[x3d-public] audio and timesensor synchronization; event-graph routing chains documentation now available
John Carlson
yottzumm at gmail.com
Wed Sep 6 15:36:28 PDT 2023
I had thought of a tables based approach for hierarchies a long time ago,
but never quite had the bright idea of how to do it. I'm glad you
succeeded.
Another way to handle event cycles is to provide a "cycle explorer," with
separate web pages. I've done that HTML visualization of cyclic data
structures in a repository program. Maybe one could do some HTML trickery
(anchors?) to keep it all on one page!
We know one can use D3.js with X3D already! I've not tried X_ITE's DOM
interface yet.
John
Meanwhile, I'm working on high-level animation in Java, see image
attached! Just saw first light!
[image: image.png]
On Wed, Sep 6, 2023 at 3:39 PM Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <
brutzman at nps.edu> wrote:
> Glad you like it, thanks John.
>
> Yes, I had similarly thought of creating using SVG or D3, which was a high
> burden of programming stability/interoperability/maintainability over
> time. Thus it never got done.
>
> Last weekend woke up to realize a tables-based approach was possible using
> plain old HTML. Yes tricky to sort out but you only have to get it right
> once.
>
> XSLT is further tricky (unless simple) since declarative, it is a
> different way of thinking about data structures that is well suited for
> hierarchal XML trees (like an X3D model). Am currently working on halting
> (i.e. not infinite looping) if ROUTE loops are present - am thinking that a
> limit on linking depth no greater that total number of ROUTE statements is
> sensible. Interesting problem.
>
> For HAnimJoint/HAnimSegment hierarchies, there is already a “visualization
> report” that Joe Williams and I worked hard to develop. Definitely
> useful. There are also styleheets to add (or subtract) representative
> Shape geometry from a skeleton. Examples:
>
> - X3D Examples, Humanoid Animation
> - https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/HumanoidAnimation/
> -
> https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/HumanoidAnimation/MotionAnimation/Pirouette.html#ROOT_hipHAnimHumanoidReport
> - Be sure to scroll down past plain-text tree to colorized report
>
> Have fun exploring X3D Examples Documentation! 8)
>
> all the best, Don
>
> --
>
> Don Brutzman Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br
> brutzman at nps.edu
>
> Watkins 270, MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA
> +1.831.656.2149
> X3D graphics, virtual worlds, Navy robotics
> https://faculty.nps.edu/brutzman
> ------------------------------
> *From:* John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, September 6, 2023 8:46 AM
> *To:* Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <brutzman at nps.edu>
> *Cc:* Joe D Williams <joedwil at earthlink.net>; Michalis Kamburelis <
> michalis.kambi at gmail.com>; x3d-public at web3d.org <x3d-public at web3d.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [x3d-public] audio and timesensor synchronization;
> event-graph routing chains documentation now available
>
> Wow, Don!
>
> Impressive!
>
> Can you do something similar for HAnim Joint/Segment hierarchies? Would
> an SVG/X3D diagram be better? Maybe use D3.js and render the HTML to a
> static page?
>
> Again, I am super impressed! I’m just struggling with reading HTML table
> into a default table model in Java.
>
> John
>
> On Wed, Sep 6, 2023 at 8:42 AM Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <
> brutzman at nps.edu> wrote:
>
>> Appreciate the continuing in-depth analysis, very helpful. Consistent
>> authoring and presentation of timing in X3D models is essentially important.
>>
>>
>>
>> Suggest that we continue to look at useful examples and best practices.
>> I can keep updating tooltips as appropriate, also various diagnostics. X3D
>> Architecture specification is quite detailed.
>>
>>
>>
>> - https://www.web3d.org/x3d/tooltips/X3dTooltips.html#TimeSensor
>> -
>> https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4Draft/ISO-IEC19775-1v4-IS.proof/Part01/components/time.html#Concepts
>> -
>> https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4Draft/ISO-IEC19775-1v4-IS.proof/Part01/components/time.html#TimeSensor
>>
>>
>>
>> To help in this endeavor, am happy to report that we now have improved
>> support in X3D pretty-print documentation (X3dToXhtml.xslt stylesheet) to
>> show event-graph routing chains.
