to brutzman at nps.edu
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [apply] [error] X3DLoaderDOM: Parent-child node relationship not
>>>>>> found! (parent HAnimHumanoid, child HAnimJoint, containerField='children')
>>>>>> Please report this problem to brutzman at nps.edu
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> x3d-public mailing list
>>>>>> x3d-public at web3d.org
>>>>>> http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>> http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org
>>
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