<div dir="auto">It appears like I’ve copied some development Camera Protos from the Basic development examples.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">I’m guessing these cases are moving a viewpoint or viewport around, instead of rendering the view onto a texture.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">The good news is, i have Windows 10, and i should be able to run BS Contact.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">John</div><div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, Sep 25, 2022 at 1:56 PM John Carlson <<a href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com">yottzumm@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)"><div dir="auto">A while ago, I attempted to put a MovieTexture onto Sphere geometry. It used the BigBuckBunny movie/trailer. I guess the thing i am looking for is a live camera view (webcam, window snaps, or inworld view) stuck onto a texture.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">So probably it would be nice to have events for interpolating camera position for the inworld camera.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">I am unfamiliar with the Camera node, and will have to check examples.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">John</div><div dir="auto"><br><div class="gmail_quote" dir="auto"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, Sep 25, 2022 at 1:24 PM GL <<a href="mailto:info@3dnetproductions.com" target="_blank">info@3dnetproductions.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)">
<div lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(31,73,125)">John, BS
Contact comes with a proto called 'CompositeTexture3D' (see nodes.wrl) which we
have used extensively to create camera effects. You simply indicate the
position,</span> <span style="font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(31,73,125)">fieldOfView and
orientation of the source 'camera' and then it would allow the live display of what
it sees on an inworld screen at the original location.<u style="font-family:Consolas"></u><u style="font-family:Consolas"></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u style="font-family:Consolas"></u> <u style="font-family:Consolas"></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(31,73,125)">texture DEF
Scene CompositeTexture3D {}<u style="font-family:Consolas"></u><u style="font-family:Consolas"></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u style="font-family:Consolas"></u> <u style="font-family:Consolas"></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(31,73,125)">I recall
having issues with it at about the same time when Flash movies support was withdrawn
in some browsers. Not sure if it was related or what the status of this feature
is today, but hopefully that's something for you to look at, because we used to
be able to do exactly that what you describe.<u style="font-family:Consolas"></u><u style="font-family:Consolas"></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u style="font-family:Consolas"></u> <u style="font-family:Consolas"></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Gina Lauren
<u style="font-family:Consolas"></u><u style="font-family:Consolas"></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u style="font-family:Consolas"></u> <u style="font-family:Consolas"></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Simplified Arabic Fixed";color:rgb(31,73,125)">________________________________________________________<u style="font-family:"Simplified Arabic Fixed""></u><u style="font-family:"Simplified Arabic Fixed""></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Simplified Arabic Fixed";color:rgb(31,73,125)">* * * Interactive Multimedia - Internet Management * * *<u style="font-family:"Simplified Arabic Fixed""></u><u style="font-family:"Simplified Arabic Fixed""></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Simplified Arabic Fixed";color:rgb(31,73,125)"> * * Virtual Reality -- Application Programming * *<u style="font-family:"Simplified Arabic Fixed""></u><u style="font-family:"Simplified Arabic Fixed""></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Simplified Arabic Fixed";color:rgb(31,73,125)"> * 3D Net Productions <a href="http://3dnetproductions.com" style="font-family:"Simplified Arabic Fixed"" target="_blank">3dnetproductions.com</a> *<u style="font-family:"Simplified Arabic Fixed""></u><u style="font-family:"Simplified Arabic Fixed""></u></span></p></div></div><div lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple"><div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u style="font-family:Consolas"></u> <u style="font-family:Consolas"></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u style="font-family:Consolas"></u> <u style="font-family:Consolas"></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u style="font-family:Consolas"></u> <u style="font-family:Consolas"></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u style="font-family:Consolas"></u> <u style="font-family:Consolas"></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u style="font-family:Consolas"></u> <u style="font-family:Consolas"></u></span></p>
<div style="border-style:none none none solid;border-left-width:1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4pt;border-left-color:blue">
<div>
<div style="border-style:solid none none;border-top-width:1pt;padding:3pt 0in 0in;border-top-color:rgb(181,196,223)">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif"> x3d-public
[mailto:<a href="mailto:x3d-public-bounces@web3d.org" style="font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif" target="_blank">x3d-public-bounces@web3d.org</a>] <b style="font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">On Behalf Of </b>John Carlson<br>
<b style="font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">Sent:</b> Saturday, September 24, 2022 8:46 PM<br>
<b style="font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">To:</b> Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV)<br>