>>
>>
>>
>> Some simple examples:
>>
>>
>>
>> - X3D Example Archives: X3D4WA, X3D for Web Authors, Chapter 07 Event
>> Animation Interpolation, Hello X3D Authors Animation Chain
>> -
>> https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/X3dForWebAuthors/Chapter07EventAnimationInterpolation/HelloX3dAuthorsAnimationChainIndex.html
>> -
>> https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/X3dForWebAuthors/Chapter07EventAnimationInterpolation/HelloX3dAuthorsAnimationChain.html#EventGraph
>>
>>
>>
>> - X3D Example Archives: X3D4WA, X3D for Web Authors, Chapter 07 Event
>> Animation Interpolation, Color Interpolator Example
>> -
>> https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/X3dForWebAuthors/Chapter07EventAnimationInterpolation/ColorInterpolatorExampleIndex.html
>> -
>> https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/X3dForWebAuthors/Chapter07EventAnimationInterpolation/ColorInterpolatorExample.html#EventGraph
>>
>>
>>
>> Complicated example:
>>
>>
>>
>> - X3D Example Archives: X3D4WA, X3D for Web Authors, Chapter 07 Event
>> Animation Interpolation, Time Sensor Chaining
>> -
>> https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/X3dForWebAuthors/Chapter07EventAnimationInterpolation/TimeSensorChainingIndex.html
>> -
>> https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/X3dForWebAuthors/Chapter07EventAnimationInterpolation/TimeSensorChaining.html#EventGraph
>> - The door opens OK but does not again shut satisfactorily, not yet
>> sure why…
>>
>>
>>
>> Some HAnim examples:
>>
>>
>>
>> - X3D Example Archives: Humanoid Animation, Winter And Spring, Gramps
>> Box Timer Only
>> -
>> https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/HumanoidAnimation/WinterAndSpring/GrampsBoxTimerOnlyIndex.html
>> -
>> https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/HumanoidAnimation/WinterAndSpring/GrampsBoxTimerOnly.html#EventGraph
>> -
>> https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/HumanoidAnimation/WinterAndSpring/GrampsBoxTimerOnlyEventGraphRouteTable.png
>> (attached)
>>
>>
>>
>> - X3D Example Archives: Humanoid Animation, Motion Animation,
>> Pirouette
>> -
>> https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/HumanoidAnimation/MotionAnimation/PirouetteIndex.html
>> -
>> https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/HumanoidAnimation/MotionAnimation/Pirouette.html#EventGraph
>>
>>
>>
>> Looking forward to steadily improving adeptness and design patterns.
>> Have fun with X3D animation! 8)
>>
>>
>>
>> all the best, Don
>>
>> --
>>
>> Don Brutzman Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br
>> brutzman at nps.edu
>>
>> Watkins 270, MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA
>> +1.831.656.2149
>>
>> X3D graphics, virtual worlds, navy robotics
>> https://faculty.nps.edu/brutzman
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: x3d-public <x3d-public-bounces at web3d.org> On Behalf Of Michalis
>> Kamburelis
>> Sent: Tuesday, September 5, 2023 9:42 AM
>> To: Joe D Williams <joedwil at earthlink.net>
>> Cc: x3d-public at web3d.org
>> Subject: Re: [x3d-public] audio and timesensor synchronization
>>
>>
>>
>> 1. Looking at your attached example code (thanks!) you have a ROUTE from
>> "TimeSensor.fraction_changed" -> interpolators, but you never start the
>> TimeSensor. That is, nothing ROUTEs to "TimeSensor.startTime".
>>
>>
>>
>> You instead rely that TimeSensor initially runs automatically because
>> it has loop=TRUE.
>>
>>
>>
>> And yes, in this case the TimeSensor will run, but it *does not*
>> start from zero. That is, the initial "TimeSensor.fraction_changed"
>>
>> will not be zero. Instead, the TimeSensor behaves as if it started at
>> time = 0, which means that it started at "epoch" (1st January 1970).
>>
>> Long long time ago, yeah. The initial "TimeSensor.fraction_changed" is
>> calculated based on this assumption.
>>
>>
>>
>> Whatever you do -- any loading, reloading (even loading a completely
>> unrelated scene in the meantime) keeps this "global time"
>>
>> ticking.
>>
>>
>>
>> This is indeed a bit weird. I agree with your surprise, I had this
>> surprise many years ago. It caused me to write this old article on
>>
>> https://castle-engine.io/x3d_time_origin_considered_uncomfortable.php
>> (warning: really old article).
