[x3d-public] audio and timesensor synchronization; event-graph routing chains documentation now available
John Carlson
yottzumm at gmail.com
Wed Sep 6 08:45:58 PDT 2023
Wow, Don!
Impressive!
Can you do something similar for HAnim Joint/Segment hierarchies? Would an
SVG/X3D diagram be better? Maybe use D3.js and render the HTML to a
static page?
Again, I am super impressed! I’m just struggling with reading HTML table
into a default table model in Java.
John
On Wed, Sep 6, 2023 at 8:42 AM Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <
brutzman at nps.edu> wrote:
> Appreciate the continuing in-depth analysis, very helpful. Consistent
> authoring and presentation of timing in X3D models is essentially important.
>
>
>
> Suggest that we continue to look at useful examples and best practices. I
> can keep updating tooltips as appropriate, also various diagnostics. X3D
> Architecture specification is quite detailed.
>
>
>
> - https://www.web3d.org/x3d/tooltips/X3dTooltips.html#TimeSensor
> -
> https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4Draft/ISO-IEC19775-1v4-IS.proof/Part01/components/time.html#Concepts
> -
> https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4Draft/ISO-IEC19775-1v4-IS.proof/Part01/components/time.html#TimeSensor
>
>
>
> To help in this endeavor, am happy to report that we now have improved
> support in X3D pretty-print documentation (X3dToXhtml.xslt stylesheet) to
> show event-graph routing chains.
>
>
>
> Some simple examples:
>
>
>
> - X3D Example Archives: X3D4WA, X3D for Web Authors, Chapter 07 Event
> Animation Interpolation, Hello X3D Authors Animation Chain
> -
> https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/X3dForWebAuthors/Chapter07EventAnimationInterpolation/HelloX3dAuthorsAnimationChainIndex.html
> -
> https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/X3dForWebAuthors/Chapter07EventAnimationInterpolation/HelloX3dAuthorsAnimationChain.html#EventGraph
>
>
>
> - X3D Example Archives: X3D4WA, X3D for Web Authors, Chapter 07 Event
> Animation Interpolation, Color Interpolator Example
> -
> https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/X3dForWebAuthors/Chapter07EventAnimationInterpolation/ColorInterpolatorExampleIndex.html
> -
> https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/X3dForWebAuthors/Chapter07EventAnimationInterpolation/ColorInterpolatorExample.html#EventGraph
>
>
>
> Complicated example:
>
>
>
> - X3D Example Archives: X3D4WA, X3D for Web Authors, Chapter 07 Event
> Animation Interpolation, Time Sensor Chaining
> -
> https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/X3dForWebAuthors/Chapter07EventAnimationInterpolation/TimeSensorChainingIndex.html
> -
> https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/X3dForWebAuthors/Chapter07EventAnimationInterpolation/TimeSensorChaining.html#EventGraph
> - The door opens OK but does not again shut satisfactorily, not yet
> sure why…
>
>
>
> Some HAnim examples:
>
>
>
> - X3D Example Archives: Humanoid Animation, Winter And Spring, Gramps
> Box Timer Only
> -
> https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/HumanoidAnimation/WinterAndSpring/GrampsBoxTimerOnlyIndex.html
> -
> https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/HumanoidAnimation/WinterAndSpring/GrampsBoxTimerOnly.html#EventGraph
> -
> https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/HumanoidAnimation/WinterAndSpring/GrampsBoxTimerOnlyEventGraphRouteTable.png
> (attached)
>
>
>
> - X3D Example Archives: Humanoid Animation, Motion Animation, Pirouette
> -
> https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/HumanoidAnimation/MotionAnimation/PirouetteIndex.html
> -
> https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/HumanoidAnimation/MotionAnimation/Pirouette.html#EventGraph
>
>
>
> Looking forward to steadily improving adeptness and design patterns. Have
> fun with X3D animation! 8)
>
>
>
> all the best, Don
>
> --
>
> Don Brutzman Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br
> brutzman at nps.edu
>
> Watkins 270, MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA
> +1.831.656.2149
>
> X3D graphics, virtual worlds, navy robotics
> https://faculty.nps.edu/brutzman
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: x3d-public <x3d-public-bounces at web3d.org> On Behalf Of Michalis
> Kamburelis
> Sent: Tuesday, September 5, 2023 9:42 AM
> To: Joe D Williams <joedwil at earthlink.net>
> Cc: x3d-public at web3d.org
> Subject: Re: [x3d-public] audio and timesensor synchronization
>
>
>
> 1. Looking at your attached example code (thanks!) you have a ROUTE from
> "TimeSensor.fraction_changed" -> interpolators, but you never start the
> TimeSensor. That is, nothing ROUTEs to "TimeSensor.startTime".
