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<body lang="EN-US" link="blue" style="overflow-wrap:break-word; word-break: break-word;word-wrap:break-word" vlink="purple"><div class="mail_android_message" style="line-height: 1; padding: 0.5em">Good morning,<br/><br/>Thank you for your feed back.<br/><br/>Yes, I agree, while "your"*) diagram is a thoroughly compiled list of technologies that are used together with X3D, "my"*) diagram is a rough overview about the possibilities we have at the client implementation of X3D applications.<br/><br/>May I add a few notes?<br/><br/>1) I tried to introduce the term "Web3D Browser", which is not (yet) commonly accepted<br/><br/>2) we should really make a difference between "X3D Scene" and "X3D Application". While X3D scenes should be completely independent of underlying technologies, the X3D application may be "native", "portable" or "web based" (or any combination, depending on which type(s) of Web3D Browsers is/are used/supported by the X3D application)<br/><br/>3) "My" diagram is a "potential" stack. As far as I know, we don't yet have Web3D Browsers that are (partially) implemented in WASM or based on <a href="http://Node.js">Node.js</a>.<br/><br/>4) Neither "your" nor "my" diagram tackles server implementations. Only clients are considered.<br/><br/>All the best<br/>Christoph<br/><br/>*) i put quotation marks around "your" and "my", because from a philosophical point of view, everything happening on the public list are actually "our" efforts :-)<br/><br/>--<br/>Diese Nachricht wurde von meinem Android Mobiltelefon mit GMX Mail gesendet.</div><div class="mail_android_quote" style="line-height: 1; padding: 0.3em"><html><body>Am 25.09.22, 01:54 schrieb "Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV)" <brutzman@nps.edu>:</body></html><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0.8ex 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
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<p class="MsoNormal">Christoph, thanks for your efforts and your work on this diagram.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Since there are many ways to put together an application stack that utilizes X3D, we are striving for flexibility.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>Not a goal: mandating a best or recommended practice. That is unhelpful.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Regarding purpose statement, our best phrasing suggested so far is </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<ul style="margin-top:0in" type="disc">
<li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0in;mso-list:l5 level1 lfo7">“X3D is interoperable with diverse technologies, providing multiple choices to developers.”</li>
</ul>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Am avoiding a layer for programming languages – there are many, sometimes with several used together, and with different configurations between developers and servers and clients. So including such a layer in a general diagram seems like an unnecessary complication/confusion.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I hope you think that your diagram has many similarities with this more-general attempt. Vive la difference…</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Hope this helps, have fun with X3D! 8)</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">all the best, Don</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">-- </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">Don Brutzman Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br brutzman@nps.edu</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">Watkins 270, MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA +1.831.656.2149</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">X3D graphics, virtual worlds, Navy robotics https://</span> <span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">faculty.nps.edu/brutzman</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Christoph Valentin <christoph.valentin@gmx.at> <br><b>Sent:</b> Saturday, September 24, 2022 11:16 AM<br><b>To:</b> John Carlson <yottzumm@gmail.com>; Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <brutzman@nps.edu><br><b>Cc:</b> X3D Public Mailing List (x3d-public@web3d.org) <x3d-public@web3d.org><br><b>Subject:</b> Aw: Re: [x3d-public] X3D Working Group meeting 23 SEP 2022: X3D Application Stack Layers Alternatives diagram refinement</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:12.0pt;background:#004679"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:yellow">NPS WARNING: *external sender* verify before acting.</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Hi all together,</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"> </span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">May I ask one question?</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"> </span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">What is the purpose of the diagram?</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"> </span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">I understood the diagram as a help for decision, if someone likes to implement an "X3D Application" and wants to know, which kind of expertise they will need.</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">True?</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Kr,</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">P.S.: on the other hand, the diagram I suggested earlier this week, was just a "rough overview for starters", about how X3D fits into any computer system.</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Gesendet:</span></b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"> Samstag, 24. September 2022 um 20:05 Uhr<br><b>Von:</b> "John Carlson" <<a href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com">yottzumm@gmail.com</a>><br><b>An:</b> "Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV)" <<a href="mailto:brutzman@nps.edu">brutzman@nps.edu</a>><br><b>Cc:</b> "X3D Public Mailing List (<a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org">x3d-public@web3d.org</a>)" <<a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org">x3d-public@web3d.org</a>><br><b>Betreff:</b> Re: [x3d-public] X3D Working Group meeting 23 SEP 2022: X3D Application Stack Layers Alternatives diagram refinement</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">More verbs:</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Require, Design, Implement, Release/Produce/Emit, Consume/Collect.