<b style="font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">Cc:</b> X3D Public Mailing List (<a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org" style="font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif" target="_blank">x3d-public@web3d.org</a>)<br>
<b style="font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">Subject:</b> Re: [x3d-public] X3D Working Group meeting 23 SEP 2022: Mantis
issues review SvgTexture, X3D Application Stack<u style="font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif"></u><u style="font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif"></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Understood. I thought i made it clear that there’s no
“feedback (infinite) loop” in X3D3 that allows behavior not unlike playing Sims
1 inside Sims 2. I am more trying to incorporate textures from other
running applications, similar to what Zoom, etc. do.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Ideally, one could see through a “magic mirror” or “portal”
(Croquet) from one Scene to an independent scene. Similar to a
hyperjump, but the target scene is “live” in the source scene. Feel free
to replace scene with virtual world.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">The reason to go through a MovieTexture instead of only an
Inline is for security purposes and to stop infinite propagation, especially of
audio. There would probably be a requirement to disallow intersecting
textures.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Red-pill warning.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">One could consider dragging a Stargate through a
Stargate. What happens when i have a virtual world in my inventory (an
inline, for example)?<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">One might consider viewing XMLSpy inside the Metaverse.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I believe this kind of stuff is called “embedding” as
popularized by Office.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">So things like audio feedback should definitely be
disallowed for X3D4.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Sat, Sep 24, 2022 at 6:44 PM Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV)
<<a href="mailto:brutzman@nps.edu" target="_blank">brutzman@nps.edu</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border-style:none none none solid;border-left-width:1pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Please
be advised that X3D absolutely allows loading more X3D within a parent X3D
model via the Inline node.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Also
worthy of note is that recursive reloading is expressly forbidden wherever it
might occur, in order to preclude infinite loops and security flaws.<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New""> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New"">all the best, Don</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New"">-- </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New"">Don Brutzman Naval
Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br <a href="mailto:brutzman@nps.edu" style="font-family:"Courier New"" target="_blank">brutzman@nps.edu</a></span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New"">Watkins 270, MOVES
Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA +1.831.656.2149</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New"">X3D graphics, virtual
worlds, Navy robotics https://</span> <span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New""><a href="http://faculty.nps.edu/brutzman" style="font-family:"Courier New"" target="_blank">faculty.nps.edu/brutzman</a></span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div style="border-style:solid none none;border-top-width:1pt;padding:3pt 0in 0in;border-top-color:rgb(225,225,225)">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b>
John Carlson <<a href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com" target="_blank">yottzumm@gmail.com</a>>
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, September 24, 2022 12:08 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <<a href="mailto:brutzman@nps.edu" target="_blank">brutzman@nps.edu</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> GPU Group <<a href="mailto:gpugroup@gmail.com" target="_blank">gpugroup@gmail.com</a>>;
X3D Public Mailing List (<a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org" target="_blank">x3d-public@web3d.org</a>)
<<a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org" target="_blank">x3d-public@web3d.org</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [x3d-public] X3D Working Group meeting 23 SEP 2022: Mantis
issues review SvgTexture, X3D Application Stack<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<div style="border:1pt solid rgb(0,70,121);padding:2pt">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:12pt;background-color:rgb(0,70,121)"><span style="font-size:10pt;color:yellow">NPS WARNING: *external sender* verify before acting.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Agreed
on most points. SVG renders to an image or canvas, so I’m guessing that
one can capture image frames to place in a MovieTexture.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I
recognized that X3D does not provide X3D in X3D. I understand that one
may wish to avoid feedback loops. Many tools successfully handle them.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">HTML5
also avoids HTML5 in HTML5, AFAIK.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">There
are probably workarounds!<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I
guess I’m just seeking a way to include external application’s windows
(read-only) within X3D.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Say
a use case or user story is capturing a Java/Swing application window for
inclusion in a MovieTexture. I create a static movie texture in X3D.
I’m asking for a dynamic movie texture (live), similar to WebRTC.