>>
>>
>>
>> But the X3D decision was dictated by the desire to support networking
>> and multi-user worlds. For this, using a "global time"
>>
>> (seconds from 1st January 1970) seemed better. And the "startTime" and
>> "fraction_changed" mechanisms are I guess now too late to change.
>>
>>
>>
>> 2. The immediate solution (this is also what I heard some years ago when
>> talking about this) is to make sure you start your TimeSensor(s).
>>
>>
>>
>> Simplest way to start something when world loads is to use
>> ProximitySensor with ridiculous size (so that it for sure includes initial
>> viewpoint) and ROUTE from ProximitySensor.enterTime to TimeSensor.startTime.
>>
>>
>>
>> Like
>>
>>
>>
>> """
>>
>> DEF MyTimeSensor TimeSensor { }
>>
>> DEF MyProximitySensor ProximitySensor {
>>
>> size 1000000 1000000 1000000
>>
>> }
>>
>> ROUTE MyProximitySensor.enterTime TO MyTimeSensor.startTime
>>
>> """
>>
>>
>>
>> 3. From what I know, AD 1 and AD 2 are the way X3D works.
>>
>>
>>
>> Comments / tests on other X3D browsers are welcome. If there's a
>> better advise than AD 2, if the browsers should do something else, I'm all
>> ears. For now, we follow X3D spec as we have to, from what I know.
>>
>>
>>
>> 4. To be clear, we really don't do anything like "the tool saves last
>> TimeSensor fraction before Reopen" as you mention.
>>
>>
>>
>> We have no way to do this. The previous nodes are destroyed (when
>> doing "Open" or "Reopen"), nothing gets saves.
>>
>>
>>
>> But the "global time since epoch" keeps ticking, which explains what
>> you experience.
>>
>>
>>
>> 5. Fair point that "preserving the camera" during "File -> Reopen" is
>> problematic if the camera was under the animation. Maybe we should have
>> separate "File -> Reopen (Reset Camera)" and "File -> Reopen (Preserve
>> Camera)" in the future.
>>
>>
>>
>> For now, just use "File -> Open" then.
>>
>>
>>
>> "File -> Reopen" is just a convenience feature, to reload the file
>> but keep looking at the same thing.
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Michalis
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> wt., 5 wrz 2023 o 04:20 Joe D Williams <joedwil at earthlink.net>
>> napisał(a):
>>
>> >
>>
>> > - save the current camera (position, direction, up)
>>
>> > - save the navigation type
>>
>> > - open the file just like opening it using "File -> Open" would do
>>
>> > - sets the camera to saved position, direction, up
>>
>> > - sets the navigation type to saved type.
>>
>> >
>>
>> > Hey, maybe that is the way it is supposed to work, but what happens
>> when you want all that back to the real start at load? if the camera was
>> animated by being child of an animated thing, it is dropped where it was
>> when unbound at Open or Reopen. So, if reopen or open, why not put the
>> camera where the author puts it at open, well first open in his case.
>>
>> >
>>
>> > > Reopening doesn't do anything special with regards to animations or
>> time.
>>
>> >
>>
>> > Well, it certainly doesn't start TimeSensor where the author defined
>> them to start, that is scene time 0.
>>
>> > It remembers old TimeSensor fraction and reopens the animation from
>> where it was when Reopen happened. So, nothing special, just won't let me
>> restart from TimeSensor 0.
>>
>> >
>>
>> > So, for scene time, open and reopen both reset indicated World Time
>> since load and remembers and sets TimeSensor fraction to when Open or
>> Reopen stopped TimeSensor by the action.
>>
>> > So, looks like the tool saves last TimeSensor fraction before Reopen
>>
>> > then I don't know for certain, but TimeSensor starts where it left off,
>> even after Open.
>>
>> > ReOpen, ok, I can see where you might want to save some state as author
>> convenience, but tool doesn't allow me to actually restart the scene from
>> initial load state.
>>
>> >
>>
>> > How can I tell the tool that hey don't remember if this scene, or
>> similar, has ever been loaded before, Forget all that partial state from
>> last time and start from author-defined initial state as written in the
>> user code.
>>
>> >
>>
>> > This pain really shows when authoring a scene with animations that want
>> to be in sync with an audioclip.