>
>
>
> You instead rely that TimeSensor initially runs automatically because
> it has loop=TRUE.
>
>
>
> And yes, in this case the TimeSensor will run, but it *does not* start
> from zero. That is, the initial "TimeSensor.fraction_changed"
>
> will not be zero. Instead, the TimeSensor behaves as if it started at time
> = 0, which means that it started at "epoch" (1st January 1970).
>
> Long long time ago, yeah. The initial "TimeSensor.fraction_changed" is
> calculated based on this assumption.
>
>
>
> Whatever you do -- any loading, reloading (even loading a completely
> unrelated scene in the meantime) keeps this "global time"
>
> ticking.
>
>
>
> This is indeed a bit weird. I agree with your surprise, I had this
> surprise many years ago. It caused me to write this old article on
>
> https://castle-engine.io/x3d_time_origin_considered_uncomfortable.php
> (warning: really old article).
>
>
>
> But the X3D decision was dictated by the desire to support networking
> and multi-user worlds. For this, using a "global time"
>
> (seconds from 1st January 1970) seemed better. And the "startTime" and
> "fraction_changed" mechanisms are I guess now too late to change.
>
>
>
> 2. The immediate solution (this is also what I heard some years ago when
> talking about this) is to make sure you start your TimeSensor(s).
>
>
>
> Simplest way to start something when world loads is to use
> ProximitySensor with ridiculous size (so that it for sure includes initial
> viewpoint) and ROUTE from ProximitySensor.enterTime to TimeSensor.startTime.
>
>
>
> Like
>
>
>
> """
>
> DEF MyTimeSensor TimeSensor { }
>
> DEF MyProximitySensor ProximitySensor {
>
> size 1000000 1000000 1000000
>
> }
>
> ROUTE MyProximitySensor.enterTime TO MyTimeSensor.startTime
>
> """
>
>
>
> 3. From what I know, AD 1 and AD 2 are the way X3D works.
>
>
>
> Comments / tests on other X3D browsers are welcome. If there's a
> better advise than AD 2, if the browsers should do something else, I'm all
> ears. For now, we follow X3D spec as we have to, from what I know.
>
>
>
> 4. To be clear, we really don't do anything like "the tool saves last
> TimeSensor fraction before Reopen" as you mention.
>
>
>
> We have no way to do this. The previous nodes are destroyed (when
> doing "Open" or "Reopen"), nothing gets saves.
>
>
>
> But the "global time since epoch" keeps ticking, which explains what
> you experience.
>
>
>
> 5. Fair point that "preserving the camera" during "File -> Reopen" is
> problematic if the camera was under the animation. Maybe we should have
> separate "File -> Reopen (Reset Camera)" and "File -> Reopen (Preserve
> Camera)" in the future.
>
>
>
> For now, just use "File -> Open" then.
>
>
>
> "File -> Reopen" is just a convenience feature, to reload the file but
> keep looking at the same thing.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Michalis
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> wt., 5 wrz 2023 o 04:20 Joe D Williams <joedwil at earthlink.net> napisał(a):
>
> >
>
> > - save the current camera (position, direction, up)
>
> > - save the navigation type
>
> > - open the file just like opening it using "File -> Open" would do
>
> > - sets the camera to saved position, direction, up
>
> > - sets the navigation type to saved type.
>
> >
>
> > Hey, maybe that is the way it is supposed to work, but what happens when
> you want all that back to the real start at load? if the camera was
> animated by being child of an animated thing, it is dropped where it was
> when unbound at Open or Reopen. So, if reopen or open, why not put the
> camera where the author puts it at open, well first open in his case.
>
> >
>
> > > Reopening doesn't do anything special with regards to animations or
> time.
>
> >
>
> > Well, it certainly doesn't start TimeSensor where the author defined
> them to start, that is scene time 0.
