[x3d-public] HAnimDisplacer effect on coord.point
John Carlson
yottzumm at gmail.com
Thu Feb 20 09:17:27 PST 2025
Try java SDK jar program?
John
On Thu, Feb 20, 2025 at 7:19 AM Holger Seelig via x3d-public <
x3d-public at web3d.org> wrote:
> For some reason I cannot open those *.zip files from you John. My system
> say „Unknown file format“.
>
> Best regards,
> Holger
>
> --
> Holger Seelig
> Leipzig, Germany
>
> holger.seelig at yahoo.de
> https://create3000.github.io/x_ite/
>
> Am 20.02.2025 um 00:24 schrieb John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com>:
>
> Attached is an example with a Hud. I can't get the menu (with the Hud
> ProximitySensor and Transforms) to move differently than Jin, so I'm kind
> of stuck.
>
> There's probably some silly problem that I missed. The menus move
> with the mouse.
>
> Thanks for looking,
>
> John
>
> On Tue, Feb 18, 2025 at 6:49 PM John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Thanks for code samples, Joe. It looks like I can take out my
>> Layering/Layout code and just focus on the menu. Sorry I am so slow on
>> this, I think I might be hibernating.
>>
>> I’m looking at my GitHub commits and they have dropped drastically. This
>> might be because I am spending more time helping others with recovery or
>> just using social media too much.
>>
>> I will try to get to the HUD in the next two days. It was so cold, we
>> didn’t even go to the dentist 45 miles away. We got out today though.
>>
>> John
>>
>> On Tue, Feb 18, 2025 at 6:38 PM Joe D Williams <joedwil at earthlink.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> > a HUD for Joe
>>>
>>>
>>> A hud for the FACS example is needed because any navigation causes the
>>> menu to disappear. The menu can be just like used on the Jin scaled with
>>> animation example. However that uses a ProximitySensor which x3dom does not
>>> support, for some reason. We use that a lot for start timers, timers,
>>> etc.as well as being the typical way to keep a menu or scene data in
>>> view.
>>> If HTML/SVG is better, I have not seen it. I don't think Stacking
>>> canvas is appropriate. Fine to think of XR for in-world 2d or3d HUDS but
>>> does that sort ofdisplay really work any different than using prox sensor?
>>> ProximitySensor is just so basic.
>>>
>>>
>>> <ProximitySensor DEF='HudProx' size='50 50 50'/>
>>> <Transform DEF='HudXform' rotation='0 1 0 0.78' translation='2 1
>>> 2'>
>>> <Transform DEF='Menu' scale='0.02 0.02 0.02' translation='-0.38
>>> 0.05 -0.75'>
>>> rest of menu
>>> <ROUTE fromField='position_changed' fromNode='HudProx'
>>> toField='set_translation' toNode='HudXform'/>
>>> <ROUTE fromField='orientation_changed' fromNode='HudProx'
>>> toField='set_rotation' toNode='HudXform'/>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks and Best,
>>> Joe
>>>
>>>
>>> huds3d
>>> XR
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Andreas Plesch <andreasplesch at gmail.com>
>>> Sent: Feb 18, 2025 11:45 AM
>>> To: John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com>
>>> Cc: Extensible 3D (X3D) Graphics public discussion <x3d-public at web3d.org>,
>>> Holger Seelig <holger.seelig at yahoo.de>, Joseph D Williams <
>>> joedwil at earthlink.net>, Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <brutzman at nps.edu>,
>>> Carol McDonald <cemd2 at comcast.net>
>>> Subject: Re: [x3d-public] HAnimDisplacer effect on coord.point
>>>
>>>
>>> Please do not wait for x3dom. Both ProximitySensor and the Layering
>>> component are lower priority. HTML/SVG is better suited for 2D HUDs and
>>> layering can be approximated by stacking multiple X3D canvases/scenes. You
>>> may also consider XR where immersion typically strongly favors in-world 3d
>>> HUDs.
>>>
>>> Best, -Andreas
>>>
>>> On Tue, Feb 18, 2025 at 2:25 PM John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Don, we’re currently working on a HUD for Joe, I don’t currently have
>>>> an online example of that.