>>
>> > Can't work on the thing because a Open or Reopen only affects the audio
>> startTime and the TimeSensor startTime carries on from where it left off
>> last.
>>
>> >
>>
>> > > I don't know exactly how you run your animation,
>>
>> >
>>
>> > From a TimeSensor fraction_changed into Interpolator(s).
>>
>> > From what I showed, when the audio begins,I send audio StartTime to
>> TmeSensor startTime and isActive to enabled. it begins to play audio and
>> animation.
>>
>> > The animation cycle time is slightly less than the audio time time so I
>> want the animation to complete and not repeat, then the audio to end and
>> not repeat.
>>
>> > All that basically works ok, unless the tool happens to recall where
>> this or a similar file has been Opened by it. If not first Open, or if
>> Reopen, the audio starts fine, but the TimeSensor is off in memorylands,
>> having started from where it was last running.
>>
>> >
>>
>> > Try and see, even some simple TimeSensor example like attached. After
>> the first Open, I bet you can't get it to start from 0 again.
>>
>> >
>>
>> > > Time origin" of X3D spec. It may make some things weird,
>>
>> >
>>
>> > Yes, SFTIme can be absolute or relative or an interval
>>
>> >
>>
>> > Anyway,is it a bug, or how it is supposed to work? I say for the Open,
>> it ought to be purely what the author gives as initial state. For Reopen,
>> if the tool wants to retain some state, then ok, but for time, I have a
>> question if for Open#1 World Time since load is very close if not the same
>> as Scene Time.
>>
>> > But for open#2 or Reopen, World Time since load gets reset to 0 but
>> Scene Time is most likely very different., in fact, the same as left off by
>> Reopen.
>>
>> >
>>
>> > Thanks for thinking about this. Simple example attached. Open it,let it
>> run for a while, then Reopen or Open. It opens with a viewpoint child of
>> the thing that is moving so the viewpoint movement shows as the model moves.
>>
>> >
>>
>> > When it starts to run, the Scene Time at Reopen will be Scene Time when
>> you initiated the Reopen or Open. The camera assignment provided by the
>> author for initial viewpoint is ignored and this viewpoint is left
>> floating, suddenly parentless, apparently. Page Down recaptures the
>> viewpoint so you can see the camera location change.
>>
>> >
>>
>> > Thanks,
>>
>> > Joe
>>
>> >
>>
>> >
>>
>> > f behin
>>
>> >
>>
>> >
>>
>> > Original Message-----
>>
>> > From: Michalis Kamburelis <michalis.kambi at gmail.com>
>>
>> > Sent: Sep 4, 2023 2:56 PM
>>
>> > To: Joe D Williams <joedwil at earthlink.net>
>>
>> > Cc: <x3d-public at web3d.org>
>>
>> > Subject: Re: [x3d-public] audio and timesensor synchronization
>>
>> >
>>
>> > I understand that by "Reopen" you refer to view3dscene "File ->
>>
>> > Reopen"? To be clear, all it does is
>>
>> >
>>
>> > - save the current camera (position, direction, up)
>>
>> > - save the navigation type
>>
>> > - open the file just like opening it using "File -> Open" would do
>>
>> > - sets the camera to saved position, direction, up
>>
>> > - sets the navigation type to saved type.
>>
>> >
>>
>> > Reopening doesn't do anything special with regards to animations or
>> time.
>>
>> >
>>
>> > If you believe it does have a bug, please submit a simple testcase to
>>
>> > show the problem -- a complete X3D file that I can load in view3dscene
>>
>> > and see the problem will be appreciated.
>>
>> >
>>
>> > Note that VRML and X3D internally use absolute time (seconds since
>>
>> > January 1, 1970) in SFTime. See "8.2.2 Time origin" of X3D spec. It
>>
>> > may make some things weird, but following the spec -- for good or bad.
>>
>> > But I speculate, I don't know exactly how you run your animation, I
>>
>> > need more information than above.
>>
>> >
>>
>> > A proper usage is certainly possible, such that each opening of the
>>
>> > file runs the animation correctly from start. If you ROUTE to
>>
>> > TimeSensor.startTime values e.g. from ProximitySensor.enterTime or
>>
>> > TouchSensor.touchTime, it will behave as expected.