Since the web already supports live video, i suggest someone (me or Christoph
Valentin) look into how webapps do it.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">John<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On
Sat, Sep 24, 2022 at 1:00 PM Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <<a href="mailto:brutzman@nps.edu" target="_blank">brutzman@nps.edu</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border-style:none none none solid;border-left-width:1pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Hi
Doug. Regarding WebAssembly, I think it fits as one of many many
technologies available to Web authors, represented in the <i>X3D Application
Stack – Layers and Alternatives</i> diagram in the row <i>Programming
Libraries, Web authoring tools and 3D translators</i>.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal"><a href="https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwebassembly.org%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cbrutzman%40nps.edu%7C7b39d12b82984d1d2ad108da9e6019d9%7C6d936231a51740ea9199f7578963378e%7C0%7C0%7C637996432852179194%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=LslKNB5PeJpKExq6%2B%2B5tbiZg%2F6xw92C1wrqGqep%2BrVw%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank">https://webassembly.org</a><u></u><u></u></li>
</ul>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Hi
John. glTF is a format for 3D models, and that is why you find multiple
ways to use glTF2 as a 3D model in the X3D Specification. glTF itself is
not suitable as any kind of format to provide an image texture.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<ol start="1" type="1">
<li class="MsoNormal"><b>First: glTF models can be loaded via Inline</b><u></u><u></u></li>
</ol>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.75in"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Symbol">·</span><span style="font-size:7pt"> </span>X3D Part 1:
Architecture and base components, 9 Networking component, 9.4.2 Inline<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.75in"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Symbol">·</span><span style="font-size:7pt"> </span><a href="https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4Draft/ISO-IEC19775-1v4-DIS/Part01/components/networking.html#Inline" target="_blank">https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4Draft/ISO-IEC19775-1v4-DIS/Part01/components/networking.html#Inline</a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"><i>The run-time system can support any number of 3D model
resource types as long as those follow the abstract model definition (see
2.[RFC2077]), provide a registered content type ( e.g., model/x3d-xml,
model/gltf-bin, model/stl, etc.), and can be determined with some form of
content negotiation (see 2.[RFC2616]). The run-time system must support at
least one X3D type ( e.g., model/x3d-xml) but can also support and negotiate
any number of X3D encodings and (optionally) non-X3D representation formats.
Support for loading glTF assets (see 2.[GLTF]) also requires support for Shape
component level 2 and Lighting component level 4.</i><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.75in"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Symbol">·</span><span style="font-size:7pt"> </span>Table 9.3 — Networking
component support levels<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.75in"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Symbol">·</span><span style="font-size:7pt"> </span><a href="https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4Draft/ISO-IEC19775-1v4-DIS/Part01/components/networking.html#t-supportLevels" target="_blank">https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4Draft/ISO-IEC19775-1v4-DIS/Part01/components/networking.html#t-supportLevels</a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.75in"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Symbol">·</span><span style="font-size:7pt"> </span>Level 5, Model support<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in;background-color:white"><i><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:black">Support for glTF models
in Inline nodes, in .gltf (</span></i><i><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black">model/gltf+json</span></i><i><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:black">) and
.glb (</span></i><i><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black">model/gltf-binary</span></i><i><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:black">) formats.</span></i><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in;background-color:white"><i><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:black">Requires support for Shape component level
2 and Lighting component level 3.</span></i><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in;background-color:white"><i><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:black">Minimum required glTF support:</span></i><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top:3pt;margin-left:0.75in;background-color:white"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black">o</span><span style="font-size:7pt;color:black">
</span><i><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:black">transformation hierarchy,</span></i><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top:3pt;margin-left:0.75in;background-color:white"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black">o</span><span style="font-size:7pt;color:black">
</span><i><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:black">meshes,</span></i><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top:3pt;margin-left:0.75in;background-color:white"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black">o</span><span style="font-size:7pt;color:black">
</span><i><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:black">physical materials,</span></i><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top:3pt;margin-left:0.75in;background-color:white"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black">o</span><span style="font-size:7pt;color:black">
</span><i><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:black">loading of external binary data referenced from .gltf files
( e.g., for vertex coordinates).</span></i><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote style="border-style:none none none solid;border-left-width:1pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<ol start="2" type="1">
<li class="MsoNormal"><b>Second: glTF2 rendering techniques are fully
integrated into native X3D4 lighting and rendering models, thus
encouraging compatible modeling and conversion of glTF models in X3D</b>.<u></u><u></u></li>
</ol>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.75in"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Symbol">·</span><span style="font-size:7pt"> </span>X3D Part 1:
Architecture and base components, 12 Shape component, 12.4.6 PhysicalMaterial<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.75in"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Symbol">·</span><span style="font-size:7pt"> </span><a href="https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4Draft/ISO-IEC19775-1v4-DIS/Part01/components/shape.html#PhysicalMaterial" target="_blank">https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4Draft/ISO-IEC19775-1v4-DIS/Part01/components/shape.html#PhysicalMaterial</a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"><i>The PhysicalMaterial node specifies surface material
properties for associated geometry nodes. It indicates that a physical lighting
model should be used for the computation. 17 Lighting component contains a
detailed description of the X3D lighting model equations.</i><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"><i> </i><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"><i>Physical interpretation of the material parameters
follows. These parameter descriptions closely follow the glTF specification
(see [glTF]).</i><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"><i> </i><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"><i>NOTE The physical material properties of X3D
are also deliberately consistent with the glTF 2.0 material definition.