>>>>
>>>> Otherwise, I’m waiting on someone deciding which meshes to merge. I
>>>> could take the lead on this.
>>>>
>>>> I could use a tutorial on the Layering and Layout components, examples
>>>> don’t seem to help. I may try to adopt a 3D HUD based on examples.
>>>> Something with the 2D overlay in WORLD space would help tremendously, or
>>>> some conversion from WORLD space.
>>>>
>>>> We already have 3D menus, so a 3D HUD might be easiest.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>
>>>> John
>>>> On Mon, Feb 17, 2025 at 11:18 PM Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) via
>>>> x3d-public <x3d-public at web3d.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Wondering, do we have a simple excerpted example that we can look at
>>>>> yet? That will help guide these discussions.
>>>>>
>>>>> Don't need a full human body animation in all its displaceable glory...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> all the best, Don
>>>>> --
>>>>> Don Brutzman Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br
>>>>> brutzman at nps.edu
>>>>> Watkins 270, MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA
>>>>> +1.831.656.2149
>>>>> X3D graphics, virtual worlds, navy robotics
>>>>> https://faculty.nps.edu/brutzman
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>> *From:* x3d-public <x3d-public-bounces at web3d.org> on behalf of Joe D
>>>>> Williams via x3d-public <x3d-public at web3d.org>
>>>>> *Sent:* Saturday, February 15, 2025 6:55 PM
>>>>> *To:* Holger Seelig <holger.seelig at yahoo.de>; Andreas Plesch <
>>>>> andreasplesch at gmail.com>
>>>>> *Cc:* joedwil at earthlink.net <joedwil at earthlink.net>; X3D <
>>>>> x3d-public at web3d.org>; Carol McDonald <cemd2 at comcast.net>
>>>>>
>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [x3d-public] HAnimDisplacer effect on coord.point
>>>>>
>>>>> > coord.point changes are very very expensive quickly,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Right, the processing time gets expensive as the number of points
>>>>> moved.
>>>>> If level 1 segment geometry where the mesh is driven directly by a
>>>>> joint, then it easier since weight is always 1.
>>>>> For level 2 skin, the the weight (radial movement) applied by maybe
>>>>> multiple joints needs to be computed for each point.
>>>>> Finally, for both levels, the displacements for selected set of points
>>>>> needs to be applied.
>>>>> This implies multiple passes on the subject coordinates?
>>>>> Whatever, these operations are common where the applications deal with
>>>>> a complete mesh and with sparse points of a mesh for blending. .
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> > with reference to CoordinateInterpolator,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> These are useful when controlling all points of a target mesh.
>>>>> All points of a mesh must be included and same number of points at
>>>>> each keyframe.
>>>>> This style was used in first step of the current example x3d FACS
>>>>> because
>>>>> face geometry is made from multiple shapes. CoordinateInterpolater
>>>>> sets
>>>>> for each shape for each elemental action moved the points.
>>>>> This was simplified to using the same face for each action example
>>>>> and then replaced the CIs with sets of Displacers.
>>>>> Now have developed further to combine individual actions to make a
>>>>> specific expression which consists of multiple elemental movements.
>>>>> However, I think we want to evolve towards a basic single mesh face
>>>>> with some individual shapes for like teeth, hair, eyeballs, eyelids,
>>>>> tongue, maybe ears?
>>>>> and using joint nodes to control, where appropriate.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Regardless of how the points are moved for the next frame, it has to
>>>>> be
>>>>> considered that geometry points will be moved directly by joint
>>>>> rotations,
>>>>> by a weighting algorithm using multiple joint rotation inputs,
>>>>> and by one or more scalar-driven Displacer inputs.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for HAnim,
>>>>> Joe
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Message-----
>>>>> From: Holger Seelig <holger.seelig at yahoo.de>
>>>>> Sent: Feb 9, 2025 11:23 AM
>>>>> To: Andreas Plesch <andreasplesch at gmail.com>
>>>>> Cc: X3D <x3d-public at web3d.org>, Joseph D Williams <
>>>>> joedwil at earthlink.net>, Carol McDonald <cemd2 at comcast.net>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [x3d-public] HAnimDisplacer effect on coord.point
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't think so, coord.point changes are very very expensive quickly,
>>>>> and as Michalis said earlier, with reference to CoordinateInterpolator, we
>>>>> should get rid of them.