</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">More nouns:</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Source, Sink</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">On Sat, Sep 24, 2022 at 1:00 PM John Carlson <<a href="mailto:yottzumm@gmail.com">yottzumm@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Perhaps we should focus on Author/Creator, Read/View, Manipulate/Update/Edit/Transform/Convert, Debug/Test, Secure, Compress/Decompress, Publish/Evangelize, Buy/Browse, Sell/Purvey, more verbs. … Archive</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">On all our main classes:</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Standards, Object Models, Conversion Programs, Worlds, Scenes, Models, Examples, Renderings, Bindings, Encodings, Schemas, Files, Tools/Browsers/Apps/Libraries</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">So on one axis we put verbs, and on other axis we put nouns/classes.</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">I’m not really pushing my way. I think it better demonstrates where work needs to be done.</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">In particular, our standards don’t refer to monetization at all. GNU at least advocates selling support, there’s Patreon, Odysee and 3D model stores.</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Thanks, Don, for helping get beyond simple CRUD-GR!</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Woohoo!</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">John</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">On Sat, Sep 24, 2022 at 10:12 AM Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV) <<a href="mailto:brutzman@nps.edu">brutzman@nps.edu</a>> wrote:</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">John wrote:</span></p>
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<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l3 level1 lfo1"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">“Looked at layers and alternative attachment. I’m wondering why there’s two boxes for converting?“</span></li>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Good point. There are two similar concepts I’m trying to distinguish:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-indent:.5in"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">(a) 3D models can be converted for reuse offline,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-indent:.5in"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">(b) translator libraries offer programming-library options for applications.</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Attached please find this morning’s update. Added a caption for further explanation:</span></p>
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<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo2"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">“X3D is interoperable with diverse technologies, providing multiple choices to developers.”</span></li>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Complicated territory – does this help describe the many options available with X3D? Am striving for clarity and simplicity, if possible. Hopefully this diagram continues to improve, and might help us show the X3D value propositions more widely, including to Metaverse Standards Forum participants.</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Further review and comment by all is welcome.</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">all the best, Don</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">-- </span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">Don Brutzman Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br <a href="mailto:brutzman@nps.edu">brutzman@nps.edu</a></span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">Watkins 270, MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA +1.831.656.2149</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">X3D graphics, virtual worlds, Navy robotics https://</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"> </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""><a href="http://faculty.nps.edu/brutzman">faculty.nps.edu/brutzman</a></span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"> Brutzman, Donald (Don) (CIV)<br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, September 23, 2022 11:43 AM<br><b>To:</b> X3D Public Mailing List (<a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org">x3d-public@web3d.org</a>) <<a href="mailto:x3d-public@web3d.org">x3d-public@web3d.org</a>><br><b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:brutzman@nps.edu">brutzman@nps.edu</a><br><b>Subject:</b> X3D Working Group meeting 23 SEP 2022: Mantis issues review, ballot deadlines, X3D Application Stack Layer Examples diagram</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Attendees: Dick Puk, Don Brutzman</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">1. We first reviewed the two recently posted Mantis issues regarding SVG and QIF. We also looked at a Mantis issue posted earlier this year relating to scalable composition of really large X3D worlds. Selected details follow.</span></p>
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<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l4 level1 lfo3"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Mantis </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black;background:#F3F3F3">1400: add Scalable Vector Graphics (SVG) to recommended image formats for ImageTexture</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"></span></li>
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<p><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"><a href="https://www.web3d.org/member-only/mantis/view.php?id=1400">https://www.web3d.org/member-only/mantis/view.php?id=1400</a></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.25in"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black;background:#F3F3F3">SVG references:</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"><br><br></span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black;background:#F3F3F3">* </span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"><a href="https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2FGraphics%2FSVG&data=05%7C01%7Cbrutzman%40nps.edu%7C56427b68683a41b5c16908da9e58db57%7C6d936231a51740ea9199f7578963378e%7C0%7C0%7C637996401729272385%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=dVALssixOo3hZi9azL3LFslSWp2IR0cu7CvXx01Fxg4%3D&reserved=0"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;text-decoration:none">https://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG</span></a><br></span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black;background:#F3F3F3">* "SVG is a markup language for describing two-dimensional graphics applications and images, and a set of related graphics script interfaces."