Effectively, converting (in either direction) between X3D PhysicalMaterial and
glTF 2.0 material definitions is equivalent.</i><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.75in"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Symbol">·</span><span style="font-size:7pt"> </span>also 12.4.10
UnlitMaterial<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.75in"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Symbol">·</span><span style="font-size:7pt"> </span><a href="https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4Draft/ISO-IEC19775-1v4-DIS/Part01/components/shape.html#UnlitMaterial" target="_blank">https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3Dv4Draft/ISO-IEC19775-1v4-DIS/Part01/components/shape.html#UnlitMaterial</a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Also
please be aware that we are not pursuing a specific design for SvgTexture or
related new-node possibilities at this time. Rather we are performing our
“final final” review of X3D4 issues in Mantis. Thaat issue asks whether
SVG ought to be included among allowed url file types for ImageTexture.
Currently the rationale appears to be no, continuing comment welcome. The
X3D Working Group will finalize resolution of Web3D Consortium comments on X3D4
Draft International Standard Ballot on Friday October 7.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.75in"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Symbol">·</span><span style="font-size:7pt"> </span>Mantis 1400: add
Scalable Vector Graphics (SVG) to recommended image formats for ImageTexture<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.75in"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Symbol">·</span><span style="font-size:7pt"> </span><a href="https://www.web3d.org/member-only/mantis/view.php?id=1400" target="_blank">https://www.web3d.org/member-only/mantis/view.php?id=1400</a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">More
documentation about glTF and X3D correspondences is found in recent
spreadsheet-comparison efforts by X3D Working Group. I have moved both of
these documents from other locations into our central Web3D sourceforge
repository.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.75in"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Symbol">·</span><span style="font-size:7pt"> </span>X3D Application Stack -
Layers and Alternatives<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.75in"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Symbol">·</span><span style="font-size:7pt"> </span><a href="https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3dApplicationStackLayersAlternatives.png" target="_blank">https://www.web3d.org/specifications/X3dApplicationStackLayersAlternatives.png</a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.75in"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Symbol">·</span><span style="font-size:7pt"> </span>Features Comparison
X3D4 glTF2 spreadsheet<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.75in"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Symbol">·</span><span style="font-size:7pt"> </span><a href="https://www.web3d.org/specifications/FeaturesComparisonX3D4glTF2.pdf" target="_blank">https://www.web3d.org/specifications/FeaturesComparisonX3D4glTF2.pdf</a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">and
now highlighted at<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.75in"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Symbol">·</span><span style="font-size:7pt"> </span>X3D Specifications:
Schema and DOCTYPE Validation<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.75in"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Symbol">·</span><span style="font-size:7pt"> </span><a href="https://www.web3d.org/specifications" target="_blank">https://www.web3d.org/specifications</a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Ongoing
scrutiny and insights are always welcome. Have fun building X3D
Applications! 8)<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New""> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New"">all the best, Don</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New"">-- </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New"">Don Brutzman Naval
Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br <a href="mailto:brutzman@nps.edu" style="font-family:"Courier New"" target="_blank">brutzman@nps.edu</a></span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New"">Watkins 270, MOVES
Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA +1.831.656.2149</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New"">X3D graphics, virtual
worlds, Navy robotics https://</span> <span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New""><a href="http://faculty.nps.edu/brutzman" style="font-family:"Courier New"" target="_blank">faculty.nps.edu/brutzman</a></span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div style="border-style:solid none none;border-top-width:1pt;padding:3pt 0in 0in;border-top-color:rgb(225,225,225)">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b>
John Carlson <<a href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com" target="_blank">yottzumm@gmail.com</a>>
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, September 24, 2022 8:41 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <<a href="mailto:brutzman@nps.edu" target="_blank">brutzman@nps.edu</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [x3d-public] X3D Working Group meeting 23 SEP 2022: Mantis
issues review, SvgTexture<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Perhaps
we should generalize to GraphicsTexture and include glTF in the FULL profile,
and SVG in a simpler profile.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">At
this point, it seems like Inline would be a required child of GraphicsTexture,
with animation, encoding and navigation options.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I
realize I should be checking the ticket and standard.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Yes,
I recognize “portals” from Squeak here. Seeing into another scene.