>
> > It remembers old TimeSensor fraction and reopens the animation from
> where it was when Reopen happened. So, nothing special, just won't let me
> restart from TimeSensor 0.
>
> >
>
> > So, for scene time, open and reopen both reset indicated World Time
> since load and remembers and sets TimeSensor fraction to when Open or
> Reopen stopped TimeSensor by the action.
>
> > So, looks like the tool saves last TimeSensor fraction before Reopen
>
> > then I don't know for certain, but TimeSensor starts where it left off,
> even after Open.
>
> > ReOpen, ok, I can see where you might want to save some state as author
> convenience, but tool doesn't allow me to actually restart the scene from
> initial load state.
>
> >
>
> > How can I tell the tool that hey don't remember if this scene, or
> similar, has ever been loaded before, Forget all that partial state from
> last time and start from author-defined initial state as written in the
> user code.
>
> >
>
> > This pain really shows when authoring a scene with animations that want
> to be in sync with an audioclip.
>
> > Can't work on the thing because a Open or Reopen only affects the audio
> startTime and the TimeSensor startTime carries on from where it left off
> last.
>
> >
>
> > > I don't know exactly how you run your animation,
>
> >
>
> > From a TimeSensor fraction_changed into Interpolator(s).
>
> > From what I showed, when the audio begins,I send audio StartTime to
> TmeSensor startTime and isActive to enabled. it begins to play audio and
> animation.
>
> > The animation cycle time is slightly less than the audio time time so I
> want the animation to complete and not repeat, then the audio to end and
> not repeat.
>
> > All that basically works ok, unless the tool happens to recall where
> this or a similar file has been Opened by it. If not first Open, or if
> Reopen, the audio starts fine, but the TimeSensor is off in memorylands,
> having started from where it was last running.
>
> >
>
> > Try and see, even some simple TimeSensor example like attached. After
> the first Open, I bet you can't get it to start from 0 again.
>
> >
>
> > > Time origin" of X3D spec. It may make some things weird,
>
> >
>
> > Yes, SFTIme can be absolute or relative or an interval
>
> >
>
> > Anyway,is it a bug, or how it is supposed to work? I say for the Open,
> it ought to be purely what the author gives as initial state. For Reopen,
> if the tool wants to retain some state, then ok, but for time, I have a
> question if for Open#1 World Time since load is very close if not the same
> as Scene Time.
>
> > But for open#2 or Reopen, World Time since load gets reset to 0 but
> Scene Time is most likely very different., in fact, the same as left off by
> Reopen.
>
> >
>
> > Thanks for thinking about this. Simple example attached. Open it,let it
> run for a while, then Reopen or Open. It opens with a viewpoint child of
> the thing that is moving so the viewpoint movement shows as the model moves.
>
> >
>
> > When it starts to run, the Scene Time at Reopen will be Scene Time when
> you initiated the Reopen or Open. The camera assignment provided by the
> author for initial viewpoint is ignored and this viewpoint is left
> floating, suddenly parentless, apparently. Page Down recaptures the
> viewpoint so you can see the camera location change.
>
> >
>
> > Thanks,
>
> > Joe
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > f behin
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Original Message-----
>
> > From: Michalis Kamburelis <michalis.kambi at gmail.com>
>
> > Sent: Sep 4, 2023 2:56 PM
>
> > To: Joe D Williams <joedwil at earthlink.net>
>
> > Cc: <x3d-public at web3d.org>
>
> > Subject: Re: [x3d-public] audio and timesensor synchronization
>
> >
>
> > I understand that by "Reopen" you refer to view3dscene "File ->
>
> > Reopen"? To be clear, all it does is
>
> >
>
> > - save the current camera (position, direction, up)
>
> > - save the navigation type
>
> > - open the file just like opening it using "File -> Open" would do
>
> > - sets the camera to saved position, direction, up
>
> > - sets the navigation type to saved type.
>
> >
>
> > Reopening doesn't do anything special with regards to animations or time.
>
> >
>
> > If you believe it does have a bug, please submit a simple testcase to
>
> > show the problem -- a complete X3D file that I can load in view3dscene
>
> > and see the problem will be appreciated.
>
> >
>
> > Note that VRML and X3D internally use absolute time (seconds since
>
> > January 1, 1970) in SFTime. See "8.2.2 Time origin" of X3D spec. It
>
> > may make some things weird, but following the spec -- for good or bad.