>>
>> >
>>
>> > Regards,
>>
>> > Michalis
>>
>> >
>>
>> > pon., 4 wrz 2023 o 22:01 Joe D Williams napisał(a):
>>
>> > >
>>
>> > > Hi All,
>>
>> > > I have a scene with AudioClip and TimeSensor animations.When Open, if
>> same file then, same as Reopen, the audio restarts, but the animation time
>> sensor (after instantaneous reset to 0) restarts where it left off, rather
>> than actually restarting. This leaves the sound and animations out of synch
>> and so useless. Really appears like my timer is running with WorldTime when
>> it is turned off then gets reset using relative to World Time when reopen
>> or open.
>>
>> > >
>>
>> > > I thought I should have the answer to this by starting the animation
>> timers under control of the audio startTime. Just don't start animation
>> timers until audio starts then all should synch.
>>
>> > >
>>
>> > > So, I can understand some caretaking like this when the author is
>> reloading to fix some stuff and just wants to proceed rather than start an
>> animation over from the beginning, but it seems to me that the author also
>> ought to have the keys to get a complete restart from the beginning.
>>
>> > >
>>
>> > > So, in this case, I really do want to be able to keep this audio in
>> sync with the animation. When I do tell the animation timer to start with
>> the audio, I want to be able to depend on that rather than the tool taking
>> over and deciding what to do with regard to the TimeSensor timing depending
>> upon the last time I did Open or Reopen with the same or similar file. In
>> this case the Audio startTime sent to the animation timer is not being
>> honored.
>>
>> > >
>>
>> > > This is how it is coded:
>>
>> > >
>>
>> > > enabled='false' loop='true'/>
>>
>> > >
>>
>> > >
>>
>> > > loop='true' enabled='true'
>>
>> > > url='"wrv2_103seconds.wav"'/>
>>
>> > >
>>
>> > >
>>
>> > >
>>
>> > >
>>
>> > >
>>
>> > > toField='set_startTime' toNode='GBTimer'/> toField='set_enabled'
>>
>> > > toNode='GrampsBoxTimer'/>
>>
>> > >
>>
>> > > Is the basics. When the audio starts, then the animation timer
>> starts. But I also want to stop the animation at the last frame when it
>> ends, instead of repeating the animation. There must be a better way, but I
>> am using:
>>
>> > >
>>
>> > > key='0 0.9 1' keyValue='true false false'/> toField='set_fraction'
>>
>> > > toNode='GBTimerLoopControl'/> toField='loop' toNode='GBTimer'/>
>>
>> > >
>>
>> > > Which turns off the animation timer after one cycle.
>>
>> > >
>>
>> > > Sending the loop false twice seems necessary since if sent only at
>> fraction time 1 it lets animation timer move to start and actually send 0
>> fraction instead of ending at last frame. I think the loop true/false
>> should be evaluated before start is set, not set start then check loop,
>> Loop false at tic fraction 1 should not allow the timer to proceed to 0. If
>> loop is false at load,then start is not sent.
>>
>> > >
>>
>> > > And I also want the AudioClip to stop after one play with no repeat
>> so I did this:
>>
>> > >
>>
>> > >
>>
>> > >
>>
>> > > Since the animation timer ends its cycle a few seconds before the
>> audioclip, (100 seconds vs 103 seconds) this should also keep the audioclip
>> from looping. Unfortunately,it does not and the audio continues until it is
>> stopped by unknown, Seems like loop false recognized some time later than
>> needed to stop the audio at its end. as the audio plays. By changing the
>> animation timer cycletime I see the loop false is recognized at some time
>> which seems related to when I send the audio loop false and that I might be
>> able to with luck pick a lucky time that matches the stop time I need.
>>
>> > >
>>
>> > > So, please help me figure out how to control this thing the way I
>> need to.
>>
>> > >
>>
>> > > Thanks All,
>>
>> > > Joe
>>
>> > >
>>
>> > >
>>
>> > >
>>
>> > >
>>
>> > >
>>
>> > >
>>
>> > >
>>
>> > >
>>
>> > >
>>
>> > >
>>
>> > >
>>
>> > > .
>>
>> > >
>>
>> > >
>>
>> > >
>>
>> > > _______________________________________________
>>
>> > > x3d-public mailing list
>>
>> > > x3d-public at web3d.org
>>
>> > > http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org
>>
>> >
>>
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> x3d-public mailing list
>>
>> x3d-public at web3d.org
>>
>> http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org
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>>
>
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