I think Anchors are okay here. There’s no HTML5 within HTML5, so there’s
no precedent.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">John<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On
Sat, Sep 24, 2022 at 9:55 AM Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <<a href="mailto:brutzman@nps.edu" target="_blank">brutzman@nps.edu</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">John,
there is a bit more in the issue and the references.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">SVG
produces animatable interactive 2D images through vector graphics. So it
has characteristics of both ImageTexture and MovieTexture (and interpolators
and scriptable event models).<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Dick’s
point yesterday was that implementing such a combination is different and
bigger than ImageTexture or MovieTexture. The ways that an author might
use an SVG model are similar, but when you think of how a browser might do it
and then add computation, user interaction, security, etc. etc. then the design
perspective is quite different. This leads us to the tried-and-true approach
of implementing and testing further, most likely as a new node.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">So
I think that is an interesting and important justification that he made.
We offer it back to the group for review and discussion – thanks for your
points.<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New"">all the best, Don</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New"">-- </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New"">Don Brutzman Naval
Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br <a href="mailto:brutzman@nps.edu" style="font-family:"Courier New"" target="_blank">brutzman@nps.edu</a></span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New"">Watkins 270, MOVES
Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA +1.831.656.2149</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New"">X3D graphics, virtual
worlds, Navy robotics https://</span> <span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New""><a href="http://faculty.nps.edu/brutzman" style="font-family:"Courier New"" target="_blank">faculty.nps.edu/brutzman</a></span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div style="border-style:solid none none;border-top-width:1pt;padding:3pt 0in 0in;border-top-color:rgb(225,225,225)">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b>
John Carlson <<a href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com" target="_blank">yottzumm@gmail.com</a>>
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, September 23, 2022 5:33 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <<a href="mailto:brutzman@nps.edu" target="_blank">brutzman@nps.edu</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> X3D Public Mailing List (<a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org" target="_blank">x3d-public@web3d.org</a>) <<a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org" target="_blank">x3d-public@web3d.org</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [x3d-public] X3D Working Group meeting 23 SEP 2022: Mantis
issues review, ballot deadlines, X3D Application Stack Layer Examples diagram<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Recommendation:
SvgTexture should be a single frame MovieTexture for now, with possible
extensions to animation with ROUTEs and ECMAscript, if animation is enabled on
SvgTexture node. I don’t know if MovieTexture enables/disables animation,
but my guess is, yes.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Disabling/enabling
animation of SVGs should be in more inclusive profiles.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Is
that simple enough?<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On
Fri, Sep 23, 2022 at 7:23 PM John Carlson <<a href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com" target="_blank">yottzumm@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Consider:
SVG is a manipulation language for inserting 2D graphics into a scene.
Definition languages are more closely related to schemas, or possibly
for manipulating schema. After insertion into a scene, ECMAscript is
typically used for manipulation. ROUTEs should be allowed to as well.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">SVGs
should be considered animations with popular packages being D3.js.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Otherwise,
SVG is a declarative language, similar to X3D and HTML. Last I
heard, there was no official schema for SVG.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">If
the SVG is animated by ECMAscript, wouldn’t it more properly be used to texture
surfaces and volumes with a MovieTexture? Are MovieTextures 2D or 3D?