</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"><br><br><span style="background:#F3F3F3">Dick estimation: thinks SVG is a 2D scene-graph definition language. It can result as an image, though so can X3D.</span><br><br><span style="background:#F3F3F3">This issue suggests that SVG be listed as a recommended (optional) format that can be rendered as an ImageTexture, using the default presentation settings of the SVG model.</span><br><br><span style="background:#F3F3F3">Of note is that browsers are not forbidden from implementing SVG as an ImageTexture format, and also that SVG-to-PNG converters are commonplace.</span><br><br><span style="background:#F3F3F3">Of further note is that the DPS minutes already showed a use case for SVG as ImageTexture, namely conversion of metadata information as a carefully laid-out annotation image that is billboarded in context. Having direct SVG rendering would eliminate the offscreen conversion step, permitting direct integration of X3D models with other HTML/SVG web graphics.</span><br><br><span style="background:#F3F3F3">Concern: don't want to overcomplicate the existing ImageTexture functionality as a 2D array of pixels. Once generation of pixels becomes a computational process, this is different functionality for the ImageTexture node. This might raise further concerns about impact of ImageTexture computational complexity in various profiles (such as Interchange Profile).</span><br><br><span style="background:#F3F3F3">Possible alternate: define SvgTexture node? What fields would it have?</span></span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.25in"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black;background:#F3F3F3">Suggested possible resolution:</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"><br><br></span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black;background:#F3F3F3">a. Browsers are welcome to implement ImageTexture as an allowed url format if they see fit,</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"><br><span style="background:#F3F3F3">b. SvgTexture ought to be designed and considered as a possible new node,</span><br><span style="background:#F3F3F3">c. ComposedImageTexture (or somesuch) might be designed and considered as an even-more general possibility for comuputational 2D imagery,</span><br><span style="background:#F3F3F3">d. Following further practical experience, defer any specification-change recommendations to future X3D4.1.</span></span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"></span></p>
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<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l6 level1 lfo4"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Mantis </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black;background:#F3F3F3">1401: aligning X3D4 LineProperties with Quality Information Framework (QIF) specification</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"></span></li>
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<p><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"><a href="https://www.web3d.org/member-only/mantis/view.php?id=1401">https://www.web3d.org/member-only/mantis/view.php?id=1401</a></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.25in"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black;background:#F3F3F3">Suggested resolution:</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"><br><br></span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black;background:#F3F3F3">a. The concepts are directly aligned and overlapping, with some additions by QIF.</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"><br><span style="background:#F3F3F3">b. This ISO standard does not appear to have been considered by SC24 or JTC1.</span><br><span style="background:#F3F3F3">c. Close scrutiny of both terms and definitions needs to be performed before any changes might be recommended.</span><br><span style="background:#F3F3F3">d. If changes are indeed warranted and acceptable, then they likely need to first considered as part of the Registry of Items, specifically entries for linestyle and hatchstyle.</span><br><span style="background:#F3F3F3">e. At that point, amendment of X3D to stay aligned with Registry of Items (or possibly add further styles independently) can be considered.</span><br><span style="background:#F3F3F3">f. Defer to X3D 4.1.</span><br><br><span style="background:#F3F3F3">Meanwhile note in Web3D current ballot comments the need to fix the table erratum previously noted.</span></span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"></span></p>
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<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo5"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Mantis </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black;background:#F3F3F3">1192: 07.2.2 Bindable children nodes - Undefined results if bindable node is under Switch or LOD is problematic</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"></span></li>
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<p><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"><a href="https://www.web3d.org/member-only/mantis/view.php?id=1192#bugnotes">https://www.web3d.org/member-only/mantis/view.php?id=1192#bugnotes</a></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black;background:#EBEBEB">Comment on 19775-1: Abstract X3D Definitions - V3.3</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"><br></span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black;background:#EBEBEB">7.2.2 Bindable children nodes</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"><br><a href="http://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19775-1/V3.3/Part01/components/core.html#BindableChildrenNodes"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;background:#EBEBEB;text-decoration:none">http://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/19775-1/V3.3/Part01/components/core.html#BindableChildrenNodes</span></a><br><br></span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black;background:#EBEBEB">-----------------</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"><br><span style="background:#EBEBEB">Subject: Undefined results if bindable node is under Switch or LOD is problematic</span><br><br><span style="background:#EBEBEB">Spec sayeth:</span><br><span style="background:#EBEBEB">"The results are undefined if a bindable node is bound and is the child of an LOD, Switch, or any node or prototype that disables its children."