>>>>>
>>>>> Holger
>>>>> --
>>>>> Holger Seelig
>>>>> Leipzig, Germany
>>>>>
>>>>> holger.seelig at yahoo.de
>>>>> https://create3000.github.io/x_ite/
>>>>>
>>>>> Am 09.02.2025 um 19:44 schrieb Andreas Plesch <andreasplesch at gmail.com
>>>>> >:
>>>>> Yes, that is an option. However,coord.point changes are very very
>>>>> expensive quickly, and as Michalis said earlier, with reference to
>>>>> CoordinateInterpolator, we should get rid of them.
>>>>>
>>>>> Andreas
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, Feb 9, 2025, 1:40 PM Holger Seelig <holger.seelig at yahoo.de>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> X_ITE applies the HAnimDisplacers in the shader, thus no coord.point
>>>>> field has to be changed.
>>>>> Maybe that helps.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>> Holger
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Holger Seelig
>>>>> Leipzig, Germany
>>>>>
>>>>> holger.seelig at yahoo.de
>>>>> https://create3000.github.io/x_ite/
>>>>>
>>>>> Am 09.02.2025 um 19:33 schrieb Andreas Plesch via x3d-public <
>>>>> x3d-public at web3d.org>:
>>>>>
>>>>> That would be the point field of a Coordinate node
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4/ISO-IEC19775-1v4-IS/Part01/components/rendering.html#Coordinate
>>>>>
>>>>> which is used by the coord field of
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4/ISO-IEC19775-1v4-IS/Part01/components/hanim.html#HAnimSegment
>>>>>
>>>>> Andreas
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, Feb 9, 2025, 12:36 PM Joe D Williams <joedwil at earthlink.net>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> > coord node emit a point_changed event
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> sorry,I don't see a field anywhere with that event. Displacer is
>>>>> likely to change several points when new weight is sent. All part of the
>>>>> cascade to produce the changed mesh?
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Joe
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Andreas Plesch <andreasplesch at gmail.com>
>>>>> Sent: Feb 9, 2025 4:25 AM
>>>>> To: Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <brutzman at nps.edu>
>>>>> Cc: Extensible 3D (X3D) Graphics public discussion <
>>>>> x3d-public at web3d.org>, Carol McDonald <cemd2 at comcast.net>, Joe D
>>>>> Williams <joedwil at earthlink.net>, John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [x3d-public] HAnimDisplacer effect on coord.point
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Don, Joe and John
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for collecting these references.
>>>>>
>>>>> But I am not sure if there is an answer to my original question. Let
>>>>> me rephrase a bit the question:
>>>>>
>>>>> After a Displacer contained in a Segment node receives a set_weight
>>>>> input, should then the coord node emit a point_changed event ?
>>>>>
>>>>> I do not think HAnim is concerned about that, so it is really a X3D
>>>>> question.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks, Andreas
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, Feb 9, 2025, 12:49 AM Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <
>>>>> brutzman at nps.edu> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for pointing in the right direction John.
>>>>>
>>>>> Direct links to functional requirements for Displacer in HAnim 2.0
>>>>> specification:
>>>>>
>>>>> - HAnim 2.0. Part 1: Humanoid animation (HAnim) architecture,
>>>>> Clause 4 Concepts, 4.7 Displacer object
>>>>> -
>>>>> https://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19774/V2.0/Architecture/concepts.html#DisplacerObject
>>>>>
>>>>> - HAnim 2.0. Part 1: Humanoid animation (HAnim) architecture,
>>>>> Clause 6 Object interfaces, 6.6 Displacer
>>>>> -
>>>>> https://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19774/V2.0/Architecture/ObjectInterfaces.html#Displacer
>>>>>
>>>>> and
>>>>>
>>>>> - X3D 4.0 Architecture, Clause 26 Humanoid Animation (HAnim)
>>>>> component, 26.3.1 HAnimDisplacer
>>>>> -
>>>>> https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4/ISO-IEC19775-1v4-IS/Part01/components/hanim.html#HAnimDisplacer
>>>>>
>>>>> and informative
>>>>>
>>>>> - X3D Tooltips, HAnimDisplacer
>>>>> - https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/X3dTooltips.html#HAnimDisplacer
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for implementation efforts and careful scrutiny.