What textures are used for VolumeRendering?<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On
Fri, Sep 23, 2022 at 1:44 PM Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <<a href="mailto:brutzman@nps.edu" target="_blank">brutzman@nps.edu</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style="border-style:none none solid;border-bottom-width:1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 1pt;border-bottom-color:windowtext">
<p class="MsoNormal">Attendees:
Dick Puk, Don Brutzman<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">1.
We first reviewed the two recently posted Mantis issues regarding SVG and
QIF. We also looked at a Mantis issue posted earlier this year relating
to scalable composition of really large X3D worlds. Selected details
follow.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<ol start="1" type="a">
<li class="MsoNormal">Mantis <span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(243,243,243);color:black">1400: add Scalable Vector
Graphics (SVG) to recommended image formats for ImageTexture</span><u></u><u></u></li>
</ol>
<p><a href="https://www.web3d.org/member-only/mantis/view.php?id=1400" target="_blank">https://www.web3d.org/member-only/mantis/view.php?id=1400</a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.25in"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(243,243,243);color:black">SVG references:</span><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:black"><br clear="all">
<br clear="all">
<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(243,243,243)">* </span></span><a href="https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2FGraphics%2FSVG&data=05%7C01%7Cbrutzman%40nps.edu%7C7b39d12b82984d1d2ad108da9e6019d9%7C6d936231a51740ea9199f7578963378e%7C0%7C0%7C637996432852179194%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=UmnAGECEoVx1N3BEnfcG1Wz9waRdHai%2Bo2q6Jak7Du4%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;text-decoration:none;color:royalblue">https://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG</span></a><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:black"><br clear="all">
<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(243,243,243)">* "SVG is a markup language for
describing two-dimensional graphics applications and images, and a set of
related graphics script interfaces."</span><br clear="all">
<br clear="all">
<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(243,243,243)">Dick estimation: thinks SVG is a 2D
scene-graph definition language. It can result as an image, though so can X3D.</span><br clear="all">
<br clear="all">
<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(243,243,243)">This issue suggests that SVG be listed as a
recommended (optional) format that can be rendered as an ImageTexture, using
the default presentation settings of the SVG model.</span><br clear="all">
<br clear="all">
<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(243,243,243)">Of note is that browsers are not forbidden
from implementing SVG as an ImageTexture format, and also that SVG-to-PNG
converters are commonplace.</span><br clear="all">
<br clear="all">
<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(243,243,243)">Of further note is that the DPS minutes
already showed a use case for SVG as ImageTexture, namely conversion of
metadata information as a carefully laid-out annotation image that is
billboarded in context. Having direct SVG rendering would eliminate the
offscreen conversion step, permitting direct integration of X3D models with
other HTML/SVG web graphics.</span><br clear="all">
<br clear="all">
<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(243,243,243)">Concern: don't want to overcomplicate the
existing ImageTexture functionality as a 2D array of pixels. Once generation of
pixels becomes a computational process, this is different functionality for the
ImageTexture node. This might raise further concerns about impact of
ImageTexture computational complexity in various profiles (such as Interchange
Profile).</span><br clear="all">
<br clear="all">
<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(243,243,243)">Possible alternate: define SvgTexture node?