</span><br><br><span style="background:#EBEBEB">This leads to all manner of inconsistent problems among scenes. It also means that Inline node (which may or may not include bindable nodes) has undefined behavior under LOD/Switch/etc.</span><br><br><span style="background:#EBEBEB">As a result, in addition to indeterminate X3D browser behavior, it means that X3D scenes are not fully composable. That is contrary to X3D design objectives.</span><br><br><span style="background:#EBEBEB">Different prose and deterministic guidelines is needed in this section that provides clear rules for binding/unbinding nodes when they become active within LOD/Switch/etc. Small adaptations to current binding rules can likely address this problem satisfactorily.</span><br><br><span style="background:#EBEBEB">Related: Mantis issue 749</span></span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black;background:#EBEBEB"> </span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black;background:#EBEBEB">April 29:</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black;background:#F3F3F3">Analysis during X3D Working Group call:</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"><br><br></span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black;background:#F3F3F3">a. Switch would keep each binding stack aligned with whichever child was active, thereby binding and unbinding nodes whenever the Switch level is modified.</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"><br><br><span style="background:#F3F3F3">b. LOD would have all of its child bindable nodes on the binding stack throughout, so that user experience was consistent. For example, it would make no sense for Viewpoints to get arbitrarily unbound and bound, based on range to viewer, as a user independently navigated through a scene.</span><br><br><span style="background:#F3F3F3">c. LOD attempting to maintain author intent has access to all Viewpoint nodes on binding stack, and range-to-viewer LOD transitions are either flexible suggestions (browser-optimization control) or rigidly enforced (forceTransitions field is TRUE). Thus if a node is subsequently bound by user in a different inactive LOD child branch, then that binding event is honored and that LOD child branch becomes the active child branch. This binding event (and changed LOD child branch selection) takes precedence over browser range/performance considerations, and also takes precedence over whatever value is provided in forceTransitions field. (Example: selecting a room Viewpoint while in a large building model).</span><br><br><span style="background:#F3F3F3">d. NavigationInfo, Background and Fog binding stacks and responses to binding events should behave identically to Viewpoint. Variations would be exceedingly complex and not understandable. Consistency means that author intent and user action always take precedence, for Switch and LOD response.</span><br><br><span style="background:#F3F3F3">Spec editors work on integrating these principles as specification prose (we are close already) and report back recommended changes to X3D working group.</span><br><br><span style="background:#F3F3F3">Don's opinion: this will significantly help user-sensible scalability of huge (perhaps Metaverse-scale) models using many Inline and prototype nodes, enabling predictable and performant navigation and traversal throughout.</span></span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black;background:#EBEBEB"> </span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black;background:#EBEBEB">Today’s session.</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black;background:#EBEBEB"> </span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black;background:#F3F3F3">Alternatives deserving working-review consensus:</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"><br><br></span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black;background:#F3F3F3">a. Recommending this clarification of undefined prior specification prose might add important value, or might be construed as a technical change to X3D4.0 that possibly requires future re-balloting as another X3D 4.0 DIS (which is not an acceptable outcome).</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"><br><br><span style="background:#F3F3F3">b. If not balloted then this becomes an X3D4.1 issue.</span><br><br><span style="background:#F3F3F3">c. Web3D might consider some alternative approach to strongly encourage adoption of this clarified approach in order to further encourage greater scalability of multi-world environments, and better alignment with shared Metaverse design imperatives. For example, are we creating a Best Practices Pending X3D 4.1 Approval document of some sort?</span></span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">2. We only have 4 total issues to review as planned Web3D comments. This will occur during a single working-group meeting, 7 OCT.</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Deadline for X3D Ballot comments:</span></p>
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<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo6"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">OCT, Web3D comments to INCITS (U.S. National Standards Body</span></li>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">No meeting currently planned for 30 SEP.</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">3. Bonus round: we worked on the “layer” diagram from recent meetings a bit more. Latest X3dApplicationStackLayerExamples is attached, all comments welcome.</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Have fun with X3D!</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">all the best, Don</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">-- </span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">Don Brutzman Naval Postgraduate School, Code USW/Br <a href="mailto:brutzman@nps.edu">brutzman@nps.edu</a></span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">Watkins 270, MOVES Institute, Monterey CA 93943-5000 USA +1.831.656.2149</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">X3D graphics, virtual worlds, Navy robotics https://</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"> </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""><a href="http://faculty.nps.edu/brutzman">faculty.nps.edu/brutzman</a></span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"></span></p>
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