>>>>>
>>>>> Questions and potential issues/clarifications/corrections are always
>>>>> welcome.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> all the best, Don
>>>>> --
>>>>> Don Brutzman Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br
>>>>> brutzman at nps.edu
>>>>> Watkins 270, MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA
>>>>> +1.831.656.2149
>>>>> X3D graphics, virtual worlds, navy robotics
>>>>> https://faculty.nps.edu/brutzman
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>> *From:* x3d-public <x3d-public-bounces at web3d.org> on behalf of John
>>>>> Carlson via x3d-public <x3d-public at web3d.org>
>>>>> *Sent:* Saturday, February 8, 2025 3:43 AM
>>>>> *To:* Extensible 3D (X3D) Graphics public discussion <
>>>>> x3d-public at web3d.org>; Carol McDonald <cemd2 at comcast.net>; Joe D
>>>>> Williams <joedwil at earthlink.net>
>>>>> *Cc:* John Carlson <yottzumm at gmail.com>; Andreas Plesch <
>>>>> andreasplesch at gmail.com>
>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [x3d-public] HAnimDisplacer effect on coord.point
>>>>>
>>>>> Here’s what HAnim spec says under Displacer:
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19774/V2.0/index.html
>>>>>
>>>>> “For the *Displacer* objects that are contained in the *displacers* field
>>>>> of the *Segment* objects, the *displacements* are defined and applied
>>>>> in the *Segment* coordinate system. The base mesh for the morphed
>>>>> *Segment* is the original mesh defined in the *Segment*.”
>>>>>
>>>>> And here’s what it says under Segment:
>>>>>
>>>>> “
>>>>>
>>>>> The *coord* field is used for *Segment* objects that have deformable
>>>>> meshes and shall contain coordinates referenced from the indexed mesh for
>>>>> the *Segment* object. The coordinates are given the same name as the
>>>>> *Segment* object, but with a "_coords" appended (e.g.,"skull_coords"
>>>>> ).”
>>>>> displacements are an offset from the mesh, with weight from 0 to 1.
>>>>> So weight times displacement is total offset from base mesh. 0 weight = no
>>>>> offset, 1 weight = full displacements offset
>>>>>
>>>>> The Coordinate point is maintained to handle weight = 0. Weight
>>>>> ranges from 0 to 1, but double check.
>>>>>
>>>>> Joe or Carol might know where to find it in the HAnim spec.
>>>>>
>>>>> I believe the answer is, “during rendering,”. Since weight can vary
>>>>> with animation, and so can displacements, AFAIK. More than one displacer
>>>>> can be applied to the mesh.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have not read the spec.
>>>>>
>>>>> John
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, Feb 8, 2025 at 5:13 AM Andreas Plesch via x3d-public <
>>>>> x3d-public at web3d.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19775-1/V4.0/Part01/components/hanim.html#HAnimDisplacer
>>>>>
>>>>> does not directly explain what the effect of the displacer on the
>>>>> coord.point field of the containing HAnimSegment is. But it mentions the
>>>>> coord.point field and seems to imply that the coord.point field is involved.
>>>>>
>>>>> So the question is if the Displacer should alter the coord.point field
>>>>> in order to achieve a graphical displacement, or if the Browser should only
>>>>> apply the displacements during rendering without a change in the
>>>>> coord.point field ?
>>>>>
>>>>> This is relevant if the coord.point field is accessed by routes or
>>>>> scripts, in addition to displacers.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for any feedback or ideas,
>>>>>
>>>>> Andreas
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Andreas Plesch
>>>>> Waltham, MA 02453
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> x3d-public mailing list
>>>>> x3d-public at web3d.org
>>>>> http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> x3d-public mailing list
>>>>> x3d-public at web3d.org
>>>>> http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> x3d-public mailing list
>>>>> x3d-public at web3d.org
>>>>> http://web3d.org/mailman/listinfo/x3d-public_web3d.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Andreas Plesch
>>> Waltham, MA 02453
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> <Clocks6.zip>
>
>
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