What fields would it have?</span><br clear="all" style="font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial;word-spacing:0px">
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.25in"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(243,243,243);color:black">Suggested possible resolution:</span><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:black"><br clear="all">
<br clear="all">
<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(243,243,243)">a. Browsers are welcome to implement
ImageTexture as an allowed url format if they see fit,</span><br clear="all">
<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(243,243,243)">b. SvgTexture ought to be designed and
considered as a possible new node,</span><br clear="all">
<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(243,243,243)">c. ComposedImageTexture (or somesuch) might be
designed and considered as an even-more general possibility for comuputational
2D imagery,</span><br clear="all">
<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(243,243,243)">d. Following further practical experience,
defer any specification-change recommendations to future X3D4.1.</span></span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div style="border-style:none none solid;border-bottom-width:1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 1pt;border-bottom-color:windowtext">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(243,243,243);color:black"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<ol start="2" type="a">
<li class="MsoNormal">Mantis <span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(243,243,243);color:black">1401: aligning X3D4
LineProperties with Quality Information Framework (QIF) specification</span><u></u><u></u></li>
</ol>
<p><a href="https://www.web3d.org/member-only/mantis/view.php?id=1401" target="_blank">https://www.web3d.org/member-only/mantis/view.php?id=1401</a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.25in"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(243,243,243);color:black">Suggested resolution:</span><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:black"><br clear="all">
<br clear="all">
<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(243,243,243)">a. The concepts are directly aligned and
overlapping, with some additions by QIF.</span><br clear="all">
<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(243,243,243)">b. This ISO standard does not appear to have
been considered by SC24 or JTC1.</span><br clear="all">
<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(243,243,243)">c. Close scrutiny of both terms and
definitions needs to be performed before any changes might be recommended.</span><br clear="all">
<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(243,243,243)">d. If changes are indeed warranted and
acceptable, then they likely need to first considered as part of the Registry
of Items, specifically entries for linestyle and hatchstyle.</span><br clear="all">
<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(243,243,243)">e. At that point, amendment of X3D to stay
aligned with Registry of Items (or possibly add further styles independently)
can be considered.</span><br clear="all">
<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(243,243,243)">f. Defer to X3D 4.1.</span><br clear="all">
<br clear="all">
<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(243,243,243)">Meanwhile note in Web3D current ballot
comments the need to fix the table erratum previously noted.</span></span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div style="border-style:none none solid;border-bottom-width:1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 1pt;border-bottom-color:windowtext">
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<ol start="3" type="a">
<li class="MsoNormal">Mantis <span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(243,243,243);color:black">1192: 07.2.2
Bindable children nodes - Undefined results if bindable node is under
Switch or LOD is problematic</span><u></u><u></u></li>
</ol>
<p><a href="https://www.web3d.org/member-only/mantis/view.php?id=1192#bugnotes" target="_blank">https://www.web3d.org/member-only/mantis/view.php?id=1192#bugnotes</a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<div style="border-style:none none solid;border-bottom-width:1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 1pt;border-bottom-color:windowtext">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(235,235,235);color:black">Comment on 19775-1: Abstract X3D Definitions - V3.3</span><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:black"><br clear="all">
<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(235,235,235)">7.2.2 Bindable children nodes</span><br clear="all">
</span><a href="http://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19775-1/V3.3/Part01/components/core.html#BindableChildrenNodes" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;text-decoration:none;background-color:rgb(235,235,235);color:royalblue">http://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19775-1/V3.3/Part01/components/core.html#BindableChildrenNodes</span></a><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:black"><br clear="all">
<br clear="all">
<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(235,235,235)">-----------------</span><br clear="all">
<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(235,235,235)">Subject: Undefined results if bindable node is
under Switch or LOD is problematic</span><br clear="all">
<br clear="all">
<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(235,235,235)">Spec sayeth:</span><br clear="all">
<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(235,235,235)">"The results are undefined if a bindable
node is bound and is the child of an LOD, Switch, or any node or prototype that
disables its children."</span><br clear="all">
<br clear="all">
<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(235,235,235)">This leads to all manner of inconsistent
problems among scenes. It also means that Inline node (which may or may not
include bindable nodes) has undefined behavior under LOD/Switch/etc.</span><br clear="all">
<br clear="all">
<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(235,235,235)">As a result, in addition to indeterminate X3D
browser behavior, it means that X3D scenes are not fully composable. That is
contrary to X3D design objectives.</span><br clear="all">
<br clear="all">
<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(235,235,235)">Different prose and deterministic guidelines
is needed in this section that provides clear rules for binding/unbinding nodes
when they become active within LOD/Switch/etc. Small adaptations to current
binding rules can likely address this problem satisfactorily.</span><br clear="all">
<br clear="all">
<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(235,235,235)">Related: Mantis issue 749</span></span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(235,235,235);color:black"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(235,235,235);color:black">April 29:</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(243,243,243);color:black">Analysis during X3D Working Group call:</span><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:black"><br clear="all">
<br clear="all">
<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(243,243,243)">a. Switch would keep each binding stack
aligned with whichever child was active, thereby binding and unbinding nodes
whenever the Switch level is modified.</span><br clear="all">
<br clear="all">
<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(243,243,243)">b. LOD would have all of its child bindable
nodes on the binding stack throughout, so that user experience was consistent.