>
> > But I speculate, I don't know exactly how you run your animation, I
>
> > need more information than above.
>
> >
>
> > A proper usage is certainly possible, such that each opening of the
>
> > file runs the animation correctly from start. If you ROUTE to
>
> > TimeSensor.startTime values e.g. from ProximitySensor.enterTime or
>
> > TouchSensor.touchTime, it will behave as expected.
>
> >
>
> > Regards,
>
> > Michalis
>
> >
>
> > pon., 4 wrz 2023 o 22:01 Joe D Williams napisał(a):
>
> > >
>
> > > Hi All,
>
> > > I have a scene with AudioClip and TimeSensor animations.When Open, if
> same file then, same as Reopen, the audio restarts, but the animation time
> sensor (after instantaneous reset to 0) restarts where it left off, rather
> than actually restarting. This leaves the sound and animations out of synch
> and so useless. Really appears like my timer is running with WorldTime when
> it is turned off then gets reset using relative to World Time when reopen
> or open.
>
> > >
>
> > > I thought I should have the answer to this by starting the animation
> timers under control of the audio startTime. Just don't start animation
> timers until audio starts then all should synch.
>
> > >
>
> > > So, I can understand some caretaking like this when the author is
> reloading to fix some stuff and just wants to proceed rather than start an
> animation over from the beginning, but it seems to me that the author also
> ought to have the keys to get a complete restart from the beginning.
>
> > >
>
> > > So, in this case, I really do want to be able to keep this audio in
> sync with the animation. When I do tell the animation timer to start with
> the audio, I want to be able to depend on that rather than the tool taking
> over and deciding what to do with regard to the TimeSensor timing depending
> upon the last time I did Open or Reopen with the same or similar file. In
> this case the Audio startTime sent to the animation timer is not being
> honored.
>
> > >
>
> > > This is how it is coded:
>
> > >
>
> > > enabled='false' loop='true'/>
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > > loop='true' enabled='true'
>
> > > url='"wrv2_103seconds.wav"'/>
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > > toField='set_startTime' toNode='GBTimer'/> toField='set_enabled'
>
> > > toNode='GrampsBoxTimer'/>
>
> > >
>
> > > Is the basics. When the audio starts, then the animation timer starts.
> But I also want to stop the animation at the last frame when it ends,
> instead of repeating the animation. There must be a better way, but I am
> using:
>
> > >
>
> > > key='0 0.9 1' keyValue='true false false'/> toField='set_fraction'
>
> > > toNode='GBTimerLoopControl'/> toField='loop' toNode='GBTimer'/>
>
> > >
>
> > > Which turns off the animation timer after one cycle.
>
> > >
>
> > > Sending the loop false twice seems necessary since if sent only at
> fraction time 1 it lets animation timer move to start and actually send 0
> fraction instead of ending at last frame. I think the loop true/false
> should be evaluated before start is set, not set start then check loop,
> Loop false at tic fraction 1 should not allow the timer to proceed to 0. If
> loop is false at load,then start is not sent.
>
> > >
>
> > > And I also want the AudioClip to stop after one play with no repeat so
> I did this:
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > > Since the animation timer ends its cycle a few seconds before the
> audioclip, (100 seconds vs 103 seconds) this should also keep the audioclip
> from looping. Unfortunately,it does not and the audio continues until it is
> stopped by unknown, Seems like loop false recognized some time later than
> needed to stop the audio at its end. as the audio plays. By changing the
> animation timer cycletime I see the loop false is recognized at some time
> which seems related to when I send the audio loop false and that I might be
> able to with luck pick a lucky time that matches the stop time I need.
>
> > >
>
> > > So, please help me figure out how to control this thing the way I need
> to.
>
> > >
>
> > > Thanks All,
>
> > > Joe
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > > .
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > > _______________________________________________
>
> > > x3d-public mailing list
>
> > > x3d-public at web3d.org
>
> > > http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org
>
> >
>
> >
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> x3d-public mailing list
>
> x3d-public at web3d.org
>
> http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org
> _______________________________________________
> x3d-public mailing list
> x3d-public at web3d.org
> http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://web3d.org/pipermail/x3d-public_web3d.org/attachments/20230906/2d1fc138/attachment-0001.html>
More information about the x3d-public
mailing list