For example, it would make no sense for Viewpoints to get arbitrarily unbound
and bound, based on range to viewer, as a user independently navigated through
a scene.</span><br clear="all">
<br clear="all">
<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(243,243,243)">c. LOD attempting to maintain author intent
has access to all Viewpoint nodes on binding stack, and range-to-viewer LOD
transitions are either flexible suggestions (browser-optimization control) or
rigidly enforced (forceTransitions field is TRUE). Thus if a node is
subsequently bound by user in a different inactive LOD child branch, then that
binding event is honored and that LOD child branch becomes the active child
branch. This binding event (and changed LOD child branch selection) takes
precedence over browser range/performance considerations, and also takes
precedence over whatever value is provided in forceTransitions field. (Example:
selecting a room Viewpoint while in a large building model).</span><br clear="all">
<br clear="all">
<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(243,243,243)">d. NavigationInfo, Background and Fog binding
stacks and responses to binding events should behave identically to Viewpoint.
Variations would be exceedingly complex and not understandable. Consistency
means that author intent and user action always take precedence, for Switch and
LOD response.</span><br clear="all">
<br clear="all">
<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(243,243,243)">Spec editors work on integrating these
principles as specification prose (we are close already) and report back
recommended changes to X3D working group.</span><br clear="all">
<br clear="all">
<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(243,243,243)">Don's opinion: this will significantly help
user-sensible scalability of huge (perhaps Metaverse-scale) models using many
Inline and prototype nodes, enabling predictable and performant navigation and
traversal throughout.</span></span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(235,235,235);color:black"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(235,235,235);color:black">Today’s session.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(235,235,235);color:black"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(243,243,243);color:black">Alternatives deserving working-review consensus:</span><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:black"><br clear="all">
<br clear="all">
<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(243,243,243)">a. Recommending this clarification of
undefined prior specification prose might add important value, or might be
construed as a technical change to X3D4.0 that possibly requires future
re-balloting as another X3D 4.0 DIS (which is not an acceptable outcome).</span><br clear="all">
<br clear="all">
<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(243,243,243)">b. If not balloted then this becomes an X3D4.1
issue.</span><br clear="all">
<br clear="all">
<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(243,243,243)">c. Web3D might consider some alternative
approach to strongly encourage adoption of this clarified approach in order to
further encourage greater scalability of multi-world environments, and better
alignment with shared Metaverse design imperatives. For example, are we
creating a Best Practices Pending X3D 4.1 Approval document of some sort?</span></span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">2.
We only have 4 total issues to review as planned Web3D comments. This
will occur during a single working-group meeting, 7 OCT.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Deadline
for X3D Ballot comments:<u></u><u></u></p>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal">OCT, Web3D comments to INCITS (U.S. National
Standards Body<u></u><u></u></li>
<li class="MsoNormal">TBD OCT, INCITS comments to SC24<u></u><u></u></li>
<li class="MsoNormal">4 NOV, SC24 comments to ISO<u></u><u></u></li>
</ul>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">No
meeting currently planned for 30 SEP.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">3.
Bonus round: we worked on the “layer” diagram from recent meetings a bit
more. Latest X3dApplicationStackLayerExamples is attached, all comments
welcome.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Have
fun with X3D!<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New""> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New"">all the best, Don</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New"">-- </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New"">Don Brutzman Naval
Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br <a href="mailto:brutzman@nps.edu" style="font-family:"Courier New"" target="_blank">brutzman@nps.edu</a></span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New"">Watkins 270, MOVES
Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA +1.831.656.2149</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New"">X3D graphics, virtual
worlds, Navy robotics https://</span> <span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New""><a href="http://faculty.nps.edu/brutzman" style="font-family:"Courier New"" target="_blank">faculty.nps.edu/brutzman</a></span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">_______________________________________________<br>
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</div>
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